What psychic discipline to use?

[deathstarray]

Hi all

 

Just wondering if you only have one librarian in your force what psychic discipline would or do you use?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Divination

[irwit]

What's up with santic? Some cool powers in there no? Cleansing flame, goi, vortex. Certainly more offensive?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Sanctic has a number of issues which make it difficult to use;

 

- Primaris (Banishment) is literally useless outside of one or two matchups (where it's pretty amazing). 

- 'Hammerhand' is redundant because all our infantry units have it by default

- 'Sanctuary' is less useful than 'Forewarning' from Divination

- 'Purge Soul' is situational and is one of the less powerful sniper spells in the game (Mind War kinda outclasses them all but it's still pretty meh)

- 'Cleansing Flame' is great, but it's a random roll and you already get it on Purifiers by default

- 'Vortex' is high risk high reward. You risk not being able to reliably cast it, or having it backfire horribly

- 'Gate' is a fantastic mobility power, but it does have some drawbacks (scatter, being placed into Ongoing Reserve potentially)

 

By way of comparison with Divination:

 

- Primaris (Prescience) is arguably the best Primaris in the game, and one of the best psychic powers in the game. Even at WC2, it's well worth throwing 4+ dice at

- 'Precognition' is fantastic on combat psykers, and our Librarians and Grand Masters are formidable warriors

- 'Forewarning' is a great defensive power that is equally good at shielding our PA units as it is our TDA, and on DK's its a little absurd (as they can turn on their default 'Sanctuary' as well to go to a 3+ invul, which helps a lot in keeping them alive)

- 'Perfect Timing' offers Ignore Cover, which is a huge buff to our firepower, in some ways more powerful than re-rolls. This is especially relevant to taking on Jinking units, who no longer get their broken cover saves. Stealth and Shrouded are likewise useless. If we had any way of getting cheap AP2 spam, this would be kinda broken. 

- 'Misfortune' grants Rending to all attacks that target the affected enemy unit. This is in many ways more powerful than its old form (force re-roll of saves). It makes storm bolters and in particular gatling psilencers much more effective, and even gives you a modicum of anti-vehicle (although you should already have enough psycannon anyway). 

- 'Foreboding' is a situational power that you only really use against other melee armies. In that context, it's pretty terrifying. Shooting normally on Overwatch and granting Counter-Attack makes already formidable units like Terminators and Purifiers a death wish to charge, even with superior numbers. 

- 'Scriers Gaze' is the most situational of all psychic powers, and it's a shame because if powers weren't random, we'd be picking this every game. Provided you have it, you essentially get a free Comms Array and re-rolls to which edge your Outflankers come on (we have none so the second part doesn't matter). 

 

I feel in larger games, with a second Librarian, you can take the Domina Liber and roll mostly on 'Sanctic' (still roll one power on Divination so you have a second 'Prescience' source though). But if you only have on Librarian, you need Divination's potent Primaris and very flexible powers. 

[irwit]

Probably one of the most well written, non argumentative, answers to a question on the internet the world has ever seen :)

 

Cheers :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No worries man :) glad to be helpful

[Adeptus]

I agree that Divination is the strongest choice for our Librarians. But I just can't seem to drag myself away from Sanctic!

[jeffersonian000]

If you have one Librarian, go Sanctic. If you take two, or a BC/GM, then Divination on the second HQ. Sanctic is too powerful to waste on re-rolls. We live in a 40k universe that requires Gate and Vortex and Cleansing Flame and Sanctuary.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you have one Librarian, go Sanctic. If you take two, or a BC/GM, then Divination on the second HQ. Sanctic is too powerful to waste on re-rolls. We live in a 40k universe that requires Gate and Vortex and Cleansing Flame and Sanctuary.

 

Not every list requires 'Gate', 'Vortex' or 'Cleansing Flame'. Re-rolls is a very powerful ability, I wouldn't consider it a waste. We're a tiny army that can't afford to miss. Also, Divination itself offers far more than just it's Primaris. 

[jeffersonian000]

 

If you have one Librarian, go Sanctic. If you take two, or a BC/GM, then Divination on the second HQ. Sanctic is too powerful to waste on re-rolls. We live in a 40k universe that requires Gate and Vortex and Cleansing Flame and Sanctuary.

 

Not every list requires 'Gate', 'Vortex' or 'Cleansing Flame'. Re-rolls is a very powerful ability, I wouldn't consider it a waste. We're a tiny army that can't afford to miss. Also, Divination itself offers far more than just it's Primaris.

If you want to not play Sanctic, play Ultramarines. They get more out of not using Sanctic than we do. However, GK are designed to use Sanctic, gain great utility out of it, with Sanctic fixing inherent issues with GK. No storm shields? Sanctuary! Need mobility? Gate! More firepower? Cleansing Flames! Snipe the character? Purge Soul! Too tough to hurt? Vortex! We already get Hammerhand to pump up the damage, and Banishment for that one time you faced Daemons, you know, like every tournament?

 

Yes, Divination let's you re-roll pretty much everything when it's not ignoring cover, re-roll your dice, force re-roll you opponent's dice. But what's better: re-roll a 5++ or a flat 4++? Ignore cover or Gate? Force your opponent to re-roll saves or denying them saves?

 

I'm not saying Divination doesn't have a place in a GK list, I'm saying Divination is second place to Sanctic's first.

 

SJ

[Adeptus]

I find that Divination is always useful.

 

But I also find that when I really need certain Sanctic powers, notably Sanctuary, Gate and Cleansing Flame, then nothing else will really do.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you want to not play Sanctic, play Ultramarines. They get more out of not using Sanctic than we do. However, GK are designed to use Sanctic, gain great utility out of it, with Sanctic fixing inherent issues with GK. No storm shields? Sanctuary! Need mobility? Gate! More firepower? Cleansing Flames! Snipe the character? Purge Soul! Too tough to hurt? Vortex! We already get Hammerhand to pump up the damage, and Banishment for that one time you faced Daemons, you know, like every tournament?

 

I agree we're designed to use Sanctic. That's why we get most of the good powers by default. 

 

'Sanctuary' is the exact same buff as 'Forewarning' on all our units. Except in the case of PA and DK's, where the former get a 4+ invul instead of a useless 6+, and DK's can stack 'Forewarning' with their in-built 'Sanctuary' cast for a 3+ invul. This is what I mean. 'Forewarning' beats 'Sanctuary' at its own game. The only situation where 'Sanctuary' is better is on Draigo or Grand Masters (the former has a storm shield, the latter Iron Halo). 

 

'Gate' is great but it's wrong to gloss over it's drawbacks. Failing to cast it at a critical moment can completely ruin your strategy. It's one of those Hail Mary powers, where if you need it, you REALLY need it, and if you don't need it you shouldn't even waste dice trying. Also, you can still scatter off-target, or Mishap into Ongoing Reserves. 

 

'Cleansing Flame' is already found on Purifiers, who are a solid unit in their own right. 'Cleansing Flame' is the best Nova in the game, but it's still primarily an anti-infantry weapon. We don't exactly lack anti-infantry tech, although auto-hitting, LOS-ignoring, Ignore Cover heavy flamer is very nice. But that's just it. It helps us in matchups or against units we already handle fairly well. The problem units in the the meta-game are either immune or will shrug it off easily. Psychic powers are generally taken to bolster weaknesses or punch through enemy defenses. 'Cleansing Flame' handles infantry, FMC's, weaker Flyers and Jinking annoyances fairly well. As amazing as it is, it's important to remember it has drawbacks. 

 

'Purge Soul' doesn't snipe characters for a number of reasons. Firstly, and perhaps most absurdly, you can still Look Out Sir! the wound(s) it causes. On a 2+, any IC can just pass that wound to a grunt standing next to them. Secondly, causing 1 wound isn't enough to kill most characters. Thirdly, its only 24" range, so you're probably only 1-2 turns away from a charge anyway (and you can much more easily kill characters in challenges, we're GK after all). 'Purge Soul' is mainly used for sniping heavy and special weapon wielders, or 1-wound squad leaders with powerfists (a 4+ Look Out Sir! can still screw you, although it's far less likely than an IC dodging). I should also mention it allows invulnerable and Feel No Pain saves. Another factor to consider is that being a focused witchfire, it's actually WC2 in usage (ie you need two successes to actually allocate to the model you want, otherwise it hits the closest). It's also Leadership reliant, which means you can fluff the roll off. A lot of random failure points, just to cause a single wound. 

 

'Vortex' is WC3, so on any turn you cast it, you're gonna be throwing a lot of dice at it. Even with Liber re-rolling 1's, it's difficult. Also, it's got tiny range (12"), it scatters (potentially back on you, which is devastating to say the least), and if you fail your test, you auto-Perils (which can potentially kill your psyker). That said, I do like that its Destroyer and AP1, and it's Assault Blast as well. But it's very high risk high reward, and a further issue is being Witchfire (and thus triggering any enemy bonuses to Denying) and Vortex (ie it semi-randomly stays in play, and can potentially roll back on you). 

 

Yes, Divination let's you re-roll pretty much everything when it's not ignoring cover, re-roll your dice, force re-roll you opponent's dice. But what's better: re-roll a 5++ or a flat 4++? Ignore cover or Gate? Force your opponent to re-roll saves or denying them saves?

 

Well 'Misfortune' doesn't actually make them re-roll saves anyway, it grants Rending to all your attacks on the target. 

 

'Perfect Timing' and 'Gate' are completely different powers, so I don't see the point in comparing them.

I'm not saying Divination doesn't have a place in a GK list, I'm saying Divination is second place to Sanctic's first. 

 

Which I disagree with entirely. Divination offers 5 out of 6 solid if not outstanding powers, and its Primaris is one of the best Blessings in the entire game (even Eldar get a worse version with 'Guide' on their racial lore). Sanctic has a worthless Primaris outside of Daemon matchups, 2 redundant powers, a worse 'Mind War', a mobility power that risks scatter off-course or Mishap into Reserve, a less effective 'Forewarning' that we already have on DK's anyway, and a very risky short-range Witchfire nuke that can backfire horribly in at least two ways. 

[Gaz1858]

Everyone is going to have a personal favourite when it comes to Psy Powers. For the OP id be thinking what does my army need and what is the meta where I am. If in your meta you face a lot of troop armies maybe trying for Cleansing flame would benefit you, but then maybe you already have 4 purifier squads and think it over kill. Maybe your running a deathstar so Telepathy and Invis would be a better roll or maybe your main opponent plays knights and you want Telekinesis.

 

Each table has its uses (pyromancy I don't think is used competitively, at least ive never seen it) but choose your Table dependant upon what you want to achieve and what you think has the greatest chance to be of benefit.

 

Personally I write up a list with a score next to each power as to how useful it will be to work out what to take. This can also be amended based on the army I am facing.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Everyone is going to have a personal favourite when it comes to Psy Powers. For the OP id be thinking what does my army need and what is the meta where I am. If in your meta you face a lot of troop armies maybe trying for Cleansing flame would benefit you, but then maybe you already have 4 purifier squads and think it over kill. Maybe your running a deathstar so Telepathy and Invis would be a better roll or maybe your main opponent plays knights and you want Telekinesis.

 

Each table has its uses (pyromancy I don't think is used competitively, at least ive never seen it) but choose your Table dependant upon what you want to achieve and what you think has the greatest chance to be of benefit.

 

Personally I write up a list with a score next to each power as to how useful it will be to work out what to take. This can also be amended based on the army I am facing.

 

Pyromancy isn't used because it's completely awful with no redeeming qualities. Telekinesis is pretty bad as well, but it still has Levitation and it's hilarious Psychic Maelstrom. 

 

We only get access to Sanctic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telepathy and Telekinesis. I wish we had Biomancy, it would make our options more varied. As is, we mostly roll on Divination or Sanctic, as meta game changes have made Telepathy weaker. Pyromancy and Telekinesis are just too weak to be effective, they don't have enough good powers to be worth it. 

[jeffersonian000]

Purge Soul is great for removing hidden power fists. Target model, roll off, most of the time the model dies. Not sure why people think you can only target characters, as the power specifically says model.

 

SJ

[Gaz1858]

For Telekinesis personally Id take it when playing a vehicle or Kinght army. Against hordes probably not. My reasoning for each power is below.

 

Primaris - Pretty bad

 

Crush - I actually quite like the idea of 2D6 S and D6 AP. not sure on whether its an auto hit or not due to ambiguity(for another thread!)

 

Objuration - Amazing against those Knights that have the gatling gun but Knights in general due to the number of shots they normally have. You'll see opponents trying to work out if its worth all those glancing hits on a 1. Gets hot on 20 shots plus a haywire hit that cannot be denied by the shield as it is a malediction not a witchfire.

 

Shockwave - While obviously not as good as Cleansing Flame the ability to get a nova is a good thing in general imo if you are rolling on this table. Plus pinning might cause a few headaches

 

Levitation - Good power. Nuff said

 

Telekine Dome - 5++ inv against shooting. Depends on whats in the unit getting the benefit but probably not much use to GK

 

Maelstrom - 12" S10 AP1 Barrage Large blast? Yes please!

 

So against knights Id say theres only 1 power (Shockwave) that isn't much use.  Again it is army dependant and Telekinesis is not ideal for other armies.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Purge Soul is great for removing hidden power fists. Target model, roll off, most of the time the model dies. Not sure why people think you can only target characters, as the power specifically says model.

 

I dunno, someone earlier in the thread said 'sniping characters', I was responding to them. But yeah I agree, for sniping special/heavy weapons or 1-wound squad leaders, it's decent. Feel No Pain and invul will still screw you though, which is annoying (as will Look Out Sir!, although as I mentioned it's less of an issue with squad leaders). 

Crush - I actually quite like the idea of 2D6 S and D6 AP. not sure on whether its an auto hit or not due to ambiguity(for another thread!)

 

It still has to roll to hit, like any non-Blast/Template/Nova Witchfire. Not usually an issue on our psykers (BS4), but it can screw you over. It's yet another reason why 'Prescience' is such an amazing power, you can re-roll to hit with other witchfire powers you cast. The random Strength and AP is annoying and makes it unreliable. 

Objuration - Amazing against those Knights that have the gatling gun but Knights in general due to the number of shots they normally have. You'll see opponents trying to work out if its worth all those glancing hits on a 1. Gets hot on 20 shots plus a haywire hit that cannot be denied by the shield as it is a malediction not a witchfire.

 

Yeah I have to agree this is very nice against vehicles, especially Knight-Titans or anything with a lot of shots (Pask in an Punisher for example). You have to roll it though. 

Shockwave - While obviously not as good as Cleansing Flame the ability to get a nova is a good thing in general imo if you are rolling on this table. Plus pinning might cause a few headaches

 

It's not even in the same discussion. Shockwave trades hitting power for Pinning, which is a meaningless effect against most armies. 

Levitation - Good power. Nuff said

 

Yeah it's pretty awesome to suddenly fly Terminators into people lol. But like Objuration, you need to roll it. It's the same problem 'Gate' has as well, in that the turns you don't really need it you won't cast it, but the turn you really need it, you have to throw a bunch of dice at it. It at least doesn't cause scatter and potential Mishap into Reserves. But yeah, a utility power, one of the better ones in the game IMO. 

Telekine Dome - 5++ inv against shooting. Depends on whats in the unit getting the benefit but probably not much use to GK

 

It's a lot better with Daemons or Imperial Guard. I do like how it changed from it's 6th edition form though. Now its like a better 'Shrouding' the enemy can't just negate instantly with broken Ignore Cover tech (markerlights, psychic powers etc). 

Maelstrom - 12" S10 AP1 Barrage Large blast? Yes please!

 

 

Yeah I like it more than 'Vortex' in some ways. Large Blast means you have less chance of missing entirely (a consistent problem with small blasts), and if it backfires it's not as bad as 'Vortex'. Barrage in particular is a very nice rule to have on a Witchfire. 

So against knights Id say theres only 1 power (Shockwave) that isn't much use.  Again it is army dependant and Telekinesis is not ideal for other armies.

 

It comes back to random powers. If we could pick and choose which powers to take (even if it meant you could only choose from a single lore), much different story. As is...the risk of rolling the situational or trash powers is a huge concern. 

[Captain Coolpants]

I always used to use divination. But using it just seemed a little. Lackluster. I KNOW it's actually a better discipline than sanctic, but I find myself having more fun with sanctic.

 

Divination let's you re-roll and grants you extra things and buffs, but sanctic let's you do cool things and basically gives you guns or teleport you around, Give you blast templates, give you essentially a 9" Apocalypse sized Flamer pie template, let's a normal guy punch holes in tanks!

 

 

Sanctic is more fun for me.

 

Nothing beats that feeling of pure dickery and awesomeness when you're bogged in combat, gate just out of combat, then throw a Vortex directly in the middle whilst they're all piled in xD

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I always used to use divination. But using it just seemed a little. Lackluster. I KNOW it's actually a better discipline than sanctic, but I find myself having more fun with sanctic. 

 

Divination let's you re-roll and grants you extra things and buffs, but sanctic let's you do cool things and basically gives you guns or teleport you around, Give you blast templates, give you essentially a 9" Apocalypse sized Flamer pie template, let's a normal guy punch holes in tanks!

 

 

Sanctic is more fun for me. 

 

Nothing beats that feeling of pure dickery and awesomeness when you're bogged in combat, gate just out of combat, then throw a Vortex directly in the middle whilst they're all piled in xD 

 

Sanctic a lot of fun, and it's why I reckon for your second Librarian, you should take the Domina Liber, Mastery 3 and roll mostly on Sanctic (still roll once on Divination for another 'Prescience' source). It's what I'll be doing in larger games. I have to agree, Divination is very reliable and a great toolbox...but Sanctic can take people off-guard with it's power moves. 

[casb1965]

 

 

If you have one Librarian, go Sanctic. If you take two, or a BC/GM, then Divination on the second HQ. Sanctic is too powerful to waste on re-rolls. We live in a 40k universe that requires Gate and Vortex and Cleansing Flame and Sanctuary.

Not every list requires 'Gate', 'Vortex' or 'Cleansing Flame'. Re-rolls is a very powerful ability, I wouldn't consider it a waste. We're a tiny army that can't afford to miss. Also, Divination itself offers far more than just it's Primaris.

If you want to not play Sanctic, play Ultramarines. They get more out of not using Sanctic than we do. However, GK are designed to use Sanctic, gain great utility out of it, with Sanctic fixing inherent issues with GK. No storm shields? Sanctuary! Need mobility? Gate! More firepower? Cleansing Flames! Snipe the character? Purge Soul! Too tough to hurt? Vortex! We already get Hammerhand to pump up the damage, and Banishment for that one time you faced Daemons, you know, like every tournament?

 

Yes, Divination let's you re-roll pretty much everything when it's not ignoring cover, re-roll your dice, force re-roll you opponent's dice. But what's better: re-roll a 5++ or a flat 4++? Ignore cover or Gate? Force your opponent to re-roll saves or denying them saves?

 

I'm not saying Divination doesn't have a place in a GK list, I'm saying Divination is second place to Sanctic's first.

 

SJ

 

 

5++ by 5%.

 

4++ = 50% chance of a save

5++ = 33% rerollable for another 22% chance = total chance = 55% chance of a save.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

5++ by 5%.

 

4++ = 50% chance of a save

5++ = 33% rerollable for another 22% chance = total chance = 55% chance of a save.

 

I'm not sure why that's relevant, but thank you all the same. 'Precognition' comes from Divination anyway, so it only strengthens the argument for it over Sanctic. 

[Lemon Legion]

Pyromancy, Cleanse the unholy! But seriously, it helps when your outnumbered and/or outgunned.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Pyromancy, Cleanse the unholy! But seriously, it helps when your outnumbered and/or outgunned. 

 

Not really. That's why we have storm bolters. And psycannon. And incinerators. And Purifiers. People who charge us get rekt, so unless you're Tyranids or Daemons and can print fresh chaff to throw at us, you won't tarpit. And that's before you add in psychic buffs. 

 

Our biggest issues are handling high AV (we can, but not very efficiently outside of melee), high Toughness (again, we rely heavily on melee and psychic powers), and annoying multi-wound with strong saves (TWC, Wraiths etc). Pyromancy doesn't help with any of those issues. Even the melta beam isn't very effective, due to it's mechanics. It's sad really. In Fantasy, Lore of Fire is at least okay for spamming S4 and S6 hits into people (in Fantasy magic attacks auto-hit too). In 40k, the meta is totally different and doesn't favour it. 

 

That said, we'll see how things shift. Deathstars are on the way out, because Necrons and Eldar rek them. We may see a return of MSU (several tournaments have featured such lists in their top brackets). Lictorshame for example relies heavily on MSU and suicidal tactics to achieve victory. In that context, Pyromancy might be okay. I still like 'Cleansing Flame' more, it's very reliable at what it does provided you successfully cast it. 

[Prot]

I'm completely torn.

I play both Grey Knights and Ultramarines. It had been a good 10 games or so since I pulled out Ultramarines, and I tolled Tiggy up on Prescience, which of course is great. But he gets fantastic mileage out of it with Centurions.

When I use it with my GK I'm thinking... what am I really re-rolling here? It's great to re-roll a bunch of stormbolters, and a Psycannon... maybe two, but it's not nearly the force multiplier with my GK that it is with my Ultra's.

But then I get into CC with the GK and all those re-rolls seem to really kick in here... especially with perhaps only a single hammer doing real damage in the squad.

With Divination the beauty is: guaranteed Prescience. Which as I describe above I feel gives my Ultra's a bit more use typically than my Grey Knights. However, remove cover? Or 4++ invuln? REALLY good stuff for both armies.

Then I pull out the Sanctic, and it does feel 'special' doesn't it? Draigo (granted he isn't in every game) sure likes it. Draigo and Sanctuary are basically the Peanut Butter and Chocolate of 40K.

And of course, my favorite:

+++VORTEX+++

It's so pretty, but don't stare directly at it. I don't think there is a 'funner' psychic power in the game. Have I killed my own dudes with it? Not that the record keepers on Titan know about. But unofficially? .... yea... a few guys stared at the pretty lights a little too long.

But I've also had amazing moments with Vortex.

What else do I love about Sanctic? Probably that it feels made for us. My biggest negative with it is the Primaris. The Primaris -feels- like something that should be included on a GK Librarian, not the Sanctic series.

In fact I'd go so far as to say next time around I'd bet they turn a 'variant' of Sanctic into Grey Knight only powers. Which could be good, or bad.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Incidentally guys, I've put up the new Primer discussion threads. One of which is the Sorcery thread. So, if you wanna head on over and start sharing your experiences, thoughts etc, that would be great. Cheers.