*Furyou Miko Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/05/27/iraq-war-vet-is-not-amused-by-video-game.htm Apparently, an Iraqi war veteran in the US has made a claim against Henry Zhou over counts of plagiarism in Flesh and Iron... and the claim may have merit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 If I wasn't laughing so hard I might be angry. Flesh and Iron, if memory serves, takes place in a jungle ~40 thousand years from present day. The Iraq War took place in a desert during the present day. Unless this Infantryman has some magical "Flying Dutchman", I call shenanigans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4061893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Old news. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4061899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 If I wasn't laughing so hard I might be angry. Flesh and Iron, if memory serves, takes place in a jungle ~40 thousand years from present day. The Iraq War took place in a desert during the present day. Unless this Infantryman has some magical "Flying Dutchman", I call shenanigans. Did you read the article? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4061923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Old news. The claim have semi merit as the two passages are kinda similar, but I don't know if the case will be successful. Rather I'd bet on a private settlement off the books. Not like that book was good anyway. The only good read from the Bastion Wars was the first one on the Inquisitor- the second was garbage and the third had a lot of potential that it never lived up to. Zhou IMO would be a better Codex writer- the Blood Gorgons have some cool world building going on for their description (that almost makes them impossible to accurately represent on the TT with the current model line), but man they sure picked the most boring character to follow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4061927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/05/27/iraq-war-vet-is-not-amused-by-video-game.htm Apparently, an Iraqi war veteran in the US has made a claim against Henry Zhou over counts of plagiarism in Flesh and Iron... and the claim may have merit. Given that according to the article, the Iraqi War Veteran claims the "Space Marine" video game was based off of "Flesh and Iron", so he should be allowed to sue the Sega Corporation, I'll go out on a limb and say the claim does not in fact have merit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4061929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/05/27/iraq-war-vet-is-not-amused-by-video-game.htm Apparently, an Iraqi war veteran in the US has made a claim against Henry Zhou over counts of plagiarism in Flesh and Iron... and the claim may have merit. Given that according to the article, the Iraqi War Veteran claims the "Space Marine" video game was based off of "Flesh and Iron", so he should be allowed to sue the Sega Corporation, I'll go out on a limb and say the claim does not in fact have merit. Wat Well that's going to die in very short order then. Unless the US Army has been doing some super roids without me hearing, I'm pretty sure he didn't slaughter thousands of Iraqis and save a planet from a Chaos Invasion. Not unless he's been some having serious delusions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4061933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I'm curious about the details of his claim. The article didn't explain it at all. Having played Space Marine, I fail to see how any of that could have been based on anything that happened in the Iraq war, but who knows? Does anyone have any examples? Plagiarism is usually based on very specific passages and comparing the text side by side to show that someone had essentially copy-pasted and then edited it in some way. Is the soldier claiming this happened? Even if the details and setting are different, this could very well still be the case. I doubt it, but who knows? If you read a really exciting fight scenes in a book, and you happen to be writing a similar firefight, there can be a lot of creep. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4062044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 You don't remember when David Petraeus had to climb to the top of Saddam's palace in Baghdad and fistfight Hussein to the death to stop him from ascending as a daemon prince? It was all over Fox News. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4062076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 The 'merit' is referring to a couple of paragraphs that could trigger a plagiarism suit... but yes, it is pretty amusing. The sheer amount of journalistic inaccuracy involved is almost enough to make me cry, given that the website is a serious news site for lawyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4062083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Truckin Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Found this on the web in case anyone is curious about the alleged plagiarized passages - note this is from a disgruntled amazon shopper and not actual court evidence. I take no ownership of the following passages and am in no way attempting either knowingly or unknowingly to plagiarize the alleged plagiarized work. if posting this goes against board rules - this message will self destruct ( mods please delete ) Flesh And Iron"He had done it to deny the father a chance to see his children one last time. The men he lost in Lauzon and all the good soldiers killed under his command had not been given the chance to say goodbye to their loved ones...The last Baeder saw of the dying man...utterly despondent as he tried to find his children through the thickening smoke. Baeder had denied him the last chance to say goodbye. For some reason, Baeder felt a thrill of joy. It was something he had not wanted to become.They had made him this way."House To House"...but also to deny their father a chance to say good-bye. My brothers who died in the field got no such opportunity to say good-bye to those they loved, and I will afford none to this man... Their father, utterly despondent..as the white smoke filled the air around him... I robbed him of his final earthly joy. I delighted as I watched his life ebb away..What have I become?"The central units in both books are also known as 'the Ramrods'. Sergeant Major Pulver from Flesh and Iron, seems copied from Sergeant Major Faulkenberg in House To House - Faulkenberg gives up a superior technology rifle for a lesser one to help another soldier (p.62 Bellavia) and Pulver does too (p.275 Zou), their physical descriptions are near identical (p.211 of Zou and p.163 Bellavia). Depictions of a wounded soldier are also near identical in both books, complete with references to their lives being changed and rolling onto their stomachs (p.306 Zou). Insurgents mimic the voices of the US Army (p.205 Bellavia) and the insurgents do the same to the Imperial Guard (p.222 Zou). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4062117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Ah, now that seems a lot more clear and seems, at least on the surface, worth looking into. Trying to tie the video game into this seems like a blatant attempt to squeak more money out of a potentially embarrassing situation that's likely to be settled out of court, though. Really, how does any of that relate to the game at all? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4062122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Bellavia better have more arrows in his quiver than that, or else the lawyer representing him needs to have his bar license yoinked until he passes a three hour Copyright class. Neither "tough as nails Sergeant who swaps rifles with one of his men", "enemy troops mimicking the voices of the protaganists", nor "throwing a smoke grenade so a father can't have a last look at his children" are concepts you can hold a copyright on, even if you did win a Silver Star. All due respect to Mr. Bellavia for his service, but the only way this could be any more of a frivolous money grab is if he filed a "Motion For The Court To Award Me Damages for No Reason Whatsoever". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4062158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvilarium Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Who said anything about copyright? He's taking Zhou to court for plagiarism, not breach of copyright. Suits against Sega and Relic aside (which smacks of blatant money grabbing. My guess is that the Lawyer suggested that he added them to the suit), he does have a very good point if the claimed similarities above are true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4062897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Who said anything about copyright? He's taking Zhou to court for plagiarism, not breach of copyright. Suits against Sega and Relic aside (which smacks of blatant money grabbing. My guess is that the Lawyer suggested that he added them to the suit), he does have a very good point if the claimed similarities above are true. There is no tort or crime for "Plagarism" in the U.S. legal system. If he's actually suing for that and not copyright infringement, his lawyer needs to have his bar license revoked, full stop, and find a profession for which he is better suited. Such as ditch digging or town rat catcher. (No offense to any ditch diggers or rat catchers on the B & C.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Truckin Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Cause of action is Copyright Infringement according to the docket. Defendant: Henry Zou, Simon & Schuster, Free Press, Games Workshop Ltd, Games Workshop Plc, The Black Library, Relic Entertainment, Relic Entertainment, Inc. and Sega of America, Inc. Plaintiff: David Bellavia Case Number: 1:2015cv00452 Filed: May 21, 2015 Court: New York Western District Court Office: Buffalo Office County: Erie Nature of Suit: Copyright Cause of Action: 17:101 Copyright Infringement Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 His case against Flesh and Iron is rock-solid, and it's disgraceful that BL have kept it on sale, but the damages resulting from a B-list BL novel probably wouldn't cover the cost of paying a lawyer to tell you not to waste your time. He'll have included Sega in a desperate attempt to wring some real money out of someone. golly gee is Space Marine supposed to have plagiarised? The bit where Bellavia jumps out of the back of a transport wearing a jump pack, or the bit at the end of battle of Fallujah where Bellavia punched a Daemon Prince to death with his bare hands? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Zou was/is a serviceman for either Australia or some other place where they have huge, dangerous, and cuddly wildlife. If he didn't experience some of the same things as Bellavia he sure as hell heard about them from the veterans. I didn't serve in the "Sandbox" but I sure did hear the stories. They sound similar to what both men are talking about. Oh no, my buddies plagiarized Zou's and Bellavia's ideas ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 It's not a question of ideas. In Flesh and Iron, Zhou lifted passages of text from House to House almost word for word. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 To me it is ideas. I don't see anything looking at the evidence gleamed from a book review that shows anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 This is the description of the character Giles Pulver, who is supposed to have been copied from Sergeant Major Faulkenberg in Bellavia's book. "The sergeant was the most senior non-officer in the battalion, a rough shed of pure Ousivian frontier stock and a swamp rat through and through. He wore non issue snakeskin boots and a flak vest over his bare torso in total disregard for regulation. His beard was longer than any other soldiers, his uniform more faded, and his hands more calloused. In short, he was everything Baeder was not." I haven't read "House to House", but was Faulkenberg a bearded Cajun running around the desert with no shirt and snakeskin boots? Because that seems just a tad unlikely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 My own personal view on this, is that if someone took real events from my life story, events that changed my life in the deep and profounding ways that combat can cause, events that occurred surrounding the last moments I had with brothers in arms, and retold them as his own fictional story without even acknowledging their providence, I would be deeply upset. Upset to the point that a lawsuit, no matter how frivolous, would probably be the most healthy and measured response I could take. As far as bringing in the video game into the lawsuit, my guess would be that they will try to argue that the author's plagerized books helped create the setting that the game takes place in, and therefore the game is a product of the plagerism and fair game. However this is flawed, because the setting was firmly established without Zou's books, and nothing he specifically created appeared in the game, as far as I know, I only got past the first level before loosing interest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Thanks a lot, Wade. Now I have to go reread Flesh and Iron because that snippet caught my eye ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4063944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 What is the difference between a Shout-out, or reference, and plagiarism? The story in itself is as far I understand, completely different. I mean, what happened here is a passage that looks like another, which let us remind ourselves it happens quite often. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4064456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 I haven't read "House to House", but was Faulkenberg a bearded Cajun running around the desert with no shirt and snakeskin boots? Because that seems just a tad unlikely. That isn't the description being referenced. It's another pair of passages where the protagonists realise the respective sergeant is short and wiry, but his force of personality always made him seem like a much bigger man. I mean, what happened here is a passage that looks like another, which let us remind ourselves it happens quite often. It's not one passage, it's at least half a dozen, plus specific details that are identical in each book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308349-uh-oh-someones-in-trou~ble/#findComment-4064571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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