Monkeychunks Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Hi all, Simple question for you all today. Direct quote from the red book: "Any model with the Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule which has access to a chainsword can instead take a chainaxe for free as long as this is appropriately represented on the model." Very simply, how to interpret this? From a RaW point, I can see an argument that having the option for a chainsword, allows me to take the 'axe for zero points. Not that I pay for the chainsword and then upgrade it for free, but that I actually get the whole piece of kit for zero points. 1) I buy a Tactical for 10pts 2) The Tactical 'has access to a chainsword' for 2pts. 3) He is therefore allowed to 'instead take a chainaxe for free'. 4) I now have a Tactical with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and AP4 chainaxe, who still costs 10pts/model. Is this the correct way to read this rule? Because if so, a WE Marine is effectively rocking Rage, Hatred, Furious Charge, AP4 and +1A over his brothers for his LA:WE and a Rite of War. Delicious if true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 No you have to pay the 2pts for the Chainsword! Because you are a World Eater that chainsword is no longer a chainsword it is now a chainaxe! Your Tactical squad costs 12pts per model not 10pts! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 You still have to have the chainsword first. 2 pts for a chainaxe isn't a bad deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 As Scion said - for tacticals you must pay for the Chainsword in the first place and only then can you exchange it. The exchange itself is free, but you can only do so if you have the Chainsword which you must pay for. So it's the price of the tactical, plus the chainsword, then you can chance the chainsword to the chainaxe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Where does it say we exchange the chainsword? Or that the chain sword much be bought? Especially when the Caedrere Weapon entry specifically says to exchange the chainsword (or combat blade) for a Caedere Weapon. Monkey quoted the rule correctly, word for word. It says "access to". Not "has". Not "exchange". So yes, you get free chainaxe as long as it's represented on the model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Where does it say we exchange the chainsword? Or that the chain sword much be bought? Especially when the Caedrere Weapon entry specifically says to exchange the chainsword (or combat blade) for a Caedere Weapon. Monkey quoted the rule correctly, word for word. It says "access to". Not "has". Not "exchange". So yes, you get free chainaxe as long as it's represented on the model. Well in that case Dude he cannot get Chain Axes in his Tacticals because Tacs don't get them!!! The only way World Eaters can gain "Access to" Is If they Buy Chainswords!!! Don't buy Chainswords = Don't get Chainaxes! Simples! Enjoy your White Russian. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Where does it say we exchange the chainsword? Or that the chain sword much be bought? Especially when the Caedrere Weapon entry specifically says to exchange the chainsword (or combat blade) for a Caedere Weapon. Monkey quoted the rule correctly, word for word. It says "access to". Not "has". Not "exchange". So yes, you get free chainaxe as long as it's represented on the model. I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. It does not say you must purchase and swap for a chainaxe. Other various special rules state that you must swap one thing for another, yet this one just says have access to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Scion, you're going to have to quote some rules to back your view. "Access to" means able to buy...not own. And we have many other instances where we are very specifically told to exchange one thing for another. This clause is not present in the paragraph about WE and their relationship with chainaxes. There is not even and implied ownership requirement, much less a direct one to gain a free chainaxe. So yes, it is quite "Simples". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I have to disagree there are many legion specific rule witch clearly state that a model with access to war gear "A" can instead take war gear "B" for the same price, example solarite power gauntlets for the Imperial Fists it's not free and it clearly states that. the chain axe rule for world eaters is quite clear, models with access to chainswords get chain axes for free not that they can buy them for the same amount of points so as cheese as it sounds WE get free chain axes unless someone has seen this rule clearly countered by a FW email or errata Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 What access does a model without a chainsword have access to a chainsword? None. They do have an option for it however. Which is wording used with every other alternative weapon swap such as with power weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I'm not understanding your point, Hesh. You don't have to have possession of somehng to have access to it. I have access to everything in a grocery store but don't own any of it. The paragraph also does not say to exchange one for the other. This is not the only upgrade option that has this wording in the game, heck it's not even new to 40k. Im not sure how this rule could be worded any clearer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I also feel it is quite clear any other unique weapon upgrade in all the books states if you need to swap for it or pay a pts cost the WE rules clearly states free and as far as "access to" goes hisdudeness is correct the rule does not say any marine "equipped" with a chainsword may swap for a chain axe for free it says has "access to" I know it's a really strong rule but it plays to there legion flavor man they more then anybody would just load up with blobs of close combat tacs and come at you and this rule makes that a viable option. not saying I'm an expert but this is one of forgeworld least ambiguously written rules in my humble opinion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Having read a few of the other legion rules, I'm now in two minds about it since the rules are written so differently. But I stand by Scion and my own thoughts. The thing that makes both arguments fall over are the conflicting words 'access to' and 'instead'. So sure, they have access to it in their wargear, but at present, Tacticals do not have a chainsword on their base profile (unless of course they buy it with +2pts per model). So how can they then take the Chainaxe 'instead' of the chainsword, since they do not already have a chainsword? Obviously this works differently for Assault squads who already have 'access' to chainswords because they already own them in their base profile and can therefore have a Chainaxe 'instead' of. May I highly recommend an e-mail to Forge World if the wording still perplexes everyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 A model doesn't have access to a chainsword though unless it pays 2pts. That is like standing outside a bank and saying you have access to all the money in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 In my understanding a model has "access" to all the options in its wargear options but is not "equipped" with them unless you pay the points for them, and the wording is clearly "access to" not "equipped with" but Infyrana is correct if you have a world eater in you're local meta and question his/her use or not use of chain axes then we should just email FW and then the matter is settled regardless of all our semantic preferences lol in the VII legion we just shoot them whether or not they have chainaxes or chicken nuggets in there hands, the only good WE is one full of bolter holes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeychunks Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 Thanks for the discussion thus far, glad to see that it's not an obviously-wrong interpretation. I've sent an email over to Forge World for a more 'official' standing and will post the reply as soon as it gets in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 As have I, will be interesting to see our collective results :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I think you two are misunderstanding the word 'access'. Ownership or possession is not a requirement for access to something. Nowhere are we told to exchange one for the other, so ownership is not a stated requirement for a free chainaxe. The only stated requirements is that you are able to be equipped with a chainsword (access to) and have the WE Legion rules. Nothing else. No additional cost. No ownership of a chainsword. No exchanging one for the other. Nothing. How, Infyrana? As easy as me choosing a bag of M&Ms instead of a bag of skittles. I have access to both. I choose one instead of another. We are not told that we must be in possession of a bag of skittles (and give up that bag) to instead have (exchange) a bag of M&Ms. Just we are not told we must exchange one for the other, so there is no requirement of ownership of a chainsword to have a free chainaxe. I'm not sure how many more ways it can be explained. It's crystal clear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4062999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 So you're saying we can simply add chainaxes to our tacticals for free with no requirements to swap or exchange,, adding an extra attack as a result, simply because they have access to chainswords in their options? Wow, nice. I shall wait for my reply from FW to better understand their thoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4063090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Do you see any stated requirement for an exchange? Is it really so hard to believe that the Legion most known for hand to hand butchery can get an extra attack and AP4 for cheaper than other Legions on their tac squads? They are not getting anything (besides the AP4) that other Legions don't have access to, they just get it cheaper. I wouldn't put too much faith in an email. It is in no way official. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4063144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeychunks Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 I agree that RaW this seems legitimate. There is plenty of precedent for weapon swaps in other Legions that is worded differently, implying that there is a different method here. As powerful as it is, it is also limited to a single unit of a single Legion, commonly held to be weak relative to other LA rules. Fluffwise, World Eaters getting large numbers of particularly vicious Tacticals also seems very appropriate and they are arguably the most-likely Legion to have such a bonus given to them. That said, clarification wouldn't hurt. It's a significant improvement that you would expect to be explicitly confirmed somewhere, not to mention all of the official WE Tactical models that were not modelled with ultragrit. Just seems worthwhile to 100% confirm it before people start ordering those conversion packs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4063157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Why would an (unneeded) clearification change the modeling? No one is saying that it cannot happen, just disbelief that it can be done for a single Legion at no cost. If the fear of a 20-40 point change (that isn't there) stop someone from modeling a true WE, they may be playing the wrong Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4063165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Well it looks like the tactical squad is one of only two units this really makes a difference for, and I don't really mind it being a cool little buff for World Eaters. The other is the Recon squad which seems a little fishier. They come with bolters and bolt pistols, and "have access to" chainswords that they can get by swapping their bolters. But if you interpret the WE Chainaxe RAW it means they can take the chainaxe on top of their bolter and bolt pistol for free, where normally they couldn't possibly get the chainsword, bolter and bolt pistol combo at the same time. I get the impression the rule was intended to be a free "swap chainswords for chain-axes," but again I don't see too big a problem with it. Maybe if someone intentionally spammed tacticals just to take advantage of the saving and ended up with like 80 marines and a 160 point saving I might be a little salty, but then you have to grudgingly respect them for slogging through building and painting 80 white tactical marines complete with bolters, pistols and chain axes. It's kind of impressive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4063241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 80 tacs? My core army is 93 jump infantry. 60 of which have chain axes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4063454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Legion Assault Squads get chainswords as part of their existing wargear without buying or exchanging them etc, so there's no issue there in having axes instead. hisdudeness, you are pretty hardline and absolute in your reasoning that it does not need clarification considering that there are several others who read it in a different way. I actually fully understand which direction you are coming from and can see that it could be seen that way, just as I said it is possible to be read both ways depending on how hardline you want to be about your stand point. From a WE fluff standpoint, I don't see why not either and think it's totally fluffy and would be happy either way. As a sad-panda Death Guard player, I'm still wondering where all my legions fluffy 'broad trench daggers' are? But to continue from that sort of debate, I have received an e-mail from FW this evening already (though it was mixed in with a much easier question, I might reply back and clarify). Without pasting the contents and not knowing if the reply is one of their 'standard' replies, I've summarised it as follows: ...Tis a good question... certainly a head scratcher... We at FW encourage 'house rules'... tradition of rolling 4+ or follow a theme... make it ok with opponent and have fun... If at tournie... ask the referees / tournie coordinator the ruling etc... otherwise chat with friends and agree until a FAQ is issued... HTH ... PM me if you want the exact wording. TL:DR ... 'Unofficially' if you have complaints about the way the rule is interpreted, discuss with your group and find a suitable house rules or discuss with the referees before hand when going to tournies etc. End result for me personally? The person reply from FW also didn't know, therefore find a friendly group and play it whichever way suits your group - or as per the tournie. Be prepared to A) pay the price for Chainswords, or play with nice friends who let you have it for free. *edit missed a comment* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/#findComment-4063477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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