Skitarii and Mechanicum HARD DATA review

[Perry]

Just in reguards to the whole "skitarii infantry spam vs walker spam" things i have read, which tends to get more effective use? As i have 3 squads of infantry (2 van and a ranger) and 7 onagers(i usually go 3 neutron, 3 erad, 1 AA) and some ironstriders, im thinking of going to a tourny as skitarii only, with plenty of time, so i was just curious which side tends to be more useful as i am considering if i want to get a spam of dragoons for forming an ironstrider cavalier support unit meaning in the end, the lions share of the army will be made up of walkers(7 dunecrawlers, 6 dragoons half tazer and 2 balistarii getting to about 1200 points or so).

 

Too much put into walkers? Put more into walkers? Just curious of it on a number crunch side as i have not used skitarii as a solo force in large numbers before.

Have you considered using the Grand Convocation Detachment from Fall of Cadia?

 

6 Heavy support choices and It Will Not Die on vehicles within 6" of a HQ choice which could be a few cheap Enginseers.

 

Just seems a good idea if going Onager heavy

[gmaleron]

That would be me, I have 12 Dragoons and 6 Ironstriders and I have had tons of success with this Army, my only loss coming against a Gunline Tau Army. I have yet to use the new formation in the Fall of Cadia book but I am very much looking forward to being able to run all my Walkers with Cawl with them all having it will not die!

 

Have been absent for a little while as my Army is currently being painted but I hope to start playing regularly again within a week or two.

[Vel'Cona]

I've always wanted to run a "Skitarii Cavalry" army but I couldn't bring myself to shell out the cash for that many Ironstriders/Dragoons.  What I do know is that they're a bit fiddly to paint, so best of luck to you!  :)

[Mitchverr]

That would be me, I have 12 Dragoons and 6 Ironstriders and I have had tons of success with this Army, my only loss coming against a Gunline Tau Army. I have yet to use the new formation in the Fall of Cadia book but I am very much looking forward to being able to run all my Walkers with Cawl with them all having it will not die!

 

Have been absent for a little while as my Army is currently being painted but I hope to start playing regularly again within a week or two.

 

The dragoons, are they half taser half rifle or full taser rush?

 

 

And yeah, i love the idea of a skitarii cavalry.

[A.T.]

As for the Morispex, there is always the option of making it flexible, but at a cost. Increase Cult to a CAD, requiring an additional servitor squad, but enabling a Dominus as 2nd HQ to carry it. The dominus can join any unit that could need it, so it depends on the list you're facing what exactly will be buffed, and there's the option to switch squads if one is worn down. Haven't calculated if that's worth it, but the option is there. Also, Carl can be the near-unslayable warlord, drawing even more fire to him, while getting even harder to kill.

 

Would a a random inquisitor dressed up as a techpriest not be a cheaper relic bearer?. Comes complete with his own bonus warlord trait.

[Tiger9gamer]

 

As for the Morispex, there is always the option of making it flexible, but at a cost. Increase Cult to a CAD, requiring an additional servitor squad, but enabling a Dominus as 2nd HQ to carry it. The dominus can join any unit that could need it, so it depends on the list you're facing what exactly will be buffed, and there's the option to switch squads if one is worn down. Haven't calculated if that's worth it, but the option is there. Also, Carl can be the near-unslayable warlord, drawing even more fire to him, while getting even harder to kill.

 

Would a a random inquisitor dressed up as a techpriest not be a cheaper relic bearer?. Comes complete with his own bonus warlord trait.

 

 

That... is a great idea actually. never would have thought of that!

[gmaleron]

The dragoons, are they half taser half rifle or full taser rush?

And yeah, i love the idea of a skitarii cavalry.

All of the Dragoons have Taser Lances and Phosphor Serpentas and all of the Ironstriders have TL-Autocannons. I usually give all my Vanguard Arc Rifles and I have multiple Dunecrawlers with Neutron Lasers to handle heavy armor I may come across

[Kilofix]

All my Dragoons are Taser too except one with Rad Sniper - specifically for Kill Team.

[Vel'Cona]

But how does that pan out on the table?  Do the Dragoons stand well versus other assault units?  Or are they for picking off weaker, flank elements?

[gmaleron]

But how does that pan out on the table? Do the Dragoons stand well versus other assault units? Or are they for picking off weaker, flank elements?

I have gone with the approach of charging them into any unit I can find to test out their capabilities and based on the results I would have to say if you get the charge off they hold up really well against other assault oriented units. There are multiple people at my FLGS for example that play Space Wolves thunderwolf cavalry armies and I have been able to go head-to-head with them as long as I have gotten the charge off. I've also been comfortably able to take on white scars bikers, tyranid Carnifexes, blood Angel death company ect.

 

I won't lie a lot of it depends on how many hits I am able to inflict on my opponent thanks to the Taser rule and in almost every instance I have had to get the charge off. Surprisingly armor 11 has been decently durable and even if I'm not able to inflict damage there have been times where I have tied up my opponents units for a couple turns. More often than not all of my dragoons are wiped out but the enemy is so weakened by their impact my Dunecrawlers, Vanguard and ironstriders can clean up what's left as they are usually unscathed because my opponent focus is everything on my dragoons.

[DeStinyFiSh]

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After a longer break I had a Game against my brothers Salamenders on Friday. After he told me that his list is not all ObjSec Drop Pods we agreed to play the Ad Mech mission from Fall of Cadia, where Carl lured an Ork in an ambush (1500 points).

He wanted to try this SM formation which allows him to move d6 after shooting and even to re-embark into transports. I think he had 5 Rhinos, Vulcan in a Command Squat, Devastators with Multi Meltas, Some Tactical Marines and Assault Marines. He also had a formation with 2 Whirlwinds and a Speeder, later allows the tanks to fire unlimited range and reroll scatter if target is in 18" of the speeder. Finally he had a CAD with more Tacticals, Sniper Scouts and a Thunderfire Canon.

I myself wanted to get the most out of Carl and his Canticles, so I decided to run a Cult only CAD:

Carl

Tech Priest with Cognis Relic

3 Grav Destroyer

3 Grav Destroyer

3 Plasma Destroyer

3 Arc Breacher

3 Arc Breacher

2 Phosphor Kastellan (Smith with Memento Mortispex)

So, here some hard data:

The mission was real fun ! There is no need for the opponent to be an Ork player, but a full ObjSec Drop Pod army would kind of instantly win the game turn 1, so talk to your opponent beforehand.

I wasn't sure about the list, since it is pretty slow and kind of fragile, also the firepower is not realy reliable thanks to BS3. But thanks to the Canticles it was straight out devastating, especially against a AV heavy army. The SM wasn't able to reach a single objective.

Carls Canticles are amazing ! The 4++ helps a lot when you have a lot of 4+ armour saves on the table. The IWND Canticle was cool as well. I had 3 Breachers, each with 1 wound left, in CC with the Assault Marines. All of them got healed, and so they have been able to grind down the Marines slowly but steady.

On the down side: Would this have been a normale Maelstrom mission, mobility would have been a big issue. Objectives have to bee placed more than 12" away from each other, and I already struggled getting my Servitors from one Obj to the other in time. Geting an Obj on the other side of the table seems next to impossible for the little tractors.

A small minus for Carl is his low range. Everyone knows that he is next to unkillable and that he deals a lot of damage when in range. So most opponents will just try to stay more than 12" away from him. This can be good for field control, but can also be a little disappointing when he does nothing else than stand around or walk from one side to the other...

I also realised how dangerous Barrage and Snipers can be. A super 2+, 5++, reroll FnP, regenerating tank called Carl is no help when snipers aim at the 4+ Servitors and Barrage strikes into the back lines. Maybe it is time to finaly finish my Void Shield Generator

Next time I want to field the Conclave Aquisitiorius at 1850 points... Canticles for everyone and way more speed thanks to Skitarii, Knight and the Holy Requisitioner !

[Charlo]

Good data my friend!

 

You have totally reminded me something about Cawl though... I've been sat here thinking his canticles only affect imperial vehicles for some reason and not really thought of the insanity that is a 4++ to your entire army for a turn :o

[Tyriks]

Yeah, the 4++ helped me out a ton in my game yesterday. I played a 2k game against guard, and was told he found the cheesiest list online so I should bring a strong army. I brought a War Convocation with Carl, my first time using either (btw is that legal? Says he can be an HQ choice in a CAD or replace a dominus in a formation. WC is a formation but the dominus is in a detachment that is part of the formation, so I'm not sure how that works). The 4++ is all that got me through his initial barrage. I still took heavy losses but more than repaid him for them. Some thoughts:

First, the Icarus cannon on a knight sucks. Two shots at S7 just isn't enough. If flyers just sit there for you then sure, you'll take one down in three turns or so, but I really think I would have been better off ignoring the damn flyers and bringing a missile pod.

Second, the mortispex was awesome on a priest in a Kastelan unit! It made an already dangerous unit way more dangerous (even after one robot got completely obliterated turn one). The remaining robot did way more damage to his flyers with phosphor blasters. Kastelans also are just the best thing. I need more.

Third, Carl is a monster. His canticles are nice (though with his and with the doctrines I forgot all the time) but he is just tough as nails. He took heavy fire the first three turns (sniper squads, leman Russes and autocannon weapon squads) and never took a wound. My opponent thought I was crazy to have my warlord out in the open all alone but when he realized he could take FNP on those S10 pie plates he just gave up shooting him. He moved too slow to ever actually do anything else but the sheer volume of firepower he ate up was intense and probably saved my knight and robots (he was between the two and opponent was looking for that easy warlord point so shots that should have gone to them kept getting pointed at him).

Unless I start playing competitively, though, I think I'll pass on the WC from now on. It was fun but too rigid and way too many rules to remember. My opinion on the Grand Convocation has actually been warming up a lot, so I think next time I play a game that size I'll try that instead.

[Nostramar]

War Convocation with Carl, my first time using either (btw is that legal? Says he can be an HQ choice in a CAD or replace a dominus in a formation. WC is a formation but the dominus is in a detachment that is part of the formation, so I'm not sure how that works

 

Yes that is legal as he simply replace the usual Dominus. 

[SydonianDragoon404]

Now that we have our hands on the new Relics, does anyone have any hard data for their use in the field? How do they stack up to the ones we already have? I'm considering switching out a couple of the standard Skitarii relics for the new ones. Note, I'm mainly going to be talking about War Convocation here, so all of them will be free, aside from any Inquisitors holding them.

 

For the Vanguard Plasma squad, I'm thinking of switching out the Pater Radium for the Quantum Annihilator. Same Range as everything else in the squad, AP value synergy with the Plasma Calivers. Also neat chances for Instant Death.

 

I'm thinking of taking a cheap Ordo Xenos Inquisitor for the Memento-Mortispex, because it's now an absolutely disgusting amount of versatility that I can put into any unit. Grav Destroyers, Arc Rifle Rangers, Plasma Vanguard in a pinch. Also giving those Destroyers Ld10 and stubborn, maybe even upgrading the Inquisitor to a psyker for a little extra? It sounds super good on paper.

 

One that I'm not entirely sure about is swapping the Phase Taser on my Infiltrator Princeps to the Omnissiah's Grace. 3+ Invuln seems really good on that unit, but the threat of the remove from play, even with it being so remote of a possibility, seems like it's too good to pass up. This will require some playtesting, as I can't remember the number times that it the remove from play actually turned a game for me rather than just being icing on the cake. I mean, the potential of getting rid of that Riptide on like a 1/36 chance... I'm not sure.

 

Thoughts, fellow Princeps, Priests, and Alphas?

[Tyriks]

Now that we have our hands on the new Relics, does anyone have any hard data for their use in the field? How do they stack up to the ones we already have? I'm considering switching out a couple of the standard Skitarii relics for the new ones. Note, I'm mainly going to be talking about War Convocation here, so all of them will be free, aside from any Inquisitors holding them.

 

For the Vanguard Plasma squad, I'm thinking of switching out the Pater Radium for the Quantum Annihilator. Same Range as everything else in the squad, AP value synergy with the Plasma Calivers. Also neat chances for Instant Death.

 

I'm thinking of taking a cheap Ordo Xenos Inquisitor for the Memento-Mortispex, because it's now an absolutely disgusting amount of versatility that I can put into any unit. Grav Destroyers, Arc Rifle Rangers, Plasma Vanguard in a pinch. Also giving those Destroyers Ld10 and stubborn, maybe even upgrading the Inquisitor to a psyker for a little extra? It sounds super good on paper.

 

One that I'm not entirely sure about is swapping the Phase Taser on my Infiltrator Princeps to the Omnissiah's Grace. 3+ Invuln seems really good on that unit, but the threat of the remove from play, even with it being so remote of a possibility, seems like it's too good to pass up. This will require some playtesting, as I can't remember the number times that it the remove from play actually turned a game for me rather than just being icing on the cake. I mean, the potential of getting rid of that Riptide on like a 1/36 chance... I'm not sure.

 

Thoughts, fellow Princeps, Priests, and Alphas?

I've only used the mortispex so far. I put it in a Kastelan robot Maniple and loved it. S6 guns can threaten a lot of things, but not super reliably. Being able to reroll helps that a ton. And they brought down a flyer very quickly with skyfire!

[DanPesci]

So played my first 'all admech' list over the weekend against my mates death guard army. 1750 a side. 

 

Cant remember his exact loadout but it was something like

 

- Daemon Prince - Wings, PA, black mace, ML2

- lord on Bike - Mon

- Sorceror on Bike - Mon, burning brand

- 2-3 units of plague marines

- 2x units of cultists - MoN

- 2 Units of bikers with Mon (warlord and sorceror split between the two)

- Predator Plasma Destroyer 

 

I took

 

Cult Mech Detachment

 

- Dominus (warlord)

- 3x Breachers (arc rifles)

- 3x Destroyers (Grav/Phosphor)

 

Cohort Cybernetica

 

- Dominus (IWND relic)

- 2x Kastelan Maniples (cognis relic on one of engineseers)

 

Skitari Detachment

 

- 8x Vanguard (2 arc rifles)

- 8x Vanguard (2 arc rifles)

- 7x Vanguard (carbines only)

- Onager (neutron)

- Onager (neurton)

 

 

Was a very fun game, but in the end his generally high toughness, power armour force was just no match for the firepower i'd brought.

The vanguard scouted forward, taking hull points off vehicles (backed up by the breachers), or just outright murdering squads. 

Plague marines at toughness 5 (and toughness 6 bikers) simply evaporated in front of massed radium (gotta love those sixes) and the S6 AP3 shots the kastellans were putting out. That unit being able to split fire between 4 different units as it likes is a godsend too. 

 

One big drawback I had was that the list is very slow once you get past the initial scout/move and shoot you get with the vanguard on the first turn. My opponent was actually still 1-2 points ahead due to maelstrom cards at the end of turn 4 (id literally had no objectives in my own half the whole game) but conceded because with a turn to go, as he was down to one wounded squad of cultists, whereas my entire army was utterly intact apart from losing about 15 vanguard (no wounds on the admech side of things at all!). 

 

Was hugely pleased with the result as a first runout.. the cohort cybernetica is ridiculous against meq lists. Was worried about it not really making its points back (around 800 points is a lot for me to put into one unit!) but the threat range on it and split fire makes it pretty deadly.

 

Obviously aware that he probably hadn't brought the best list to go against me though, small numbers of high T models is what this list excels at killing (even when i forgot that heavy grav cannons have 6, not 5 shots, and that my destroyers also had phosphor weapons to fire ha!)

 

 

Current thinking is where to go next for 1850 points. Would love to fill out on vanguard as i find them an incredibly effective unit for a dual anti armour/infantry role. Also id like to run a list not quite with as mch robot cheese, maybe one maniple, and more infantry...loads of vangard! (although realise that half the reason the kastellans become so deadly is because of the split fire and wound recover you get from the CC formation)

 

However i guess i could also swap the dominus in the cohort cybernetica out for cawl (is that legal), for an even more ridiculous unit....or maybe hed be better going with the servitors to try and draw some fire...leaving the dominus in the kastellans to heal wounds

[Tiger9gamer]

@DanPesci

 

awesome report man, Glad the boys in red robes did some work for ya! the maniple is fairly awesome as you found out, and I was happy to hear how much fun you got from it. also you must have had some really good rolls for those rad carbines!

 

regular maniples of robots is a little less good, but still provide the toughness you would want. the fire they can put out is decent, and quite strong if combined on one unit.

 

And yes, Cawl is legal and able to be switched out, but I don't know the viability of that yet. The dominus is good cause he can restore wounds easily, and he has some good ranged attacks at range while staying nice and cheap. Cawl is more short ranged and cannot heal his buddies unless he uses his canticle. 

[Tyriks]

@DanPesci

 

awesome report man, Glad the boys in red robes did some work for ya! the maniple is fairly awesome as you found out, and I was happy to hear how much fun you got from it. also you must have had some really good rolls for those rad carbines!

 

regular maniples of robots is a little less good, but still provide the toughness you would want. the fire they can put out is decent, and quite strong if combined on one unit.

 

And yes, Cawl is legal and able to be switched out, but I don't know the viability of that yet. The dominus is good cause he can restore wounds easily, and he has some good ranged attacks at range while staying nice and cheap. Cawl is more short ranged and cannot heal his buddies unless he uses his canticle.

Cawl served me much better than the dominus ever did, actually. He can't heal but the dominus is severely limited by his range there, so you can either cluster all your vehicles up (bad idea against mechanized guard) or have him only healing one vehicle (maybe two).

 

Conversely, I put Cawl front and center all alone, so he looked like an easy warlord kill. Between him soaking up shots from just about every big gun my opponent had (effectively tying up something like 4 times his points for most of the game) and giving my entire army a 4++ and triple IWND he kept my stuff alive much longer than the dominus would have. Some of that was circumstantial since some opponents won't gun so hard for Cawl, but an army wide 4++ works wonders! Statistically, that on its own is likely to prevent more wounds in a turn than a dominus could heal all game. And prevention is better than healing anyway, since you can't heal a dead model and you could lose a turn of movement or shooting waiting for the dominus to heal you.

 

That said, I do think Cawl would be better in a requisitioner or something, but I didn't have the points to add that.

[Tiger9gamer]

@Tykis

 

To each his own I guess! the only time I used cawl was in a giant apoc game where he died to an eversor assassin so My ideas are not from that much experience. on paper though I would have guessed that the dominus is more valuable than him in the cohort cybernetica.

[Charlo]

I only have two Kastellans (and a Castellax...) at the moment but I think I need another box or two, would like to run the Cybernetica formation for the Apoc game I've got coming up.

 

Can't wait to bounce back a D shot...

[DanPesci]

I only have two Kastellans (and a Castellax...) at the moment but I think I need another box or two, would like to run the Cybernetica formation for the Apoc game I've got coming up.

Can't wait to bounce back a D shot...

Just be aware you cant bounce back blast or templates

@Tykis

To each his own I guess! the only time I used cawl was in a giant apoc game where he died to an eversor assassin so My ideas are not from that much experience. on paper though I would have guessed that the dominus is more valuable than him in the cohort cybernetica.

My though twas to keep the dominus in the cohort cybernetica to heal wounds for the kastellans, and put cawl in my primary cult mech detachment to soak wounds for the grav destroyers. Youd then have 2 units worth a lot of points, that are going to draw a lot of fire, but hopefully can aslo soak it up (and means the vanguard and onagers are taking little to no fire)

also you must have had some really good rolls for those rad carbines

Aye i was having a good day, my mate not so good with armour rolls. However, with their ballistic skill boosted to 6/7? 6 carbines averages 14-15 hits, thats then 2-3 6s (hopefully), which is 4-6 wounds against any toughtness

Against small meq units its decent (just as good as bolters maths wise), but they really hurt plague marines who pay for extra toughness when you have 3-4 sixes come up on a dice roll! (you then have the s6 arc rifles adding to that).

[Vel'Cona]

IMO the best use for the Dominus now is as a wound-tank for the Kataphrons (with self repair) and a relic bearer (Memento Mortispex is absolutely mandatory these days). Other than that, Cawl pretty much buries him for an extremely reasonable cost.

That being said, how did Cawl die to an Eversor, Tiger9gamer? AFAIK the Eversor only has an AP3 sword at S5 with FC; Cawl's 2+/5++/5+++ (rerollable), d3 wound restoration and his own melee strikes should be able to wear down the Assassin in most scenarios, especially if he has a squad of robots (Kastelans especially) along for the ride . . .

[Tiger9gamer]

IMO the best use for the Dominus now is as a wound-tank for the Kataphrons (with self repair) and a relic bearer (Memento Mortispex is absolutely mandatory these days). Other than that, Cawl pretty much buries him for an extremely reasonable cost.

That being said, how did Cawl die to an Eversor, Tiger9gamer? AFAIK the Eversor only has an AP3 sword at S5 with FC; Cawl's 2+/5++/5+++ (rerollable), d3 wound restoration and his own melee strikes should be able to wear down the Assassin in most scenarios, especially if he has a squad of robots (Kastelans especially) along for the ride . . .

it was the fall of cadia event with harlequins in place of some chaos, they got him down to three wounds before they died, then an eversor charged in, did a wound in CQC, my turn he only healed one wound, and then next combat he rolled 3 ones and died horribly.

it's will always be a sore topic

an eversor topic.

[Charlo]

While not exactly HARD DATA... Built my first ten vanguard today and began prepping the 6 Kataphron.

 

I have the bug, that only ones and zeroes can logically satisfy.

 

Got some robots to build and then going to make some random servitors too for an Enginseer.

 

Just deciding on colours... Will be sure to report back when they have hit the battlefield.