nevaenuffbass Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I have found a few discussions on this formation, but not many seem to look at it the same way as I am. I am growing to really like it. I would be using the skies of fury rule a lot. Dropping tactical combat squads and Dreadnaughts the assaulting with them. Many people speak of the turn 2 assault. Why can't it be a t1 assault. Raven flies on, Dreadnaughts (with Magna grapple) drop (deep strike) next to the enemy and charge. T2 a decent assault unit (death company) come on in a pod, or with jump packs, also close enough to assault. The whole time, the Ravens - decent gunships target what they can from the skies. In terms of supporting units, melta assault squads in drop pods (with homing beacon) target potential anti-air, or just put the homing beacon wherever I anticipate the death company will be required. Corbulo and / or kaeleen are included for reserve manipulation. I also see allied storm talons as having huge potential as they have good fire output and the enemy's anti-air assets will already be stretched. A common criticism of the list is that it is a tad transparent. But I see potential for flexibility. Against assault- heavy armies (space wolves with tac, daemonkin etc.) you can keep units in the Ravens and shoot them up from the relative safety of the skies, and use the assault unit (dc) for a targeted assault. It is unclear to me whether the tac sgts can use the triangulation rule from within the Ravens? Load out for the tac marines - while the flamer loadout is common, it may not always be the best. A strategy with shooty rather than assault dreadnoughts and a lascannon in a tac combat squad can be dropped out of the Ravens in objectives, or to draw enemy units close. Basically, you can deploy in t1 when the Ravens (should) come on. Before I rush out and buy 2 more Ravens and a third tac squad, I'd be keen for anyone's input on how this army plays. I guess it's handy that my mates tend to play 2500-3000 pt games so I can fit all this in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I'm interested in this formation as well. It seems to have been dismissed by alot of people, but I dont know anyone thats actually tried it. Hopfully one of our comrades here can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevaenuffbass Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 Just 3 Ravens coming on turn one seems worthwhile to me, and flamers make our tac squads better than most. Could also equip the sgt or close combat and put characters with the new ac squads, such that they are assault units. So much potential, but so many $$ and time fogr new ravens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 The monetary cost is quite large as is the "buy in" for the formation, it's what, at least 900 points ish? Plus whatever compulsory forces you want from the BSF accompanying it. Then you'll have max another 900 (including the compulsory) for the hammer of your forces. I love the idea and am aggressively looking for more Ravens on eBay to try it for sure :P I would be wary of putting dreads on the Ravens too. Losing a Raven, Tac Squad and Dread from some sky fire would be disastrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCommanderSamirus Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Ive found that pairing it with an archangel or flesh tearer detatchment is more effective than a bsf due to the bsf tax. Ive run it a few times alongside karlaen and some terminators to pretty good effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Ive found that pairing it with an archangel or flesh tearer detatchment is more effective than a bsf due to the bsf tax. Ive run it a few times alongside karlaen and some terminators to pretty good effect. Can units assault out of pods using the Ravens? And yeah Karlean and terms could do well, I just can't stand our Terms too much, really need some specific options in my opinion and like everyone they're over costed. Vanguard Vets though, a couple of units could work, or the intervention force. Or add a 4th Raven with the Stern/Van free wargear formation, that way you could get a lot more bang for your buck. And four Ravens, 3 Tac squads and 3 veterans is pretty nasty as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCommanderSamirus Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 According to the triangulation rule from the formation any unit in deepstrike reserve can assault. Units in deepstiking transports are still in deepstrike reserve according to the BRB so yes you can use it to assault out of pods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 The monetary cost are high but i buyed two ravens since the last 5th Edition Codex came out and shot one cheap on ebay. For Tacticals ive converted some Dark Vengance Tacs. I´ve just build an Turnament List today with the Flesh Tearer Strike Force (because of only one Hq) and the Angels Fury Formation. I give the tacs only one heavy flamer. In the FTSF i put one cheap techpriest for the ride in an SR one cheap scout unit and filled the rest with 2xassault terms(3Hammer 2 Claws) in Drop pods + a sicarian battle tank. I also take one converted Command Tank for the +1 Reserve Roll. In another list incarnation i took 2x Fragiosos in pods instead of the assault termies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucumon Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I've been using this formation and have a few comments on other threads that I will consolidate below... and for anyone who has a counter opinion. I'd love to hear about how to use it better. At 2,500 and 3,000 point games, it would really shine I feel. It is unclear to me whether the tac sgts can use the triangulation rule from within the Ravens? Yes, why wouldn't then? It seems to have been dismissed by alot of people, but I dont know anyone thats actually tried it. Yes you do. I have a couple battle reports up on the formation: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307619-1850-blood-angels-v-khorne-daemonkin/ http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305960-1850-blood-angels-vs-imperial-guard/ I have decided to continue to refine this formation and need to play test lots of different ideas... Just 3 Ravens coming on turn one seems worthwhile to me... This is the true power of the formation, IMHO. You can have 100% of your army on the table on turn 1... The assaulting after DSing isnt as useful in 1850 and lower games as you have so much tied up in the formation. Here are my random thoughts from the past: (1) SRs are well costed for what you get: bristling with weapons (seriously, take hurricane bolters), hard to kill, alpha strike capability, very mobile and versatile... Why would you take land raiders? The SR is harder to kill and has more firepower. Why would you take any variety of Predators? SRs are faster, have more firepower per point cost, and are harder to kill. The only viable Fast Attack replacement could be the vindicator where for the same point cost you can drop 2 large blast templates... (2) The Rock to their Scissors: Who usually brings enough to combat 3 flyers? (3) I've learned to kick the Tac squads out as soon as possible using Skies of Fury. So what if you lost a marine? You have 10 more. Also, combat squad your dudes, stick them in the same transport, then drop them off at objective markers as you zoom around. It's like an airborne drop (or bird droppings) and totally bad-arse. (4) The "assault" part of the SR is highly situational and somewhere between icing on the cake and a temptation you should never given into. These are gunboats meant to cruise the skies and dakka stuff up. Only drop them into Hover if there is no possibility of big nasties smacking them around. (5) Hurricane bolters are required. After you blow your load of Stormstrike missiles, this allows them to whittle down the enemy army. (6) IMPORTANT:Make sure you stick to target priority and kill any anti-flyer first; I cannot stress this enough. In my second game against CSM, a flying daemon prince with a lash of despair and iron arm with 2D6 attacks funked my game up. My biggest mistake was going after his keeper of secrets and other non-flying stuff while that one DP housed me. (7) I've been giving my tactical squads flamers due to their mobility. That combined with their bolters is great for dropping in and dakka-dakkaing things... I find it amusing to use full tactical squads to tar-pit assaulty units... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Having a really nasty idea forming in which you use the formation, and deep striking Vanguard and, surprise, the Sanguinor, and even the +1 attack banner (on whoever gets it). The idea is you use the vets (maybe in 32mm for maximum cheekyness) and charge as many multiple units as possible with two squads. Keep the Sanguinor in range for extra attacks. Vanguard ignore disordered charges and will get so many attacks (invest in a few power weapons) that they should ultimately break multiple units in your opponents army before they get to strike. Opponent then has to worry about the Obj Sec Tacs and Ravens! Plus the fluff and rule of cool is kind of insane. It's not a true victory though unless the impossible happens and you actually kill a Bloodthirster in combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Is there meanwhile an consence if Flyers can Score? Some Say RAW you measer it by the hull (vehicle) flyerstand is > 3" ergo flyers can seldom score (until the objektive lies in rage of 3" of the Flyer). Houseruled with my friends that the can score in hovermode. But on turneys that´s another thing. I also thought first that the ravens become also OS but only the tacs get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucumon Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I thought SRs could score if they went into hover and became a fast skimmer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I thought SRs could score if they went into hover and became a fast skimmer? Even so, you're supposed to leave it on the Flyer stand... Technically, Riot Earp is correct but only those who deserve to be dreadsocked play it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Jep that skimmer thing was one of my hopes but Jolemai is right. Now i hope gw faq this in the next rulebook faq (whenever this may be released..). Indeed i will Dreadshock their faith in false gods out of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucumon Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 What is the pertinent rule reference for this? I'd like to know so I am not surprised by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?400237-Scoring-with-Flyers I will test my list with angels fury with fragiosos on friday and report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucumon Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 ... That is both hilarious and depressing at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 No book to hand, but how does this combine with Grey Knights DSing turn one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevaenuffbass Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Having a really nasty idea forming in which you use the formation, and deep striking Vanguard and, surprise, the Sanguinor, and even the +1 attack banner (on whoever gets it). The idea is you use the vets (maybe in 32mm for maximum cheekyness) and charge as many multiple units as possible with two squads. Keep the Sanguinor in range for extra attacks. Vanguard ignore disordered charges and will get so many attacks (invest in a few power weapons) that they should ultimately break multiple units in your opponents army before they get to strike. Opponent then has to worry about the Obj Sec Tacs and Ravens! Plus the fluff and rule of cool is kind of insane. It's not a true victory though unless the impossible happens and you actually kill a Bloodthirster in combat. A good idea. I wonder if you wouldn't be better served by a few smaller units though. Using a locator beacon (drop pod or scout bikes) have death company with jump packs (x2) and a dread of some kind aboard the Ravens. The dread could assault vehicles / super heavies, the dc anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascalnz Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 thanks locumon for pointing out how situational the first turn assault utility is on the formation. doesn't even work in 1/3 of games:) I was thinking that having ahhh my brain...the special character priest... dang can't remember his name. would be great to up the ws and ini of the tac squads and any dreads you take, also to reroll a failed link save on a full raven:). taking a damocles command rhino would also be fantastic, you can up the reserve roll to a 2+ making it almost impossible to fail that first , extremely important reserve roll. If you are worried about taking objectives, place them on higher floors of ruins etc:) I've run three ravens for a very long time and hurricane bolsters are the absolute business, I'd also take the fighter ace upgrade. 35 points each is hella expensive, but getting 180 degree turns +1 bs or a preferred enemy bubble is an absolute riot. It can really up the alpha strike ability, which is super important to this list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Good shout on the Fighter Aces. For those that don't know what these are, a review can be found here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?400237-Scoring-with-Flyers I will test my list with angels fury with fragiosos on friday and report. ... That is both hilarious and depressing at the same time. B&C Thread about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I've been interested in running this as well seeing as I aleady own 2 Stormravens, but I assume the Teleport Homers only work when being on the table outside of the Stormravens, making the Augur Triangulation rule very hard to work. (If I'm incorrect on this matter then please say so, I'd love the Homers to work from inside the Ravens) And when ignoring the Augur rule, we have the extremely powerfull ability of 3 Stormravens coming onto the table turn 1, this is honestly huge. But you normally would not take 3 full tactical squads into them.... which makes it a lot worse. I'm torn basicly on how to utilize this formation, the overall thing feels incredibly messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Aegis Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 It does work from within the ravens, you measure from the hull, you could also have them drop out(with likely scatter of course.) As written you could use the formation to assault with drop podded units on turn one, but the ravens would have to come in first. At least for the tourney out in SoCal hosted by Frontline gaming(Usually have brilliant idea for balence.) say that you cannot use the homers at all on turn 1 which sounds reasonable to me, so that's how I usually play it at the FLGS when using this formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Zhukov, regular use of a Teleport Homer requires it to be on the table. Augur Triangulation is not a regular use. Not only can the Tactical Marines stay on board the Stormraven, but the effects are measured from the Stormraven's hull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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