Uh oh, someone's in trou~ble

[Wade Garrett]

That isn't the description being referenced. It's another pair of passages where the protagonists realise the respective sergeant is short and wiry, but his force of personality always made him seem like a much bigger man.

 

So he thinks he can copyright the concept of short people with forceful personalities. I can't wait for his lawsuit against New Line Entertainment and the estate of JRR Tolkien.

[Lucien Eilam]

No, he doesn't. I think maybe you need to go read the actual books, and probably a bit about intellectual property law. Commenting from a position of ignorance is leading you to ridiculous conclusions.

 

You don't have copyright on your ideas but you most certainly do to their expression.  Once might have been a coincidence, but for Flesh and Iron as a whole to be a coincidence, Henry Zou must be able to produce one of Shakespeare's plays every time he mashes the keyboard.

[A D-B]

 

That isn't the description being referenced. It's another pair of passages where the protagonists realise the respective sergeant is short and wiry, but his force of personality always made him seem like a much bigger man.

So he thinks he can copyright the concept of short people with forceful personalities. I can't wait for his lawsuit against New Line Entertainment and the estate of JRR Tolkien.

 

 

Plagiarism is a matter of the same words being used in the same order, rather than a repetition of (or similarity between) concepts. Whether or not it's legally plagiarism comes down to just how many words, sentences, etc. are re-used in the same context.

 

This did the rounds about 5 years ago, and the similarities in question are far more than vague concepts, as this review listed: http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/184416814X/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

 

That said, at the risk of being extremely boring, you can safely bet GW's legal folks went over this at the time with a fine-toothed comb half a decade ago (it was quite the hot topic on forums back then for a while, too) and it's probably a safe guess to say nothing new will come of it now. 

[Razic]

I forget the name at the moment, but there was another Imp guard novel that seemed to be based on real life events/book.  It read exactly like the mission to rescue downed helicopter pilots in Black Hawk Down. In this BL book it was some crack guard unit rescuing a titan's crew from their destroyed titan.  Anyone know what I'm talking about? It wasn't very good.  I picked up on it right away, however it felt like it was more of a nod of respect to the incident in Somalia as opposed to ripping it off, if I'm correct of course.

 

**edit, I think it was Redemption Corps by Rob Sanders**

[Wade Garrett]

This did the rounds about 5 years ago, and the similarities in question are far more than vague concepts, as this review listed: http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/184416814X/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

 

By the standards laid out in that review, I can argue that "The Talon of Horus" is plagiarized from "Legend" by David Gemmell (Nefari & Khayon discussing "explaining colors to a blind man" as a member of the Thirty does with Rek, the description of the beastman overseer that Khayon heals having all his wounds to the front compared to the description of Druss' wounds when he's being treated by the outlaw archer girl), and thus Black Library owes Mr. Gemmell's estate some of Talon's profits.

 

But those are, thankfully, not the standards used by actual legal systems. By those standards, the case of Estate of Gemmell v. Bowden completely breaks down once we move from "Ah ha! This paragraph and this paragraph are almost identical" to looking at the two works in totality. Just because two books contain a couple of paragraphs that are similar or even identical does not a successful case for copyright infringement make.

 

"Flesh and Iron" and "House to House" are in a similar situation. Unless Bellavia's book is how he and a rag tag bunch of Cajuns traveled up the Tigris and Euphrates river to disable Saddam Hussein's super cannon, only to be framed for crimes they didn't commit and join ISIS to survive their treacherous commanders turning on them.

[Rain]

He isn't claiming that Zhou's book is an infringing reproduction though, he is claiming that it is an infringing derivative work. Derivative work is a very vague concept that is more or less what the court thinks it is, as it includes "any [ ] form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted" (18. U.S.C. 101). Derivative works may be, and usually are, partially original, and may in fact even be copyrighted in of themselves, though the copyright would only extend to the original portions, and a license would be needed for the non-original portions. Zhou and BL obviously did not license anything from this other guy, so he is suing. I'm not a copyright expert, but I'd say it's meritorious enough for GW to throw a few dollars his way just to save the litigation expense.

 

If the quotes provided in the Amazon review are true, Zhou probably knowingly copied some passages from House to House and many judges really don't like that kind of thing. Unfortunately, for better or worse actual legal systems are controlled by judges and (god help us) juries, and knowingly engaging in funny business (legal term of art) tends to not go over well with them. By way of example, I remember talking to a very successful litigation attorney who said that his secret was always squaring his shoulders and not wearing a wedding ring around a female dominated jury. I don't think he was joking. It's really that bad. Plagiarism bad. Doesn't matter than it's not a "real" cause of action. It's bad. Don't do it. Pay the man. Just my .02.

[Xisor]

Part of that original review AD-B links to hints at something I found a little uneasy in the otherwise grand Fire Caste - that is, the reliance on real world stereotypes for... verisimilitude. 

 

The very strong (to my uncultured, stereotyping British eyes) 'yankee' feel of the Guard in that came off as really... awkward. I can see why Fehervari did as he does, and I can't deny that it worked - it was very readable. But it left me feeling quite off with things.

 

The same goes for Captain Japan in The Outcast Dead, wherein you've got a walking bundle of stereotypes masquerading as a character. (And, much to my chagrin, doing a fine job of it. The Captain Japan PoV bits were my personal favourites in the novel - despite the Captain Japan nonsense.)

 

It's one thing for Scotty in Star Trek to be Scottish and have a few certain character traits and features. It's something else for him to also be sporting a kilt, wielding a claymore, in charge of the Enterprise's finances and his favourite hobby is a futuristic mixture of caber-tossing and sword-dancing. And counter to the era he lives in, he aspires to a heavy-drinking, deep-frying cultural ideal. 

 

In short, it's something I find a bit distasteful in any situation. The homage, the reference might have been intentional on Zhou's part and then slipped away and was forgotten about - it might have been inadvertent (though still plagiarism), it might have been inadvertent (and not at all plagiarism, merely confluence of ideas), it might be a minor, cheap bit of borrowing that had it been substantial enough to be plagiarism or copyright infringement could have been serious, but largely was subtle and small enough that even if it was malicious, it's a non-entity.

 

Being not a lawyer in this field, it's difficult to say.

 

---

 

In other news, can an author plagiarise themselves and defraud their employer/consumers by wholesale re-using pieces from other works? I remind myself of it by mentioning The Outcast Dead - Magnus' arrival in the Emperor's presence is two or three pages of word-for-word, character-for-character reprint of the original piece in A Thousand Sons.

 

I'm sure there's artistic reason behind it, but it's a dud for me and left me feeling quite disappointed by it. "Come on," I thought. "I don't want to just re-read A Thousand Sons - even if you are trying to making a point about there being one, single, unique, fixed point in both of the stories or something..."

[A D-B]

He isn't claiming that Zhou's book is an infringing reproduction though, he is claiming that it is an infringing derivative work. 

 

Here we reach the end of my very limited knowledge of the subject's law. Which is to say, right at the start. I thought it was a plagiarism case - not unfairly, given the fact it was mentioned in most posts as plagiarism on this thread, including the opening post, all the topics five years ago, and the discussions I had with relevant people about it back then. And plagiarism has specific criteria that need to be met, hence my reply. Still, you know what you get when you assume. My bad.

 

 

 

This did the rounds about 5 years ago, and the similarities in question are far more than vague concepts, as this review listed: http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/184416814X/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

By the standards laid out in that review, I can argue that "The Talon of Horus" is plagiarized from "Legend" by David Gemmell (Nefari & Khayon discussing "explaining colors to a blind man" as a member of the Thirty does with Rek, the description of the beastman overseer that Khayon heals having all his wounds to the front compared to the description of Druss' wounds when he's being treated by the outlaw archer girl), and thus Black Library owes Mr. Gemmell's estate some of Talon's profits.

 

But those are, thankfully, not the standards used by actual legal systems. By those standards, the case of Estate of Gemmell v. Bowden completely breaks down once we move from "Ah ha! This paragraph and this paragraph are almost identical" to looking at the two works in totality. Just because two books contain a couple of paragraphs that are similar or even identical does not a successful case for copyright infringement make.

"Flesh and Iron" and "House to House" are in a similar situation. Unless Bellavia's book is how he and a rag tag bunch of Cajuns traveled up the Tigris and Euphrates river to disable Saddam Hussein's super cannon, only to be framed for crimes they didn't commit and join ISIS to survive their treacherous commanders turning on them.

 

 

You're right, and I agree... but you're also wrong about the specifics (in terms of legal plagiarism). Similar scenes and similar phrasing exist absolutely everywhere. Those are actually good examples of the opposite of what I meant, though. You mention Rek and Menahem, but that's a similar situation (sensory limitations explained to someone without additional senses) rather than the exact same words, or even similar analogies, used. There's nothing "identical" there. For clarity, to prove what I mean, I'll get the exact text:

 

Rek and Menahem discussing looking into the future, in the Mists of Time:

 

'I'm sorry, Menahem. You look worn out,' said Rek, 'but try to remember that we know nothing of what you're talking about. Into the mists? What the devil does that mean?'

 

Menahem sighed. 'How does one explain colours to a blind man?'

 

'One says,' snapped Rek, 'that red is like silk, blue is like cool water, and yellow is like sunshine on the face.'

 

'Forgive me, Rek. I am tired, I did not mean to be rude,' said Menahem. 'I cannot explain the mists to you  as I understand them. But I will try to give you some idea.'

 

(He then goes on to explain.)

 

---   ---   ---

 

Khayon and Nefertari discussing what it feels to be near Rubric Marines:

 

On more than one occasion, I had tried to explain the living-dead contradiction to Nefertari, but the right words always failed me. The last time we'd spoken of it, it had ended particularly poorly.

 

"They are there and not there," I'd said to her. "Husks. Shadows. I cannot explain it to someone without the second sight. It is like trying to describe music to someone born deaf."

 

At the time, Nefertari had run her clawed gauntlet down Makari's helm, her crystal nails scraping over one staring red eye lens. Her skin was whiter than milk, paler than marble, translucent enough to show faint cobwebs beneath the skin of her angular cheeks. She looked half-dead herself.

 

"You explain it," she had replied with a dry, alien smile, "by saying that music is the sound of emotion, expressed through art, from musician to audience."

 

I had nodded at her elegant rebuttal, but said nothing more.

 

(He then doesn't explain anything.)

 

---   ---   ---

 

Firstly, Jesus Christ, Khayon is dense at times. No wonder that book took me so long to write.

 

Secondly, yeah, I take your point that comparisons like this can be made between X-milion books, because... of course they can. I agree with you. Especially when writers use the rule of three, which many often do. It gives sentences similar cadence. See also: the South Park episode: The Simpsons Already Did It.

 

Don't get me wrong, I take your wider point and can see why one context/phrasing reminded you of the other, but your example there is literally the opposite of making this specific case. That's a similar situation, but nothing like plagiarism - the context is different, they're talking about wildly different things, the end result is different, they don't use remotely the same words in the same order, etc. etc. No one in their right minds would say that was plagiarism. A court would laugh it out within a few seconds, as you note yourself.

 

There's not even a plagiarism case between what Rek and Menahem say in Legend and what Eric Stoltz's character says in the movie Mask, where he literally does explain colours to a blind person by saying red is hot, blue is cold, etc. I mean, it's a pretty common trope. Again, similar situation, but not exact repetition of words, and it's that which defines plagiarism - at least as other writers and agents explained to me 5 years ago when this did the rounds, and I was curious about the consequences (if any) that BL might face.

 

Compare any of that to this from the Amazon review:

 

Colonel Baeder throwing a smoke grenade so a dying insurgent cannot see his children prior to his death:

 

"He had done it to deny the father a chance to see his children one last time. The men he lost in Lauzon and all the good soldiers killed under his command had not been given the chance to say goodbye to their loved ones...The last Baeder saw of the dying man...utterly despondent as he tried to find his children through the thickening smoke. Baeder had denied him the last chance to say goodbye. For some reason, Baeder felt a thrill of joy. It was something he had not wanted to become.They had made him this way."

 

---   ---   ---

 

Sergeant Bellavia throwing a smoke grenade so a dying insurgent cannot see his children prior to his death:

 

"...but also to deny their father a chance to say good-bye. My brothers who died in the field got no such opportunity to say good-bye to those they loved, and I will afford none to this man... Their father, utterly despondent..as the white smoke filled the air around him... I robbed him of his final earthly joy. I delighted as I watched his life ebb away..What have I become?"

 

---   ---   ---

 

There's no comparison: Legend, Mask, and Talon are nothing alike compared to those two. Again, however, I'm just going by what other peeps in the trade say. I don't say that any side has a case in all this; in fact, I said the opposite given that GW's law-folks likely went over it with a fine-toothed comb half a decade ago and it went nowhere. Plagiarism is taken very, very seriously.

 

And you're right, it's just a paragraph here and there, and you're doubly right, it looks shaky as a case to we free laymen. Anyway, I'm reluctant to look like I have a horse in this race (I don't) or that I'm fuelling any fires (I'm not) so I'll bow out here. This is waaaaayyyy above my pay grade and/or legal intelligence level and/or actual intelligence level.

 

tl;dr -- I agree with you. I'm just saying that legally, as I was told it by industry people assumingly in the know, your examples aren't great example of of why you're right. (There's a certain understandable level of me defending and disproving the accusation, too.) But if it's not a plagiarism case, as it doesn't seem to be, then all this plagiarism talk is meaningless and irrelevant anyway. So we're both right, but both right about the wrong thing, and therefore we both suck. I still love you, though.

[Rain]

Well, it sort of it a plagiarism case, ish, I mean in layman's not-legal-nerd terms

 

Wade was completely correct in saying that "plagiarism" is not a legal cause of action, at least in any American jurisdiction of which I am aware (I am wholly ignorant of international law). That said, copyright protection extends not only to direct reproduction so, say, if I decided to sell my ebook file of Talon of Horus for 5 bucks a pop,but also to "derivative works". These can either be a recasting of a work in a new medium (say, a Talon of Horus radio drama) or even a mostly original work that includes parts or characters taken from copyrighted works (though many such key characters are also trademarked). It can also be a different spin/location for the same story, kind of like Romeo and Juliet and West Side Story or Hamlet and Lion King. I can practically guarantee you that both would have been legally acted upon, has one Mr. Shakespeare not been unavailable for the pleasure of the court.

 

Ah-en-ee-way if I had to guess, I would say that the plaintiff's lawyer will argue that by recasting certain events in House to House into a science fiction setting, Zhou's work was a derivative work, and damages are therefore owed as well as an injunction on further publication of the book and blah blah, but it will never get there. GW will make it quietly go away.

[Anvilarium]

 

So he thinks he can copyright the concept of short people with forceful personalities. I can't wait for his lawsuit against New Line Entertainment and the estate of JRR Tolkien.

 

 

 

If you are honestly saying that you can't see the blatant theft of ideas that is shown right here in these two passages (plus at least half a dozen other instances according to the legal documentation), maybe you should just walk away from this thread Wade...

 

Colonel Baeder throwing a smoke grenade so a dying insurgent cannot see his children prior to his death:

 

"He had done it to deny the father a chance to see his children one last time. The men he lost in Lauzon and all the good soldiers killed under his command had not been given the chance to say goodbye to their loved ones...The last Baeder saw of the dying man...utterly despondent as he tried to find his children through the thickening smoke. Baeder had denied him the last chance to say goodbye. For some reason, Baeder felt a thrill of joy. It was something he had not wanted to become.They had made him this way."

 

 

Sergeant Bellavia throwing a smoke grenade so a dying insurgent cannot see his children prior to his death:

 

"...but also to deny their father a chance to say good-bye. My brothers who died in the field got no such opportunity to say good-bye to those they loved, and I will afford none to this man... Their father, utterly despondent..as the white smoke filled the air around him... I robbed him of his final earthly joy. I delighted as I watched his life ebb away..What have I become?"

[Razic]

BTW, for those who haven't read House to House, it is an excellent read, super intense.  This Youtube clip is of Sgt Bellavia's squad in a firefight which is specifically described in the book.

 

[Hyaenidae]

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Be at peace, Brothers and Sisters. There is no reason to let this get heated.

 

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[The Doctor Of War]

I'm curious how the accused plagiarism can be linked to Sega, even if somehow it was shown the creators of Space Marine used anything from Zhou's books. When Relic made Space Marine, they were owned by THQ, all content issues would have been overseen by THQ, so where does Sega come into this? When they bought the studio, which did not include the rights to 40k, did they inherit responsibility for all potential future legal issues?

[JeffTibbetts]

I'm curious how the accused plagiarism can be linked to Sega, even if somehow it was shown the creators of Space Marine used anything from Zhou's books. When Relic made Space Marine, they were owned by THQ, all content issues would have been overseen by THQ, so where does Sega come into this? When they bought the studio, which did not include the rights to 40k, did they inherit responsibility for all potential future legal issues?

You nailed it in the last sentence. As far as I know that's exactly what happens when you acquire a company. You take the good with the the bad. Their claiming the game is dubious, but not for that reason.

[The Doctor Of War]

 

I'm curious how the accused plagiarism can be linked to Sega, even if somehow it was shown the creators of Space Marine used anything from Zhou's books. When Relic made Space Marine, they were owned by THQ, all content issues would have been overseen by THQ, so where does Sega come into this? When they bought the studio, which did not include the rights to 40k, did they inherit responsibility for all potential future legal issues?

You nailed it in the last sentence. As far as I know that's exactly what happens when you acquire a company. You take the good with the the bad. Their claiming the game is dubious, but not for that reason.

 

 

Thanks for clearing it up, i wasn't sure how things would work, given the dissolution of THQ.

[Daevyll]

 See also: the South Park episode: The Simpsons Already Did It.

 

 

Why did you use up a whole page of valuable Internet Real Estate, when you could have simply limited your post to the line above with the same effect?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

 

So he thinks he can copyright the concept of short people with forceful personalities. I can't wait for his lawsuit against New Line Entertainment and the estate of JRR Tolkien.

 

 

 

If you are honestly saying that you can't see the blatant theft of ideas that is shown right here in these two passages (plus at least half a dozen other instances according to the legal documentation), maybe you should just walk away from this thread Wade...

 

Colonel Baeder throwing a smoke grenade so a dying insurgent cannot see his children prior to his death:

 

"He had done it to deny the father a chance to see his children one last time. The men he lost in Lauzon and all the good soldiers killed under his command had not been given the chance to say goodbye to their loved ones...The last Baeder saw of the dying man...utterly despondent as he tried to find his children through the thickening smoke. Baeder had denied him the last chance to say goodbye. For some reason, Baeder felt a thrill of joy. It was something he had not wanted to become.They had made him this way."

 

 

Sergeant Bellavia throwing a smoke grenade so a dying insurgent cannot see his children prior to his death:

 

"...but also to deny their father a chance to say good-bye. My brothers who died in the field got no such opportunity to say good-bye to those they loved, and I will afford none to this man... Their father, utterly despondent..as the white smoke filled the air around him... I robbed him of his final earthly joy. I delighted as I watched his life ebb away..What have I become?"

 

Theft of ideas is a crime now? Someone get the Tolkien estate on the phone, might be able to make some money of GW...

[Hyaenidae]

The horse is dead, please stop beating it.

 

This topic has run it's course.

 

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