Skitarii and Mechanicum HARD DATA review

[Vel'Cona]

Can the Ruststalkers ride in the Mechanicum transport things?  ie. the Triaros/Macrocarid Explorator?  Has anyone actually tried this if it's possible?

[MoGuy]

They can't, since Ruststalkers don't exist in 30K. Once the Mechanicum vehicles get rules for 40K they can. But unless the Triaros/Explorator suddenly become assault vehicles, it won't really matter. But they could still transport Vanguards, which would be sweet!

[Vel'Cona]

It's odd FW hasn't jumped at the chance to blend some of their Mechanicum into the 40k fold. Seems like a gold mine of profits for them, and gameplay/build designs for us.

[DeStinyFiSh]

It's odd FW hasn't jumped at the chance to blend some of their Mechanicum into the 40k fold. Seems like a gold mine of profits for them, and gameplay/build designs for us.

According to some informations from the last Open World the next IA will include every single Mechanicum unit FW has got... but I have no informations about a release date.

[Tiger9gamer]

hey, if waiting longer means we get the rules for the Artalax in 40k, then I'm happily able to wait.

[Charlo]

I expect we'll see the plastics ported over (as well as some more upgrade variants) for whatever book covers the Martian civil war :)

[Vel'Cona]

I'm also curious when the Secutarii will find their way out of "Experimental Rules". I'd like to pick up some Peltasts (they look disgustingly strong) but I'm concerned their final form will be heavily nerfed before full rules are released.

[Charlo]

I'm also curious when the Secutarii will find their way out of "Experimental Rules". I'd like to pick up some Peltasts (they look disgustingly strong) but I'm concerned their final form will be heavily nerfed before full rules are released.

Oh no, we get a really strong unit! Emperor forbid ;)

[Magos Takatus]

I'm also curious when the Secutarii will find their way out of "Experimental Rules". I'd like to pick up some Peltasts (they look disgustingly strong) but I'm concerned their final form will be heavily nerfed before full rules are released.

Oh no, we get a really strong unit! Emperor forbid

Well, I like the look of the all-purpose grenade launcher but I'm not keen on the fact that they completely invalidate Rangers. They have a hard enough time as it is.

[BassWave]

I'm also curious when the Secutarii will find their way out of "Experimental Rules". I'd like to pick up some Peltasts (they look disgustingly strong) but I'm concerned their final form will be heavily nerfed before full rules are released.

Oh no, we get a really strong unit! Emperor forbid

Well, I like the look of the all-purpose grenade launcher but I'm not keen on the fact that they completely invalidate Rangers. They have a hard enough time as it is.

Pfft, that's the rangers' fault.

[Charlo]

Rangers are troops.

 

Secutarii are elite :D

[BassWave]

Rangers are troops.

 

Secutarii are elite :D

Unless you are running a CAD, the difference in FOC slot is a moot point. Which is actually possible by using any one of the triumvirate. If rumours are true of course.

[MoGuy]

I have a question. Can we use Cawl's Canticles in addition to the normal Canticles, so using both on the same turn? 

 

I think the Triumvirate is a great addition. I will try running Cawl or Celestine with a group of E-Priests. Both characters are tanky enough that they should soak up enough damage until the Priests reach close combat. Celestine also gives them Hit and Run so that they can use their HoW attacks more than once!

 

Has someone tried running some Fulgurites with a Grey Knight Librarian? He could cast Sanctuary on them so that the whole group has a 4++ that goes down to a 2++ if they kill something in CC. That sounds pretty strong even though they are still very slow.

[MajorNese]

A bit more hard data, of Carl taking the field with some rather silent "advisors". The game was more of a testing ground for Carl, the memento morispex relic, and my first Raptors (Raven Guard successors with sniper bolters instead of jump packs). Won't post the full game, just the interesting takeaways and rough happenings. My list (roughly):

 

Lias Issodon (Raptors chapter master, sneaky guy)

Carl

10 tacs (bolters only)

5 scouts, LSS

3 scout bikers, grenade launchers, snare mines

 

Dominus with memento morispex and eradication beamer

3 grav kataphron

 

2x10 arc vanguard

10 vanguard, 1 plasma

10 vanguard

2 neutron onager + stubber

1 phosphor onager + stubber

2 dragoons

 

My opponent wanted to try stuff himself, and got the full Tau cheese range. Not going into detail, as I'm not familiar with all the formations. Hunter Cadre, Riptide Wing, Stealth Cadre, basically being "everything's better than it should be".

 

4 Riptides

1 Stormsurge

ghostkeel + ghosts

2x5 fire warriors

2 piranhas

drone commander with 7 marker drones

 

Now the one reason why Raptors aren't entirely screwed rule wise, Issodon's special rules: Fixed warlord trait Master of Ambush (he and 3 units can infiltrate, solving Carl's transport problem), rerollable reserves, and a Sabotage attack before the game starts. He basically points at a unit, and it suffers D6+3 wounds with no AP. Downside, can't take Issodon if he isn't warlord, effectively making Carl a secondary HQ, and giving Slay the Warlord more easily.

 

The maelstrom mission was the one where holding objectives gives maelstrom cards. Which turned into a good start, with keeping the skitarii part in the regular, scouting FoC and infiltrating effectively 2 units + attached HQ through Issodon, to get more missions from the start.

 

Downside, except for Carl, everything dies to Tau shooting if they manage to get markers. So Issodon's sabotage took out 4 out of 7 markers before the game started, effectively limiting Ignores Cover to one unit and some formation cheese. Issodon's ability to Infiltrate got Carl and the grav servitors into range for a turn one Riptide kill on one flank, which led to everything except for the Stormsurge to flee that entire flank.

 

The stormsurge tried to openly attack 2,5 squads of vanguards, and died to mass Radium. Would have taken more than one turn if not for the morispex relic. 10 bare vanguard with Imperatives and Monster Hunter, combined with a S8 AP3 eradication beamer template, are just stacking loads of wounds. The relic was intended as impromptu anti air just in case, but it worked a lot better in this role. Very versatile, will continue to use it.

 

From then on, my opponent entirely deserted that flank. A long board and lots of terrain, combined with a lot of jetpack moves, led to Carl and his servitors not getting anything into range besides fire warriors until the end of the game. My opponent feared Carl and refused to target him, but everything else was fair game. From then on it turned into any game involving Tau, just massed riptides and stealth units shooting up everything, and me trying to score objectives while not getting tabled. Nova reactor to shoot missiles twice, riptide wing to shoot twice in one phase, Mont'Ka rerolling to hit and pen against a different target each round, and stealth units using their weird "hit rear armour with frontal hit while ignoring cover" rule to kill an onager per round.

 

Needless to say, until end of 6th round, nothing but Carl, 2 servitors and a cover-camping vanguard squad was left. Killing anything worthwile of the Tau list was impossible, with going either against 2+ armour or 2+ cover, and the scout/scout biker outflanking just vaporizing against a suddenly invisible ghostkeel. In the end, I won 13-9 by always claiming 3-4 objectives, and sacrificing units to fulfill those requirements.

 

Main takeaways:

Tau with all their formation cheese is hard as nails. The stormsurge was fielded 1st time and started off with a suicide run, otherwise I wouldn't have seen the end of the game. Everything else will just shoot skitarii to bitz, stay out of range by jetpack, and survive anything not AP2 and/or ignoring cover.

 

Raptors might be fun, but can in no way stand up to that. I'll need a lot more AP2 on them and stack up on any formation possible, otherwise they end up as cannon fodder. Issodon has nice abilities and keeps his squad alive for a while by giving them Shrouded, so he's pretty much auto include. Scout bikers' mines were nice too, having deterred my opponent from using the Fortress of Redemption stretching across his deployment zone. And killed a further 2 marker drones, getting them below ignores-cover threshold.

 

Memento Morispex is great. Having to take another HQ besides Carl makes it awkward to include, but synergizes perfectly with Radium in case of MCs/GCs. And arc, if there are flyers. Might even slap it on the Raptors if they turn playable standalone.

 

Carl might be nice, but really short-ranged. I made the mistake of not planning too far ahead, leaving him in a useless spot for most of the game, just clearing and claiming 2 objectives and deterring any riptide from entering grav range. With Infiltrate and +1 BS canticle, his servitors at least overkilled the first riptide before it could jetpack away like the rest, and decimate the skitarii from the back.

[Perry]

Facing a load of Riptides is hard work for anyone, well done on your objective win.

 

Would Torsion guns be useful against Suit heavy Tau lists? There's a guy at my local who goes heavy on Riptides and I doubt my usual Arc Breachers will be of much use

[DeStinyFiSh]

Facing a load of Riptides is hard work for anyone, well done on your objective win.

 

Would Torsion guns be useful against Suit heavy Tau lists? There's a guy at my local who goes heavy on Riptides and I doubt my usual Arc Breachers will be of much use

 

Grav is realy king here. Torsion might work with either TL or +3 BS Canticle in combination with the Holy Requisitioner, but I would still bring larger numbers.

Without doing the math, I would say you should take 4 to 5 Torsions per unit to be on the save side and maybe get rid of even 2 Riptides in 1 turn...

Without the Holy Requisitioner you might struggle to get into range before being shot to pieces...

[MajorNese]

Would Torsion guns be useful against Suit heavy Tau lists? There's a guy at my local who goes heavy on Riptides and I doubt my usual Arc Breachers will be of much use

Sadly, almost every Tau player I know goes heavy on riptides, because of reasons. Only reason to include less than 3 standard riptides would be owning FW cheese riptides.

 

I fear torsion guns, while a lot better than arc, are not the best choice. The reasons being the same as with the grav destroyers in this game, but more pronounced. First of all, only one shot. Even if you ally in to infiltrate them, they only have one shot per model, if it misses, the model does nothing. Torsion would strip statistically 2 wounds per hit, with a riptide having 5 wounds. So, all would have to hit, and wound, and the riptide screw up both invul/cover and FnP, to kill just one riptide. At 24" range, Tau will just walk/jetpack away from it, and it won't get into range for a long time. Not being able to run with servitors means they have to be center board (fire magnet), or they won't have targets.

 

Grav destroyers, while being the cheesier choice, are the only ones who could potentially do it. Carls BS+1 canticle will increase hits, and a servitor squad can kill a riptide in one go, before it jetpacks away out of range and behind all the other riptides.

[Tiger9gamer]

So I used cawl for the first time in a cadian gate style game in my GW, and while he did buff some IG tanks, he mostly didnt have the range for anything. He still isn't that good in CQC either, not especially compared to the harlequins and the eversor that ended up attacking him at least. He didnt do a lot to be honest, and through the game I wish I just brought a tech priest with the skryerskull or something.

 

He feels way too short ranged to do anything in the game I played to be honest.

[lancerusso]

I have had immense success with Skitarii- it's my core army and I play most weeks. I recently came top out of twelve in a saturday tournament, much to my surprise.

 

The key elements I've identified are:

 

Infantry Spam.

 

Vanguard are dirt cheap at 100pts for ten guys/11 wounds. At BS7/6/5/4, with amazing guns that shoot anything living with its rad saturation rules. They'll pile on the hurt and make terminators roll until they fail saves.

Rangers are not worth spamming alone, the S4 AP4 rapid fire not really making much difference save on long range engagements and 

Both of these units synergises brilliantly with the skitarii maniple, scout before moving letting them usually reach assault 3 or rapid fire range turn one; and the maniple lets you bring these in unlimited numbers.

 

Special weapon synergy:

 

This is really important IMO. The only gun upgrades you should be giving vanguards are plasma calivers. These should almost exclusively be on your warlord squad for the preferred enemy shenanigans. This does mean you have a fragile 200pt blob with your T3 warlord in for you opponent to crush under his foot. But: combined with intelligent use of cover and sometimes smart use of reserve (or infiltrate/outflank from that warlord trait roll) to keep your boss safe by keeping him off the table.

 

If your opponent has a very aggressive or ignores cover ap4 army, reserve is where your warlord squad wants to be. It doesn't matter if he doesn't come on until turn 2 or 3 in this instance - your warlord is alive and well and denying your opponent a great source of VPs. Then your warlord and 9 plasma shots preferred enemy on 2+ to hit can come in from your table edge and slaughter that terminator squad/Meganobs/dreadknight (delete as appropriate). This is infinitely improved when you come in from outflank, giving you an opportunity to strike in from either table edge and hence a potential threat range that overlaps all but a two foot square in the middle back of the opponent's side. [normal reserve means you can hit 24'' from your table edge after moving, and outflank means 24'' = 2' from the left and right side , so on a 6*4 table, do the math.]

 

Calivers are made for vanguards, with their gun range of 18'' matching that of the rad carbine. Arc rifles with 24'' inch range just don't cut it, especially since they are made for targeting vehicles which s3 does nothing at all to. Transuranic arquebuses are made for backline and hence work with rangers, in fluff and mechanics, but if you're trying to squeeze a few points out, it might be worth using a 2*( 5*vanguard +2*arquebus  + omnispex) loadout, giving two squads with four snipers total for a mere 230 pts. compared to 205 pts for three snipers, where you can't bring a fourth without paying 65/55 tax for a new squad. That being said, rangers have precision shots, so arquebuses should go on there so you can pile hits onto characters as much as possible.

 

Arc Rifles should always go on rangers. ALWAYS. Move through cover lets you make it even more likely you get into that rapid fire range of 12'', and has even gotten me round to side armour facing angles before. Their regular S4 guns can glance a few vehicles too, unlike rad weapons. 30'' range on the galvanic rifles means you will always be shooting with most of your guns. Too often I have seen people bring vanguard haywire, and a squad fires a measly two arc rifle shots. If they used rangers, they'd have another three S4AP4 shots going off, and at a full squad, rapid fire, 6 haywire and 14 S4. Statistically you'll get 6 glances against AV10 and some 2 pens. It wrecks a lot. Granted, haywire should be being used against higher armour, but this synergy is there to give you flexibility and not make your haywire squads wasted when there aren't any more land raiders to kill.

 

 

Countercharging:

 

I always take a squad of infiltrators AND a squad of ruststalkers. Use them to charge forward vs a shooty army, yes. But hold them back against others- and use them to rescue your crucial shooty squads in combat. The latter have assault grenades and occasional AP2, fleshbane and haywire- a toolkit to slaughter astartes, terminators or dreadnoughts. The former are great in piled combat, provinding more fantastic CC bodies at I4 and also debuffing enemy units in 6'', meaning you can turn the tide in multiple combats by just being nearby. -1WS and -1I and -1Ld to the enemy, with your CC doctrines means often you flip your enemy's expectation- you're suddenly the one rolling 3+ to hits to their 5+, suddenly they are hitting simultaneously to you or later , as is the case I've seen vs space marines. This can rescue failing or clutch combats into leadership roll saves for the enemy, especially since these effects last through to the opponents turn. locking your guys in CC can actually be a safe haven.

 

The Infiltrators are for interfering with the enemy- I often throw them away in an early outflank, just to slow and distract a crucial enemy squad- but often they get pulled into combat and wreck a lot with their nimble, frail T3 frames. These are fantastic antihorde units too. 25 s2 shred at BS7/6/5/4 has had me overkilling eldar squads, termagaunts, imperial conscripts and genestealers. The tasers with their tesla to hits lead to an immense amount of wounds at S6, which leads to opponents groaning as they fail their inconsequential armour saves. These guys are great vs demons.

 

Ruststalkers, with their assault grenades, and versatile AP are anti MC, anti deathstar, anti anything. 

 

They're also great VS vehicles, and can kill leman russes with a charge. Infiltrators have S6 with goads (no contest vs powers swords in my experience), and of course CC always hits rear vs nonwalker vehicles. Ruststalkers have haywire grenades (I only ever take that loadout) as well, and a dataspike.

 

 

Fragility:

 

You are fragile and expensive. Use cover saves and night fighting, and embrace those lovely 3+ saves. When the opponent has Ignores Cover, Use reserve to your advantage as stated earlier. Despite your expensive troops, vanguards and dragoons are cheap and can be spammed to some degree - this is great for MSU.

 

If Your local meta means your army is getting wiped the time, think about investing in cult mechanicus for T4/5/7 goodness. But there lies the danger. Skitarii work best IMO, when you pile in more skitarii. Servitors are no match for a legion of cybermen.

 

 

Sorry for the drooling, stream of conscioussness writing- I have been dying to give input for weeks, and finally got a new account. It's late. I'll actually state some of my experiences tomorrow, and share my fun adventures with Belisarius Carl. I always use him as a tank for my plasma skitarii- despite being majority T3.

 

Finally: the new relics from cawl are AMAZING. Memento morispex will not work with haywire or grav since it is rerolls to wound and penetrates for tank and monster hunter- haywire and grav are neither. Skyfire and cognis are great for grav servitors or haywire servitors and skitarii, but I've found the best platform for the relic- a ranger squad with three arquebuses and an omnispex. Skyfire lets you aim those S4 and armour bane shots skyward, cognis covers you from charges or gone to ground/fleeing. Tank hunter is invaluable on your three s4+2d6, and monster hunter makes the same snipers into 75% to wound rather than 50/50.

 

The aformentioned plasma vanguard squad- I give the sergeant the quantum paradox gun - assault d3 AP2 at 18'' synergises with plasma, but the S2d6 makes it hilarious to use- autwound and instant death on above a roll of 10, as well as autopenetrate.

 

+1 invuln save from the omnissiah's grace is also a godsend for skitarii, giving your characters the potential for a 3+ invuln save.

 

These relics for the low cost of bringing Carl at minimum in an allied detach with a servitor squad. Fantastic. Sure, his canticle buff rules are wasted in this situation, but it can provide minimal help for skitarii vehicles, at least. Still an absolute steal at 200PTS

[Kilofix]

Keep in mind Secutarii Peltasts in the final Inferno rules have been nerfed slightly to Flechette S2 Shred instead of S3. They're also slightly more expensive pointswise.

[MajorNese]

Quite a few interesting points I'd have to try. And yes, anything cover-related is a big advantage for skitarii. Best possible thing to happen is rolling for City Fighting WT, which is why I always roll on strategic table. There's nothing better than having 3+ cover on anything from massed vanguard to onagers.

 

 

These relics for the low cost of bringing Carl at minimum in an allied detach with a servitor squad. Fantastic. Sure, his canticle buff rules are wasted in this situation, but it can provide minimal help for skitarii vehicles, at least. Still an absolute steal at 200PTS

Having to take a squad of servitors to get Carl isn't much of an issue. Grav servitors bring something skitarii otherwise lack, long-range high RoF AP2. While fragile with 4+ armour, Carl will keep them alive, while LoS-ing those wounds that could kill him (when running low, or ID). Especially against quad riptide, vanguard and plasma calivers just don't get the job done. 24" threat range against log-ranged jetpack MCs doesn't work terribly well, if also having to go around 2+ armour and fishing for 6s to wound at all. Carl and the gravs created a 36" no-go area, but it has to be in a good position from the start.

 

As for the Morispex, there is always the option of making it flexible, but at a cost. Increase Cult to a CAD, requiring an additional servitor squad, but enabling a Dominus as 2nd HQ to carry it. The dominus can join any unit that could need it, so it depends on the list you're facing what exactly will be buffed, and there's the option to switch squads if one is worn down. Haven't calculated if that's worth it, but the option is there. Also, Carl can be the near-unslayable warlord, drawing even more fire to him, while getting even harder to kill.

[DeStinyFiSh]

You can give the Morispex to a Skitarii Alpha as well, no need for a CAD.

If you dont want to pay for Servitors you can also put Carl in a Dominus Maniple...

[MajorNese]

As I've said, the dominus is a way to make it more flexible, deciding at deployment which unit will profit from it (depending on the opponent's list and mission), and switching units when one is close to getting killed. On any Alpha, when the squad is wiped out, the relic is gone. Pricey, so depending on the situation.

 

As for Carl in a Dominus Maniple, that's actually a good idea. Be the warlord (unlike allied detachment) while saving the points for servitors. Downside, as well as losing the options for long-range AP2, whenever Carl joins a unit, the majority toughness of 3 will stack wounds on him more easily. With servitors, the majority toughness is 5 instead, which is a huge bonus. Another option would be a secutarii unit of 10+ models, which would make them essentially T4 (-1S on incoming fire, at 10 or more models) as well as giving Carl a rerollable 2+ armour (all models get to reroll armour saves of 1, at 5 or more models).

 

Going around solo is dangerous. Carl is known for being tough, and won't be killed by S10, but easily dies to anything that has Instant Death. Just a 5+ invul, no FnP, if he fails, he's dead. Also, he is incredibly close to riptide statline (T6, W5, 2+/5++, FnP), and people have learned the hard way to deal with half a dozen of those. There is definitely use in deflecting too many or ID wounds to followers.

[Mitchverr]

Just in reguards to the whole "skitarii infantry spam vs walker spam" things i have read, which tends to get more effective use? As i have 3 squads of infantry (2 van and a ranger) and 7 onagers(i usually go 3 neutron, 3 erad, 1 AA) and some ironstriders, im thinking of going to a tourny as skitarii only, with plenty of time, so i was just curious which side tends to be more useful as i am considering if i want to get a spam of dragoons for forming an ironstrider cavalier support unit meaning in the end, the lions share of the army will be made up of walkers(7 dunecrawlers, 6 dragoons half tazer and 2 balistarii getting to about 1200 points or so).

 

Too much put into walkers? Put more into walkers? Just curious of it on a number crunch side as i have not used skitarii as a solo force in large numbers before.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I can not remember who it was, but we had some interesting reports from a member playing tons of Dragoons and Striders.

 

Either way might cause trouble to your opponent. Mass infantrie will cause his anti tank weapons to be wasted, mass AV and his flamers / bolters / lasguns are wasted.

On the other end you risk that he has exactly what he needs to deal with your army. For example against Haywire heavy Ad Mech you will have a lot of trouble if your army consists of 90% AVs.