AngelVeto Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 As the rumour thread keeps spilling over into other areas, and the history, origins, and tasks the first legion had to perform keep coming up I thought a new topic would be better. I for one have seen mention several times that the First were around during unification and battled on Terra, which I can't recall reading anywhere, so I would love somewhere to point to and say "this makes us the best" Or is it just conjecture and wishful thinking? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Almost every Legion partook in the Unification war in some way or another, and yes, the I Legion was one of the first to fight as a Legion. They are, as an organization, the oldest, and have access to some of the oldest, most potent equipment in the Legions. That makes the I Legion unique, not better. None can claim such a title but the XVI, whether any agree or not. They were the sons of the Warmaster, and were known to be best by all, to the sound of gnashing teeth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Almost every Legion partook in the Unification war in some way or another, and yes, the I Legion was one of the first to fight as a Legion. They are, as an organization, the oldest, and have access to some of the oldest, most potent equipment in the Legions. But where does it say that? I think you may be confusing the Unification Wars with the Great Crusade. Nobody debates that every legion had a role in the Crusades, but fighting to unify Terra? To my knowledge Terra was already unified, as the primarchs were developed on the big E's secret moon base. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Forgeworlds' HH books. The XVI earned the title 'Luna Wolves' for their part in the second siege of Luna. The XVII, cast as the Imperial heralds, laid waste to Antarctica, a religious holdout. The VIII Legion was the instrument that brought down the nation of Oxitania. The VII Legion was born from the siege of Roma, and bore that symbol of their very first honor to the 41st Millennium. The Primarchs were developed under the Himilazias. Luna was taken to increase Legionnaire implantation rates, for the upcoming Great Crusade, but was taken by Legionaries. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Here we go, Page 105 of HH:4, Iron Warrior section. They make mention of the ease of IV legion implantation rates, a boon of their gene-seed, and make mention that, due to their ability to successfully implant Legionaires at such an accellerated rate, they were able to swiftly stand alongside larger, more established Legions, like the I and V Legion. This would imply, since the IV Legion took part in the later years of Unification of Terra, that the I and V Legions have been fighting for far longer. This was also touched upon in Unremembered Empire, as the I Legion does their badass drill and ceremony set. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Which makes no sense based on previous time lines, but fair enough. Kinda kills the whole "entire point of the Thunder Warriors was the Unification Wars" story though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 " Here we go, Page 105 of HH:4, Iron Warrior section. They make mention of the ease of IV legion implantation rates, a boon of their gene-seed, and make mention that, due to their ability to successfully implant Legionaires at such an accellerated rate, they were able to swiftly stand alongside larger, more established Legions, like the I and V Legion." What does that have to do with the unification of terra? I could swear the unification was an undertaking of the thunder warriors. The original proto marines that were scrapped/culled/abandoned after the wars ended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 There's... been quite a few retcons with the Unification War. There are estimates which now lean towards nearly 500 years, from the second the Emperor's Thunder Warriors fired their first shot, to the death of the xenos construct-world at the edge of the Sol System, which marked the end of Unification, and was the first shot of the Great Crusade. All things are pointing to the I Legion having a very in-depth involvement in the Unification wars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 All things meaning what exactly? That quote isn't even about the 1st, its about the the 4th with an almost nonexistent head nod to the 1st. Nothing in that quote even remotely implies that ANY astartes were involved in the unification. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Wow, you aren't kidding, that's a heck of retcon, considering that GW itself has been marking the start of the Crusade as after Mars for a long time. The first stages of the Crusade were Luna, then Mars, then years of production (25-30), then mass expansion outward. If Unification took 500 years, then the Great Crusade was actually pretty sad, being less than half that time... Probably the first time I've actually been sad and angry over a FW expansion of the fluff, since now they are kinda crapping on the known timeline and ruining things that were pretty impressive before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 " Here we go, Page 105 of HH:4, Iron Warrior section. They make mention of the ease of IV legion implantation rates, a boon of their gene-seed, and make mention that, due to their ability to successfully implant Legionaires at such an accellerated rate, they were able to swiftly stand alongside larger, more established Legions, like the I and V Legion." What does that have to do with the unification of terra? The very next paragraph? The Legion fought first on Terra in the destruction of the final resisting elements there and then thoughout the pacification of Terra's Solar System. And that's just the IV Legion. Almost every Legion entry in the HH books points to the Legions taking part in the later stages of Unifcation, some even before, fighting as proto-Legions on Terra before eve Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 All things meaning what exactly? That quote isn't even about the 1st, its about the the 4th with an almost nonexistent head nod to the 1st. Nothing in that quote even remotely implies that ANY astartes were involved in the unification. What exactly are you arguing against? That was just one quote, which I brought up because of the OP's question, the focus of this topic. If you want to have a debate on whether the Legions actually took part in the Unifcation Wars (which there is far more evidence than this paltry quote), I would welcome the debate in the AoD forum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I hadn't had a chance to browse the fluff in the FW HH books yet, that was quite educational. Retcons indeed... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Prospero Burns had the Thousand Sons on terra finishing the last battles of the Unification Wars 150 years after the Uni wars were "Officially declared" over. They were there to pick up experience due to their delayed start to find a fix for the flesh change. The Emperor gave several smaller fiefdoms a period of time to close out their affairs and then gave them a Join or Die choice. If we add that in then the Uni wars could have well lasted 500 years..But yes.. the best place to find the info you seek outside of Forgeworld is in Unremembered Empire and a couple other novels in the HH line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Prospero Burns had the Thousand Sons on terra finishing the last battles of the Unification Wars 150 years after the Uni wars were "Officially declared" over. They were there to pick up experience due to their delayed start to find a fix for the flesh change. Which would effectively mean that they only had about a 50-75 year service duration during the actual Crusade... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I was only arguing that the quote given before had Nothing to do with the unification or the 1st (other that a brief mention). However that "next paragraph" bit silences my argument. This is a discussion of fluff, And as always in a fluff discussion (just as rules discussions) we should make sure to reference the correct books/etc. Allow us to carry on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 No offence meant, nor taken, brother. I hope you feel the same. I was simply pointing out that the I Legion was touched upon as being established as a full Legion, where the others like the XVIII and XX proto-Legions had roles in the later Unification, by their legion entries as well, despite being noted as quite small. A number of Legions were fighting for longer, and even developed a nasty reputation before they even left Terra (the XIX legion, f'rex, the entire page of 161, HH:3, the Crimson Sons of the VIII, etc). If the Lion and Guilliman ain't puling our legs in Unremembered Empire that the I Legion is the oldest established Legion, this could mean, potentially, that the I Legion was fighting as a brotherhood for an additional 250 years longer than their cousins. I'm a huge Unification Era fan, and even though I was not expecting the Legions to have a role in the Unification, nor of the extended timetable, I actually welcome it. It makes more sense to stretch the Unification to the edge of the Sol System, and establish a period of time to actually create the ships, men, Legionnaires, and material to conquer the entire galaxy. The prior timescale was interesting, but in reality made no sense considering the following events of the Crusade, and what would be needed to prosecute a lightning assault of the entire galaxy. I really look forward to seeing what the I Legion's early history is going to look like in FW's hands. I think we're in for a treat, personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 It's interesting, but what I think is sad is that so many people scream bloody murder at GW for additions like the Centurions, which aren't my cup of tea either, or some changes to the fluff for the Iron Hands or Templars, and yet FW taking a huge dump all over the previously established realitvely critical time lines for Unification, the Crusade and the HH is completely acceptable. I agree that the previously established timeline didn't make much sense, but that's what made it so impressive, IMO, that the Emperor was able to do so much with so little time across so vast a space. It also begs the question of "If the First was fighting as a Legion for so long, how the heck was the Lion able to adjust so much of the Legion to his own liking upon taking command?" (Same holds true for all the rest of the Legions) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 The Heresy fluff has been butchered since Horus Rising came out. We knew it was coming. It just happens that, in this case, I agree with the change. Some things, like how much the Primarchs have changed, I like a hell of a lot less. I'm just rolling with the punches as I can, man. Like we all do every time our favorite codex hits; hope for the best, prepare for the worst, right? The changes to Unification, though, have no true impact on the souls of the Legions, in the long run; not in the minds of the fans of those Legions / Chapters / Warbands. A change to the core tenants of you army's belief system, like what happened to the 40k Iron Hands, is bound to cause a ruckus. And it did. I'm not pointing fingers at either GW or FW for changing fluff, as they are both glass houses. So far, I just think FW's house is prettier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 It also begs the question of "If the First was fighting as a Legion for so long, how the heck was the Lion able to adjust so much of the Legion to his own liking upon taking command?" (Same holds true for all the rest of the Legions) Because the Emperor allowed the Lion (and other Primarchs) to do so. There are innumerable quotes citing how the Legions came to take on the aspects of their own Primarchs, both in temperament and fighting style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 It also begs the question of "If the First was fighting as a Legion for so long, how the heck was the Lion able to adjust so much of the Legion to his own liking upon taking command?" (Same holds true for all the rest of the Legions) Because the Emperor allowed the Lion (and other Primarchs) to do so. There are innumerable quotes citing how the Legions came to take on the aspects of their own Primarchs, both in temperment and fighting style. The Old Legion's gene-seed was no different than later in history, and the gene-seed born idiosyncrasies that make a Legion unique were already in place at a genetic level. When the Primarchs met their sons, they were met by sons who already thought just like them, or at least similarly. That would make them more compliant to their Father's changes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 None taken brother, as a member of the 6th i expect a little back and forth every time i step onto the rock ;-) I agree the changes in timeline fluff are a good thing as it fleshes out the past and gives us answers to questions we didn't even know we were asking. If the unification is being expanded upon then we should get lots of tasty fluff in the future and I'm all for tasty fluffy goodness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I guess that's where I have to tamp down on the biologist I am: genes don't have an impact on things like that. Your genes don't determine how you fight, genetic similarity doesn't influence how someone else can influence, yadda yadda... Guess I have to chalk that garbage up to SPACE MAGIC! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Pretty much, brother, lol. There's no arguing that there is a slight psychic echo of the Primarch stamped on every gene-seed, and this may have had more to do with temperament than actual genes, so yeah.... space magic, lol. None taken brother, as a member of the 6th i expect a little back and forth every time i step onto the rock ;-) *snort* As a member of the IV, everywhere my boots touch is a combat zone. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Not really. Space Marines are not just genetically and physically modified, but also mentally modified. Let's read that again. Genetically. Modified. The genes themselves are changed. The cells have new instructions for reproduced cells, so the organism changes fundamentally in structure and function...according to a plan. Then we have the minds, which are scrubbed and literally implanted with new information while you sellp, just like the Venture Brothers. But this is not just encyclopedic knowledge, but Manchurian Candidate x 10 to the 10,000th power level crap, and done by future scientists who have a vastly superior understanding of how the mind works, such that they can almost mold it like clay. Besides, using contemporary knowldege as one's basis to say "I know genetics do not work that way, so it isn't possible." is preposterous. Sorry to say that, although humanity has massively progressed with regards to knowldege of the human body and genetics in the last 200 years, we are still vastly ignorant and are barely scratching the surface of what there is to know about just ourselves. Comparing what we know to be "true" today would pale in comparison to what will be known 10,000 years from now, and it would be the grossest hubris to think that the levels of knowledge we have today would be even remotely comparable to that of 10,000 years in the future. It is therefore very plausible to say that the "space magic" of today will be the standard technology of the far future. And so, for us, it is not important to know how it could possibly work (because it would be like explaning how a computer works to a Medieval peasant), only accept that it does. No offence to any biologists/geneticist/neurolgtis intended. Just keep doing what you are doing, but don't accept that you know everything, for if you don't ask questions because you think you already know the answer (or assume something only works one way) you won't discover anything new, and then we will never have Space Marines. So, get back to work so that we can gentically reprogram cells to not become cancerous (or genetically modifying cells to kill cancerous cells, as it being done right now), people to not be born with physical/mental debilitations because the genes for such conditions have been modified/taken out of the parents' genes before they even "do the deed"), figure out how to regenerate/restore the functionality of nerve cells at a rate comparable to other cells, and all of the other things our simple understanding of biology/genetics/neurology hasn't even allowed us to ponder the questions for yet. You've got 10,000 years, starting now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308200-history-of-the-first-legion/#findComment-4058619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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