Skitarii and Mechanicum HARD DATA review

[Charlo]

Awesome write up!

 

Makes me want to paint my stuff.... Almost!

 

Hoping to have a small detachment for my yearly Apoc group where the Haywire fondue can flow.

[DeStinyFiSh]

After a long time I had another game yesterday.

1500 points Ad Mech vs CSM

He had a Traitors hate Decurion consisting of:

1 Lord of Slaanesh with Steed, Fist and Claw

3 x 5 CSM with 1 Melter each

3 Terminators naked

6 Biker

5 Havocs with autocannons

1 Chaos Spawn

Plus

A Formation consisting of 3 Psykers on bike (gives them a special psy ability to cast)

A Formation consisting of 1 Warpsmith, 1 Maulerfiend, 1 Forgefiend

 

My army looked like this:

Elemination maniple consisting of:

Phosphor Kastellans (Datasmith as Warlord)

4 Grav Destroyer

3 Plasma Destroyer

Sicarian Killclade

 

Quick battle report:

Turn 1

I had turn 1 and couldn’t do anything. We deployed on the short table sides. Kastellans killed 1 CSM (they used infiltrate thanks to Warlord Trait), the rest was out of range, Killclade stayed back behind cover. But I scored 2 objectives in my deployment zone.

The Havocs and the Forgefiend shot at my Kastellans and managed to kill 1 Havoc and glanced the Forgefiend once :p. 6 to save is pure fun ! The rest moved up but stayed far enough away so that my Stalkers still could not charge reliable.

Turn2

Again, there was not much for me to do. The Kastellans had the Havocs in range and killed the remaining 4, so first blood for me. Plasma Destroyers shot at the Maulerfiend and took a HP, Grav Destroyers killed the remaining 4 infiltrating CSM. The Killclade advanced a litte, but I had to stay in cover to protect them from the Forgefiend. I am not sure, but I scored 1 or 2 more victory points for objectives.

CSM turn 2 the Bikers with the 3 Bikers and the Chaos Lord attached charged 5 of my Ruststalkers and killed them. Maulerfiend failed a charge against the Plasma Destroyers. His psykers used their special ability and made my Grav Destroyers shot at the Kastellans back, killing the Datasmith (Warlord-Kill) and put 2 wounds on the robots.

Turn 3

Finally I had some options ! Infiltrators, Kastellans and Plasma Destroyer shot at the big nasty biker- gang killing some bikes here and there, but he was very lucky with his 5+ (Phosphor) jink save. The Grav Destroyer shot at the Maulerfiend and immobilized it. In the assault phase the Ruststalkers attacked the Bikers. Infiltrators did not charge, but moved close enough to get their aura in range. Well… the Ruststalkers killed some stuff, but not nearly as much as I wished for.

On his turn nothing important happened. Terminators came in but scattered and did nothing. Forgefiend shot at Plasma Destroyers and killed 2 (they burnt themselves with their Plasma and have both been on 1 wound left). The big CC continued with guys dropping dead on both sides.

Turn 4

Grav Destroyer killed the Terminators, Kastellans and the remaining Plasma Destroyer tried to finish off the Maulerfiend for 1 VP, but they failed. Infiltrators charged into the big combat and more guys died on both side. Only 1 Psyker with endurance and the Chaos Lord left on his side, 3 Ruststalkers and 4 Infiltrators on mine. The biggest problem was the Lord with his 2+ rerollable thanks to the Chaos Boon table.

On CSM side there was not much going on either. Forgefiend shot at the Robots for 1 wound. In CC is Psyker finally died. His Lord killed the last Ruststalker champion in a challenge an turned into a spawn because of the Chaos Boon table… the gods give, the gods take I guess.

Turn 5

I drew some objectives, we talked about how this turn would proceed that’s it. It was a 10:8 victory for Ad Mech, mostly because I have been lucky drawing lot of objectives that have been on my side of the table.

 

About my Army:

Kastellans did a great job as always. He only managed to kill my Warlord thanks to shooting at my back with one of my own units.

Grav Destroyers are really scary, always take them !

Plasma Destroyers are good as well, but the gets hot with a 4+ save is a real issue !

The Killclade is just rubbish. The increased range of the Infiltrators aura is amazing, but it is not worth taking 3 units of Ruststalkers ! I used them in a few games now, but they have never been worth taking them.

[Vel'Cona]

 

Onager, with laser beam of doom:  These are scary.  Your opponent keeping 48" bubble away from them scary.  I need some more. 

 

I remember when these came out everyone was trying to put Heavy Phosphor on them or leaving them stock.  I thought they were crazy!  The Neutron Laser is a god-beam of doom and is actually pretty cheap for how much of a threat it brings.  I also always take the extra Cognis Heavy Stubber because 6 S4 shots is actually pretty nice to amplify the Onager's infantry killing potential.

[Terminus]

Great write-up. It sucks that Rangers seem to not be used anywhere except a minimum unit for Convocation lists.

 

I always thought they could be a good fit in the Dominus Maniple, since IIRC you don't get scout/crusader outside of the Skitarii maniples, so their longer range would be more useful. With reliable re-rolls their precision shots have a ~22% chance per shot to go off.

 

Arc rifles for the special weapons also would give a potent anti-tank unit.

[Castellan Cato]

 

Onager, with laser beam of doom:  These are scary.  Your opponent keeping 48" bubble away from them scary.  I need some more.

 

 

I remember when these came out everyone was trying to put Heavy Phosphor on them or leaving them stock.  I thought they were crazy!  The Neutron Laser is a god-beam of doom and is actually pretty cheap for how much of a threat it brings.  I also always take the extra Cognis Heavy Stubber because 6 S4 shots is actually pretty nice to amplify the Onager's infantry killing potential.

Is also 5pts that give a 50/50 on saving yourself on a weapon destroyed result.

 

I've only run rangers once. And besides some sweet mono-v-mono single scout versus single ranger action where my ranger came out not only on top, but for line breaker, they were pretty underwhelming.

[SpiritFox22]

Great write-up. It sucks that Rangers seem to not be used anywhere except a minimum unit for Convocation lists.

 

I always thought they could be a good fit in the Dominus Maniple, since IIRC you don't get scout/crusader outside of the Skitarii maniples, so their longer range would be more useful. With reliable re-rolls their precision shots have a ~22% chance per shot to go off.

 

Arc rifles for the special weapons also would give a potent anti-tank unit.

 Yeah Rangers are a unit I want to be good, but just never have preformed well enough to bother with.  Vanguard just earn their points back so much easier.

[MoGuy]

With the new Secutarii Peltasts out the Rangers would acutally need a small rework to be even remotely viable. Vanguards are cheaper and better at killing stuff. With 6" Scout, 6" movement they also have a 30" threatrange, just as much as the Rangers have when they don't move (which they don't because they are always sitting on an objective in our backline).

 

The Peltasts also have a 30" S4 AP3 shot and only cost 1 point more than the Rangers. So for 1 more point I get guys that are much tougher (Kyropatris Fieldgenerator) and way better at killing guys than the Rangers are, since they have 3 different ammo types. 

 

How would you guys change the Rangers to make them viable again? I don't even think that dropping them to 9 points a piece would work, since then they cost as much as the Vanguards but still bring less to the table. Maybe bump up their cost to 12 per model and give their guns AP3?

[SpiritFox22]

With the new Secutarii Peltasts out the Rangers would acutally need a small rework to be even remotely viable. Vanguards are cheaper and better at killing stuff. With 6" Scout, 6" movement they also have a 30" threatrange, just as much as the Rangers have when they don't move (which they don't because they are always sitting on an objective in our backline).

 

The Peltasts also have a 30" S4 AP3 shot and only cost 1 point more than the Rangers. So for 1 more point I get guys that are much tougher (Kyropatris Fieldgenerator) and way better at killing guys than the Rangers are, since they have 3 different ammo types. 

 

How would you guys change the Rangers to make them viable again? I don't even think that dropping them to 9 points a piece would work, since then they cost as much as the Vanguards but still bring less to the table. Maybe bump up their cost to 12 per model and give their guns AP3?

If it came down to reworking the Rangers there's two things I would do. 

1) Ap 3 for Galvanic Rifles

2) Increase the Str of the rifles to 5

Keep them the same base cost that changes them into much larger threats.

[Castellan Cato]

I think fixing the Rangers would actually be done better by fixing the arquebus. That's their weapon and at the moment it's pretty terrible.

 

I would cut it to 15 pts and give it a second shot. Or keep it the same points and boost it to base strength 6 plus Armorbane.

 

If the arquebus is better, then we have a reason to keep some ranger units in the backfield where they want to be.

[CommodusXIII]

Rangers are much better when fielded on larger tables. I get a lot of mileage out of them in Apocalypse, but on a standard 4x6 they take a back seat to Vanguard. In that environment I really only use them for backfield objective holding and character/specialist harassment. Though, I keep toying around with an arc rifle squad for City Fight tank stalking.

[Vel'Cona]

I definitely feel Peltasts have completely outstripped Rangers.  Given that Vanguard had already all but done this for the most part, I'd have to say the next AdMech codex will have to do some serious adjustment to make Rangers competitive.

 

IMO, I'd first say to drop them to the same cost as Vanguard, as they seem to pay extra just for existing at this point.  Then we need to take a look at what they do that's supposed to be special: in this case, Rangers are supposed to be the long range support unit that doggedly tracks down prey.  This is represented by Move Through Cover and their rifle's long range and Precision Shots.  I think the best bet here is to either give their guns Ignores Cover (to represent their marksmanship) or buff them to get Precision Shots on a 5+ instead of a 6 (or both).  They should also come pre-loaded with Night Vision, too.

[Tyriks]

Ignores Cover might be too good for such a cheap unit that can get plasma and haywire guns... maybe if the ignores cover was a rule of the default gun. Another option, I think, is give them stealth or shrouded. Shrouded seems too good but maybe a unique rule that gives them a +1 and under some circumstances a +2 to cover (like if they don't move that turn). That would greatly help them in their preferred role. Or even they have +1 cover and +2 within 3" of an objective.

 

I think also the TA needs reworked no matter what. It's way too expensive for a mediocre output. The only time I would consider it is if it's free, and then I'd rather have plasma in most circumstances.

[Tiger9gamer]

Personally I think that the rangers should just have the sniper special rule without any fancy mechanics, and the arquebus should just get fleshbane too.

 

The rangers would be an all around threat just like the vanguards, and their one special weapon would be a true anti-material weapon.

[CommodusXIII]

Anti-material describes a weapon used again equipment, which is already represented by Armourbane. Anti-personnel would be represented by Fleshbane.

[Magos Takatus]

I would like to see Rangers get a boost. They should probably fire a small number of good quality shots to contrast with the high rate of fire with less predictable wounding mechanics that Vanguard enjoy.

 

Does anything already have a rule that modifies Look Out Sir rolls? I think adding a -1 modifier to LoS combined with the Precision Shots rule would make the Rangers an interesting head-hunter unit. I don't play the game much so I don't know how powerful an ability like that would be but it seemed to fit their style to me.

[Vel'Cona]

Ignores Cover might be too good for such a cheap unit that can get plasma and haywire guns... maybe if the ignores cover was a rule of the default gun.

That's what I was going for. My bad, should have clarified!

[Tiger9gamer]

Anti-material describes a weapon used again equipment, which is already represented by Armourbane. Anti-personnel would be represented by Fleshbane.

 Okay, but looking at modern anti-tank weapons, something that powerful would still cut a single person in half, not to mention probably punch through and hurt even the toughest space marine's flesh easily

[CommodusXIII]

Hence AP3.

[Tyriks]

Ignores Cover might be too good for such a cheap unit that can get plasma and haywire guns... maybe if the ignores cover was a rule of the default gun.

That's what I was going for. My bad, should have clarified!

No, I should have read slower, since you did clearly say the gun! Haha.

[Tyriks]

I would like to see Rangers get a boost. They should probably fire a small number of good quality shots to contrast with the high rate of fire with less predictable wounding mechanics that Vanguard enjoy.

 

Does anything already have a rule that modifies Look Out Sir rolls? I think adding a -1 modifier to LoS combined with the Precision Shots rule would make the Rangers an interesting head-hunter unit. I don't play the game much so I don't know how powerful an ability like that would be but it seemed to fit their style to me.

This could be good but I think it will still be underwhelming.  The assassins modify LoS rolls so there is a precedent.  If it's a rule on the guns they would need reason to be scary, so maybe downgrade the gun overall to a bolter's stats but give them precision shots and rending or something.  Or move precision shots and the LoS penalty onto the Rangers instead of the guns so they can be scary with plasma and the TA.  

 

Alternatively, give them dunestrider.  Having them be mobile enough to actually get to objectives that aren't in your own deployment zone would make them worth it so you could have a cheap objective grabber you won't mind losing if need be.  I would love Rangers if they were fast!

[Vel'Cona]

 

Alternatively, give them dunestrider.  Having them be mobile enough to actually get to objectives that aren't in your own deployment zone would make them worth it so you could have a cheap objective grabber you won't mind losing if need be.  I would love Rangers if they were fast!

 

The only catch on that one is why the Vanguard wouldn't have the same rule.  Maybe Fleet instead?

[Tyriks]

 

Alternatively, give them dunestrider.  Having them be mobile enough to actually get to objectives that aren't in your own deployment zone would make them worth it so you could have a cheap objective grabber you won't mind losing if need be.  I would love Rangers if they were fast!

 

 

The only catch on that one is why the Vanguard wouldn't have the same rule.  Maybe Fleet instead?

I don't think fleet would be that useful since they almost never want to charge and you'd have to give up shooting for it. Vanguard don't need to have all the same rules. They have augmetic legs, they could just add in one line mentioning that Rangers get the faster ones.

[MoGuy]

Let's look at what Rangers are (probably) supposed to be:

 

At first glance they look like mediocre snipers. 30" range, S4 AP4 guns and precision shots. However, the Galvanic Rifles having Rapid Fire just seems odd to me. A sniper unit shouldn't have to advance to 15" range to get the most out of their weapon. At that range they are even more out-performed by the Vanguard (since they already get to shoot their full shots at 18" range). And at long range the new Secutarii Peltasts also outperform the Rangers since they have 30" S4 AP3 weapons. 

 

For the Rangers to become a fire-support unit that sits back and takes out special weapon guys they just lack the tools. The AP4 is the reason why almost no one on this board can say that a min squad of Rangers would do anything noteworthy against MEQs. Even a 10 men squad struggles to get those 6s and then remove that one guy with the flamer.

 

This means that there are 2 ways to make the rangers more effective:

 

1. Buff their AP to 3, thus the few 6s that they'll roll will actually kill their target. 

2. (As proposed from the others here) buff their ability to hit that Sargent/Special Weapon dude. 

 

Tbh, I would just give the guns a special rule that makes them AP2 (or 3) when rolling a 6 to hit. That way they don't just delete MEQs (stock AP3 weapons for normal troops is a bit much if you ask me) but their precision shots will kill their target. If that will be the only change then I would drop their price to that of the Vanguard. If we keep them at 11 points I would also give them Stealth and the ability to get precision shots (and their AP2/3 hit) on a 5+ if they didn't move that turn. Alternatively this could activate whenever they are under the influence of a Doctrina Imperative, reflecting how the new data input helps them locate and hunt down their target. Also get rid of Rapid Fire. Either give the weapons 2 shots (which I would think would be too strong again for 11 points per model) or no additional shots at all.

 

I also think that the Transuranic Arquebus needs a whole rework. First of all, make it a special weapon that only the Rangers can take. It's a giant sniper rifle and just doesn't fit the Vanguards' up-and-personal playstyle. Then make it S6, keep the armourbane and give it a special rule that prevents the enemy from using look out sir. Drop its point cost to 15 points. Or drop the points to 20 and give it a secondary ammo type that fires a 3" blast (either directly or just let the model it kills explode in a 3" blast like the victims of the Death Jester). Make the blast S4 AP4(?).

 

That way the Rangers would give good fire support, would be somewhat reliable at taking out special weapons and can just camp in our backline thanks to Stealth. 

[BassWave]

Rangers having stealth and making galvanic rifles heavy 2 would satisfy me. No need to over complicate them with rules.

 

The TAs should definitely change. I like the idea of making it strength 6. It wounds infantry like it should and is way more reliable against armor. With armor bane letting you roll two dice, it gives you an average roll of 13. This would give us a much needed long range punch.

[DeStinyFiSh]

The only reason I had lately to field Rangers was to keep my Warlord away from my opponent to deny him the WL kill.

5 Rangers as backfield objective campers in cover with the shrouded WL trait are hard to kill. Add 2 TAs (more reliable now with prefered enemy from WL) and they are also able to finish off AVs or make some kills here and there.

 

But this might only be worth it in a mono Skitarii list, as soon as there is a Tech Priest in the mix it is better making him the Warlord.

 

I will continue fielding Rangers from time to time, because I think it is boring to flood the table only with Vanguard.

However, as soon as I get the FW upgrade kits (hopefully this year) there is a big chance they will not see daylight for a longer time.