Grey Knights: Know Thy Foe

[Prot]

Hey guys,

 

We have this really cool conversation going on, BUT it's in the Psychic thread.

 

So I'm just going to grab a snippet of it here, because it's definitely worth exploring, and I wanted to respond but not take that thread too far off topic:

 

 

 

Yeah that's kinda the stupid thing about us. If we could have reasonable matchups against Tau, Necrons and Eldar, we'd be a tournament staple (we also hard-counter Nids hilariously well). As is though, we're gated out of the top places by getting shot off table by the other xenos factions. CenturionStar also works very well against us, so in that matchup we're in trouble too. 

 

It's actually pretty hard to lose to Daemons. They're behind the curve from the start, and as soon as we start casting our powers and triggering our various bonuses against Daemons, it's all downhill. We're one of the few factions who have enough psykers to keep up in the Psychic phase, we shoot them off the board, and the harder stuff (Princes, Grinders etc) we handle in melee very well. 

 

Could you link to relevant statistics for this all? I'd be very interested in it, as I view a lot of what you say here very differently:

-Tau are a reasonable matchup

-Necrons I'm not sure yet to be honest, too early to tell, one would need to go with theory and that does not make me so sure either.

-A standard GK list (using the list you propose) does not hardcounter 5 Flyrants + Mawlocks/Lictors. Why would it? It has no meaningfull AA. 60 Twin-linked S6 shots wears down that GK list of yours pretty well.

-It's not hard to lose to Daemons, Banishment and PE (Daemons) might make it look like this but... They generally have 20+ powerdice versus our ~12 (going with the GK list you suggested). One would want to cast Banishment on Screamerstar for example, but they'll have a ton of dice to try and Deny you on a 4+ (mastery lvl 3 versus your mastery lvl 2 max). Dronestar is equally dangerous and they can just summon Daemonettes endlessly which are incredibly efficient against Grey Knights. And while we have PE against them, we also pay for Ap3 in close combat and rending on our psycannons, which Daemons do not care about at all.

 

 

- TAU: Ugh. I dunno man. To be quite honest I found my match up so one sided I couldn't believe how many Terminators I was just putting back in the box. (Zhukov: did you happen to read my Tau batrep?)

 

Perhaps in a higher numbered force, but Tau I would say is VERY list dependent. If you're taking an all comers list, (IE: Not list tailoring) I think they are 'elite killers' in a lot of ways which kind of is our magic bullet.

 

- NECRONS: I play these dudes myself... quite a bit. But there is one simple answer here: Necrons don't kill particularly fast, or from a very good distance. BUT if they have a Decurion running, their lack of 'killy' is over shadowed by their ability to outlast most opponents.

 

The 'simple answer' is more an assessment after playing them with the new codex: Take away the Decurion and it's like playing against a -good- codex. Quite varied, and often specialized, but beatable. Put the Decurion back in, and leverage the 4+ RP with Canoptek Harvest and it's a different ball game.

 

I do recommend Maelstrom against them, as they are often slow, and the Decurion robs them of ObSec... quite honestly I can't tell you how many games I've had where (as a Necron player) I simply cannot clear an objective point fast enough.

 

Things I recommend against Necrons:

1: Get the miss matches fast. The army is highly specialized with few units capable of multi role dominance.

 

2: Get them separated. They do work far better as a blockade in most lists. I call it the 'space invaders' style. (remember that old 80's video game?) Even in a non-Decurion they work best in a block; Ghost Arks overlapping Ghost Arks, overlapping Warriors (repairs), overlapping IC's which will swap units for full effect. Try to pull them in different directions to dilute that strategy a bit.

 

3: Coincides with Number 2: But consider Maelstrom. It's one army that gets separation anxiety, lacks ObSec, and is a slow/steady killer which isn't the best suited for that game type (even modified Maelstrom Tournaments)

 

4: Consider an ally that messes with their range issues: Believe it or not, my Necrons have some real, and I mean REAL issues with Astra. Everyone thinks Astra is garbage, and I don't want to get into that, but the side effect of this is you don't see them often in tournaments which actually EMPOWERS the Necrontyr. I have a few guys I play against their Astra regularly, and getting to 24" is SO vital for me because if I'm not careful it's potentially game over by the time I do.... stuff that some armies laugh off is a REAL problem for 'crons vs Astra.

 

5: Air Wars: Most Necron players have moved away from Flyers in competitive lists. The days of Croissant Wing are over. The flyer is simply too expensive, and the changes to Tesla are important. Believe it or not, the 'traditional' Stormraven can be a real game changer because if you're unchallenged in the air and bring that armament against their vehicles they blow up VERY easily against that stuff.

 

6: 4 + 5 = 6. Melta. I see some opponents try to glance my Arks (they are a staple in most lists) and other vehicles.... this might be the way to face other vehicle heavy armies, but not crons. Melta is such an issue for them I can't even tell you how many times that in one shot melta is a killer to me. Obviously this is through allies, and/or Stormraven. But one pen from a melta, that isn't jinked, is usually death for me. It almost ALWAYS results in an explosion injuring guys inside too. So you get that melta through, the shields are gone for the game now. It's down to AV11 if you don't kill it, but you probably will as it always happens to me.... pen + AP1 + open topped = boom.

 

I see Blood Angel players dropping in their special flamers on Arks because they think the flamers will hurt guys inside... no, no, no... take melta. The flamed Warriors will just Repair. They don't realize the simple melta is waaay more devastating.

 

7: Use the Force! In a Decurion, you're getting them to an RP of 5, in a non-Decurion? It literally feels like you have no RP. Seriously. Only in the odd case where a guy blows his Orb, or he has the odd Cryptek will this not be the case.

 

TYRANIDS:

 

- this is a weird one for me. I play against 3 Nid players (a 4th is on and off with the nids). The tournament guy is always doing a fistfull of bloody Flyrants. It's just so gross. One is hard, after that it might as well be a 100... or that's how it feels.

 

- another guy loves to go monstrous creature heavy. Wow... I can table this guy. Seriously, he MUST protect his MC's with the small crud or he's finished. I just get into CC with his 'big nasties' and they're gone. His Heavy MC list is really good against some opponents but my GK will always be a massive battle for him, plus that list is usually trying to get off a lot of psychic stuff.

 

- Mawlocs are friggin annoying too. I think they're underrated, but again it's really an anti-marine thing isn't it? It's okay in some games, but in a biker heavy army those things are far worse to me. I think it's the combination of Flyrants AND Mawlocs that make for a very nasty issue.

 

ELDAR:

 

- These guys I'm not having much success against, so I can't add much. I think my style of list preference is killing me here. The thing about Eldar is it's not like they are one thing with a Detachment, and another without it.... they're just plain good all around. The codex is such a head scratcher for me. Too much access to D, AP2 and AP3 sprinkled in with luck based Rending... it really feels like a GK magic bullet. Not least of all is they seem to (brotherhood ability) access a lot more Psychic dice now.

 

- I honestly don't know what the hard counter is to these guys. So far, I can honestly say this is one army where I can't seem to quickly identify many 'must take' units that work against them in a tournament style setting... maybe Draigo? Just for that Wraithknight? I dunno.

 

I'd love to continue the conversation with you guys and see what you're experiencing. Keep in mind Meta means a lot in some of these armies. I'd like to hear how you guys are faring.

 

P.S.

 

I know Marines are right around the corner, and ironically it's looking to me like it will be Grav-Dex 2015 which will probably have us starting a whole new thread. lol

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Tau are our Achilles heel. Everything they do is designed to punish low model count, elite armies. They even Intercept us when we Deepstrike. And our 1-2 Ravens, if we even bring any, get rekt by Tau AA (which is geared towards fighting actual flying threats, like Nurgle Princes, Air Cav etc). The only thing keeping us in contention versus Tau is DK's and the real prospect of table wipe if we make it into melee. GW however actively discourage melee in the main rules, and have given Tau some of the best anti-melee tech and special rules in the entire game. It's not impossible to beat them, but you need your best list and a good alpha strike. If they get ahead early its very hard to catch up. 

 

Eldar are new so I don't know. I think they're gonna prove to be even more insane to fight than Tau. Firstly, melee Wraithknights are the dark horse of the codex. Everyone (including all of us) worked up a storm of nerd rage about the two D cannons..and yet we never considered just how absurd a melee WK actually is. I've seen them in action, and I kid you not they can solo entire armies. The game in question, the Eldar player lost the initative (literally, he got Seized) and had most of his force shot off-table by the IG player. However, the IG player, even with multiple lascannon teams and lots of psychic buffs+Orders, just couldn't bring down the WK. It ate whatever it touched and Stomped itself out of Conscript tarpits. T8+ 3+ armour, 5+ invul, 5+ FNP and 6 wounds is just utter insanity. Oh, and the Farseers in the Jetcouncil kept putting 'Invisibility' on it. Picture that. 

 

Secondly, I'd say Wraithflamers are problematic. They can use Allied DE to deploy in your face without scatter (GG game balance), and because GW stripped out our only Deepstrike defences ('Warp Quake' on Strikes and Interceptors, Coteaz gone), we have literally no way to stop it without Allies. Charging them? Enjoy D3 Overwatch hits per Wraithguard. At range, you really need AP3, which we simply don't have without Allies (notice a theme emerging?). 

 

Thirdly, ScatterBikes (ShurikenBikes are also quite good in their formation). S6 spam is not the best against us, but it will grind down our limited numbers, and they have the durability, mobility and damage output to win any firefight. You really have to commit DK's to hunting them down (Interceptors will just get shot to shreds sadly, including on Overwatch). Their late-game objective grabbing shenanigans with Flat Out is a huge issue as well. 

 

There is other stuff to take note of (Dragons in the Aspect Shrine formation, BS5 fusion guns...mmmmmmmmmmmm), Crimson Death being literally 'buy three Crimson Hunters please'....but yeah, Eldar still have to broken in. I expect to see their tournament performance to pick up though. They got a pretty major upgrade, and it wasn't even needed. 

 

 

Necrons lack AP3/2 at range, but honestly it doesn't matter. They're gonna win by attrition. Wraiths tie up our attempts to melee them, and they just have too many Warriors to grind through. Ironically you won't typically lose by table wipe, you'll lose on scenario. Again though, like with Tau, if you're successful with getting into melee and do so en-masse, you can wipe them out. Necrons do lack Tau's Interceptor and ranged AP2, so it's more favourable in that sense. But there is a real risk you'll be stuck in endless grindy melees that go nowhere, due to Reanimation Protocols and Overlords re-rolling 1's for their friends. 

 

 

Tyranids are annoying if they got the 4x Flyrant route. However, we wipe out their ground forces very well. If Crones didn't exist I'd see a point to the Raven, but those stupid AA Haywire larvae they shoot at vehicles is stupidly powerful. I mentioned earlier that Exorcrines can be an issue, but they won't be brought in quantities (you can handle 1-2 fairly well). 

Mawlocks get absolutely rekt in melee with us, because I3 means we got first and S6 AP3+'Force' is GG. 

[Prot]

Yea I got a lesson in that Haywire thing, and it was unexpected. You get so used to seeing a 'type' of army, then you get hit with something you just don't see everyday (at least I didn't) and it changes things.

 

Between interceptor on Tau, the new Eldar formation, and a few others, I just really can't see using the Stormraven other than fun games.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yea I got a lesson in that Haywire thing, and it was unexpected. You get so used to seeing a 'type' of army, then you get hit with something you just don't see everyday (at least I didn't) and it changes things.

 

Between interceptor on Tau, the new Eldar formation, and a few others, I just really can't see using the Stormraven other than fun games.

 

 

It's criminal how invalidated the Raven is. I mean, Throne help us. We actually get one of the best Flyers in the game, it does everything we want, it's not even overpriced...and then they promptly hand xenos all the tools to demolish it with impunity. Oh, and just to rub salt deeper into the wound, the Raven itself is our only way of dealing with enemy Flyers. So, if their AA or Flyers hard-counter our 1-2 Ravens...what is the point of even taking them?

 

More to the point, the Raven being out of the picture also means Purifiers are severely curtailed in their usage (it's Allied pods or bust basically). So that's two otherwise strong, well designed units made garbage by excessive upgrades to xenos books. I mean, it's not like Nids needed Skyfire Haywire. Could've made the grubs Armourbane or something like that. But no, lets make them on a 2+ (A 2+) rip a Hull Point off, and your only out is to Jink and hope you roll a 4+.

 

As for Eldar, the Crimson Death formation is disgusting. I mean, I thought we'd seen the ultimate expression of 'hey take these units get free buffs' in Decurion. Then Craftworld Warhost upends even the modest taxes Necrons pay, by just flat out upgrading all the Crimson Hunters to unstoppable juggernauts. Preferred Enemy: Flyer and FMC. 4+ cover save always, and re-rolls to save when Jinking. How exactly is that fair? They're unkillable unless you have both Skyfire AND Ignore Cover (doable but not by us and certainly not most non-Tau armies), oh and if they're not dealt with they're firing 4x S8 AP2 shots apiece with optional Skyfire (two of which are Lance, so high AV doesn't matter to them). 

 

 

The more I read the Eldar codex, the more I feel so ashamed of our book. We are such a colossal missed opportunity. 

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

As for Eldar, the Crimson Death formation is disgusting. I mean, I thought we'd seen the ultimate expression of 'hey take these units get free buffs' in Decurion. Then Craftworld Warhost upends even the modest taxes Necrons pay, by just flat out upgrading all the Crimson Hunters to unstoppable juggernauts. Preferred Enemy: Flyer and FMC. 4+ cover save always, and re-rolls to save when Jinking. How exactly is that fair? They're unkillable unless you have both Skyfire AND Ignore Cover (doable but not by us and certainly not most non-Tau armies), oh and if they're not dealt with they're firing 4x S8 AP2 shots apiece with optional Skyfire (two of which are Lance, so high AV doesn't matter to them). 

 

 

 

 

 

They are still paper planes and Purifiers still burn them.

 

The problem is that this is the one and only match-up where you do not want to have a Raven with Purifiers. Mobility is as usual the issue with Purifiers, the usual allied options and/or Gate will need to be considered.

[Zhukov]

Okay, let me type a lot for a change and give my view on different matters at once. Part of the challenge will be to keep this respectful en useful. I'm going to write this quick as I don't have much time, sorry for typos or incoherencies. I also don't mean anybody in particular when I speak about 'you' or whatever.

 

NSF versus CAD

 

A lot of difference in views comes forth from this I think. I noticed to my surprise over the last weeks that almost everybody seems to play with NSF instead of CAD. This almost matters everything and is deciding in why we hold such different views regarding matters like Tau and Necrons.

 

Basicly: When you play Grey Knights as I think some of you do, with mostly NSF (including often) Aegis Defense Line, then I can fully imagine you suffer against Tau and Necrons! There is a reason I don't play with NSF and why Grey Knights don't do well generally on tournaments (besides heavily relying on Allies in combination with Draigo/Libby).

 

Personally, I don't see the point of playing with (a lot of) Terminators if they are not Objective Secured (OS). They are quite terrible without it in my opinion. You lose every kind of flexibility. You have to fully realise that when you lose Objective Secured on troops, they are no different from, for example, Elite entries. Without Objective Secured you open up your Troops to getting directly compared to every other unit in the game regarding effectiveness! 185 points for 4 stormbolters and 1 psycannon is horrible inefficient shooting, I think we can all agree on that. You have no choice but to reach CC as you cannot win matchups by virtue of OS.

 

Erm, how to state this best. Basicly OSgives you a comparative advantage in many matchups otherwise terrible. For this however to be true, I assume certain kind of (Tournament) rulespacks. I can't speak for every tournament in the world, but nowadays almost every tournament I'm aware of tends to use varied mission design, with implementing an improved version of Maelstrom and playing with objetives a lot.

 

Note: I'm not saying using a CAD for GK's suddenly makes them toptier, I can't proof either that CAD is better, it's just what I think and we do know that NSF isn't working, so it's worth exploring. In this case I trust myself in the fact that NSF for me is not an option when playing pure Grey Knights, it makes a limited army even more limited. When using Allies it gets a different story all together and the same for when you know beforehand who you are going to play.

 

Now one can say comp is stupid, that's fine, but the GW rules as written are arguably worse, so take your pick. Either way, Necrons with CAD rank just as high as Necrons using Decurion on some larger US tournament results I've seen, isn't that surprising when you see people complaining about Decurion Necrons mostly?

 

Tau

 

Onto mathcups: What are you going to do against Tau when playing Deepstriking NSF Grey Knights? You gonna deepstrike in front of them, eating interceptor fire and being in range of almost their entire army next turn? You shoot the turn you come down and do some minimal damage because our alphastrike is piss poor? Yes, then I can see losing myself hard to Tau as well, I can't win either in such cases, I'll be honest about that.

 

No, the weakness of Tau is their limited mobility and poor troops. They suffer from playing the objective game. Doesn't mean they suddenly aren't powerfull, but it gives you an edge in certain areas over them (besides the obvious fact that you can beat them in CC).

 

I won many tournament games in my life by playing like a total :cusscat. I don't care, I play to win after all. What I mean with this is that sometimes it's better to hang back and do nothing, taking a bit of fire (not much, even Broadsides are 36" range and static only!) and to go for the mission. Kill his troops and wait till the last turns to go onto objectives, to give an example. It's hard to say exactly what to do as it depends entirely on the mission and terrain, I'll try to get some games in at Tau at some point in a competitive setting, I'll make a battlereport of it then.

 

In short: With a standard kind of GK list most of you people play Tau is pretty hardmode, because you have no option but to rush him and hope you have enough left to kill him in CC. Is it better with a CAD list? Yes, I'm certain it is, even without having played it, based on my experience over the years against Tau with even weaker lists, but you don't have to believe me, I don't win any less because of it lol.

 

Necrons:

 

Same deal, you have almost no comparactive advantage against Necrons if you deepstrike most of your army (non OS) in front of their army. What's the point? There is none, it makes you lose horribly more often than not. Note: I'm not saying anybody here does exactly that, I don't mean any of this offensive and don't mean anybody in particular with it. I just try to show you that playing NSF with Aegis Defense Line makes you severly handicapped in the sense that you lose options regarding how to play the game and win it.

 

Playing with OS against Necrons and having everything on the board? All right, let's play. Let's see if he pushed his Wraiths forward so you can shoot them up before charging them with Dreadknights. Or maybe you both hang back and do nothing. What's the mission? Can you wait and put things in reserve to go onto objectives later in the game with OS units while he has none maybe? Etc etc.

 

Biggest advantage against Necrons are Dreadknights, 3 of them can do a lot of work against them as they don't have reliable counters for them except for Heavy Destroyers to a certain extent (they put Ap2 onto them and very reliably).

 

Tyranids:

 

Tough, 4 or 5 Flyrants murder pretty much a Dreadknight per turn. Mawlocks áre dangerous, because often you don't get to hit them in CC, they will deepstrike on top of you, hitting you with a S6 Ap2 large blast and then misshapping... more often than not going back in reserves... rinse and repeat. I have more experience against Tyranids than against any other army due to a good friend of mine being the best Nids player in the Netherlands, I played him too much and this matchups aint that great on a high level with all-comers lists.

 

Other type of lists? Those suddenly turn really into our favour as their ground forces get kinda demolished by GK's, they have issues stopping Incinerators and Dreadknights.

 

Eldar

 

No experience with the new codex, but I played a lot of Eldar myself in the past and am very capable of reading a codex, so take from this what you want: Sorry, nothing different here, this is horrible, especially with unmodified Strenght D. We cannot handle Wraithknights well at all (especially not the CC version) and Warp Spiders are capable of killing our entire army lol. Jetbikes murder Rhinos, Strikes and Terminators as well. There is literally nothing positive about this mathcup, I don't believe we hold any edge against them, except for Dreadknights being able to alphastrike Bikes with shooting if they start on the board. (slightly bigger range with the Shunt move included)

 

I don't really believe in Stormravens personally (Although I own 2), but they are actually good in this matchup in general (equip them with Hurricane Bolters as well), unless you play against multiple Crimson Hunters which would make it harder. I don't tailor for particular matchups though (unless it improves chances of winning at tournaments ofc), but for the people who want to have a better chance against Eldar Stormravens are definitely worth considering!

[Prot]

Okay, let me type a lot for a change and give my view on different matters at once. Part of the challenge will be to keep this respectful en useful. I'm going to write this quick as I don't have much time, sorry for typos or incoherencies. I also don't mean anybody in particular when I speak about 'you' or whatever.

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing some of your experiences against these opponents. I appreciate that you're prefacing this with an honest appraisal of what you view as some top strategy.... We don't have to agree to get along. We're all fighting for the big "E" right? ;)

 

 

NSF versus CAD

 

A lot of difference in views comes forth from this I think. I noticed to my surprise over the last weeks that almost everybody seems to play with NSF instead of CAD. This almost matters everything and is deciding in why we hold such different views regarding matters like Tau and Necrons.

 

 

 

Note: I'm not saying using a CAD for GK's suddenly makes them toptier, I can't proof either that CAD is better, it's just what I think and we do know that NSF isn't working, so it's worth exploring. In this case I trust myself in the fact that NSF for me is not an option when playing pure Grey Knights, it makes a limited army even more limited. When using Allies it gets a different story all together and the same for when you know beforehand who you are going to play.

 

 

 

 

+++ I'm not going to quote your whole statement on CAD because quite frankly I agree with 98.4987% of it! 

 

The reality is, I play NSF once in a while because... it's fun. IF on the other hand you told me, "Prot you're going to a tournament where every loss means you are going to have a finger chopped off and you have to choose CAD or NSF right now."

 

Well I'm going to choose CAD every time. I can only speak for here, but the reality is the reason I always play Maelstrom (modified) unless someone wants to try a campaign or something different, is because ALL the tournaments here, that I am aware of (in North America) use some form of Maelstrom. 

 

You have to have a phenomenal bonus from your Detachment to actually give you a REALLY good reason to forfeit it. And Emperor knows I've tried it. It's nearly impossible to win because as you say, you are always, always, always having to destroy your opponent. In the case that he DID bring ObSec, and you did NOT... you're in double the trouble because now you cannot even -contest-. (My last game against Tau this was an issue.)

 

Outside of Grey Knights (unfortunately our Detachment is dated) other do have some detachments that include ObSec, or they use Dataslates to 'augment' a CAD. (IE: Helbrute formations for an example)

 

+++ It is a very good point that reminds me of why I do 'okay' with Belial or Azrael in some matchups... simply because ObSec Termies are pretty darn cool.

 

 

Tau

 

Onto mathcups: What are you going to do against Tau when playing Deepstriking NSF Grey Knights? You gonna deepstrike in front of them, eating interceptor fire and being in range of almost their entire army next turn? You shoot the turn you come down and do some minimal damage because our alphastrike is piss poor? Yes, then I can see losing myself hard to Tau as well, I can't win either in such cases, I'll be honest about that.

 

No, the weakness of Tau is their limited mobility and poor troops. They suffer from playing the objective game. Doesn't mean they suddenly aren't powerfull, but it gives you an edge in certain areas over them (besides the obvious fact that you can beat them in CC).

 

 

 

+++ Well here's where we differ. I did ask if you read my Tau batrep in this forum. I assume no... because that's actually how I won. By risking a lot of firepower. Now to be fair, the reality is the Tau *I* just faced might be different than the Tau you face. I took on 3 Riptides (including an experimental dual AP2 flamer unit) and a Farsight Enclave bomb attached, and some other rail gun dudes/tanks at 1850.

 

I used terrain, and decided to deny a flank. I am quite sure if I did not actually deep strike right in front of him, I would have lost because he moved too quickly, and much better range than I, and my Dreadknights were only able to really shoot up his Fish Warrior squads, but were otherwise a little outmatched by his firepower.

 

By presenting him several targets at once, in focused area of the map, this was my big chance... perhaps my only chance. 

 

This guy knew very well what he was doing, and I'll confess during 2 points of the game I wish to heck I had ObSec as I could not contest a point for two turns and that was starting to become a turning point.

 

But as far as how I played him... would I change anything? Nope. Just perhaps not NSF. I don't say this to be argumentative. I say it because it is a truth. It in fact won me the game, but why? Why did it work? It's not supposed to right?

 

I think the answer is the mission and terrain, and my list called for it. I'm going to bet if you're playing it the opposite, our lists don't look too much alike! 

 

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you here. I'm just saying many factors combine to present us with a different challenge, and sometimes there is more than one answer.

 

I wish I played Tau more. I would like to try other strategies, and to be 100% honest my terminators felt like complete junk with all the  AP2 he had. I may have been better off with power armour in this game!! (not getting a 3+ save is no worse than not getting a 2+ save!)

 

Eldar I don't have a comment on. They are my bane right now.... Far too flexible, far too cheap. Any variant of the Wraithknight is just too good not to take for Eldar. The feeling I get when I see a list with even 1 Wraithknight in it is.... how on earth do they fit it in a list with that many models? Than I remember... it's undercosted.

 

You're right about Spyders too... crazy good, and hard to even shoot at. 

 

Another valid change is the ability to access more psychic dice. This is really annoying sometimes. Easily one of the bigger 'denial' opponents I face now.

 

Thanks for the strategy discussion. Lots of good stuff there, and I will consider my next approach to Tau carefully!

[Emicus]

Some very interesting and insightful discussion!

I can't chime​ in with much, but I have played the majority of my games versus Tyranids. Yes force counters the big gribblies but aside from that they have quite a few tools aside from flyrants. The dreaded Mawlock for example, if it by the grace of the Emperor doesn’t murdinate what it digs up underneath the first go with S6 AP2, it gets to do it AGAIN, and then either it has killed your unit of terminators and comes up to get shot/charged IF you have anything near, or go down again to repeat the process again and again and again. A complete bane for terminators. Best defence? Pray for scatter. Points cost? 140. 140?! And they can take acid blood for a laugh.

For tailoring against ‘nids I really do think you need to take psilencers on your Dreadknights, because otherwise you will get bogged down in endless terrible waves of gaunts spawned forth by Tervigons that you will never-ever be able to close with in melee.

Heck, 30 hormagaunts will put a dreadknight out of commission for most if not all of the game, and that is without going fancy and spending points on toxin sacs, where he might just murder you.

Perhaps that’s just my opponents though, they sure love bringing the Tyranid Wave. If it isn’t 60 gargoyles and a hundred ‘gaunts with a few big ‘uns to keep them fearless and so bubblewrapped you can barely see them it’s.. well another army.

Granted, you could tell me my positioning and targeting is out of whack but when the alternative is to try and kill a gaunt bubblewrap around a Tervigon, a gaunt bubblewrap around an Exocrine, a flanking gargoyle brood or a Flyrant, I honestly struggle to see which of them is the bigger evil.

[jeffersonian000]

On NSF vs CAD, I can understand some of the problems people are having. However, I prefer NSF over CAD in virtually every match up due to Rites granting multiple abilities that synergize with Gate, and I heavily use Gate. One thing I rarely do is reserve more than a single unit of GKT, while pretty much always starting everything else on the table. I play Shunt heavy, Gate the non-Shunters, and only T1 DS the one GKT unit that could not be Gated T1.

 

For me, being able to Battle Focus out of Gate is huge. Versus Tau, this allows me to arrive and spread out post-Interceptor when I Gate, and it allows my one GKT squad to drop near an out of way objective, and either shoot-spread out or correct for scatter-shoot. The rest of my army is Jumping or Shunting to Alpha Bomb soft targets, with securing objectives the last thing on my mind. First thing is to eliminate what my opponent needs to win, then mitigate what they can do in return. Only after that are my thoughts on objective grabbing.

 

Now, there are times when I go all in and reserve just about everything, and those rare instances are when I know my opponent will eliminate me as a threat on T1. Those instances are rare, but they happen, such as 100% Drop Pod armies going first. Deployment is a tool in my tool box, used to fix problems my other tools just aren't the right tool for.

 

Yet I still take a "CAD" list, with two Troops and an HQ, two Fast and two Heavies, and a LoW. If it's beneficial for me to give up Rites for ObSec, then I'm not unopposed to going CAD. CAD is another tool, after all. For me CAD is good versus immobile/static opponents, netting me an advantage via their camping. Ie, if they are going to throw away the opportunity to win, might as well rub it in.

 

On Tau, my focus is on killing Marker Lights with my Shunt units while peeling off threats with Draigo's taxi service. Yes, Tau has too much AP2. You defeat AP with cover, spreading out, and denying shots. Rites let's you spread out, or dash for cover, or correct for a bad scatter. Denying shots is where you place your units to encourage blasts to drift onto your opponent's other units, or by denying line of sight, etc.. Yes, Tau have units that can ignore LoS, but those units are also susceptible to bullying by Jump Monstrous Creatures.

 

On Nids, I've alway struggle to kill enough of them to not lose old missions, which is how I've come to love the Maelstrom. GW wrote your codex, but Maelstrom makes them equal. Versus Nids, CAD might seem like the better option over NSF, as you can contest and secure. However, the mobility of Rites coupled with Gate and Shunt cannot be denied, and does give us an upper hand in dealing with the bug. Flame, Cleansing or Incinerator, are great for dealing with the bug, while Psilencers are actually useful. Just need to pay attention to Shadows in the Warp, kill the synaps first if you can, drop vortex on them if you can't.

 

Orks are a fun lot to face off against, because they are as much of a blight as the Nids. They can't be bullied, can't be killed off fast enough, and will overrun you while stealing your objectives. So I spread out, let them multi-charge me, and grab objectives with my GKIS while tying up the mob as best as can be. Smart Ork players will attempt to not get it suck in, which is what you want, as it let's you stay mobile. The goal is to kill them off at range or lock them down in melee with your TDA, and let Draigo sort them out. Apply NDK as needed.

 

Eldar are an interesting match up. Deldar are one of the few armies I recommend crippling over eliminating, as they become very weak very fast when you rob them of momentum. Flame their open-top transports, shoot up their units, bleed them of models, then finish them off. Celdar are the new badness, and I have yet to actually play them, so I'll reserve judgement. My thoughts are that you cannot treat them as a sine codex but as a dozen strategically different armies in one book, which makes general tactics difficult to discuss. Going to have to sideline them for now. On Harlies, though, they seem like crappy Deldar to me, and die just as easily.

 

The Cron are interesting in that we actually should not have too many issues with them as they are slow, short ranged, and die just like Marines .... undead Marines that just won't stay down. As always, play to the mission, embrace the Maelstrom, and "Force" them to die.

 

SJ

[Emicus]

We can’t use Run and Shoot after gating, can we? It says in the book that it can be used by a unit that arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but when gating you are never in Deep Strike Reserve, you only arrive as IF you were deep striking, but there is never any reserving going on.

At least that is what my club has led me to believe… I’d love to be corrected on this, preferably with something hard I can later use to smack them with when they contest me.

And incidentally how does that then work with Coteazs' I've  Been Expecting You or models with Interceptor? Since they were never in reserve, you can't be hit.. I'm not sure we can get it both ways :(

[Aethernitas]

At least that is what my club has led me to believe… I’d love to be corrected on this, preferably with something hard I can later use to smack them with when they contest me.

 

You club is perfectly right. Interceptor, Cotaez as well as the NSF run & shoot don't work on gating units as they are all tied to units entering from reserve.

[SyNidus]

We can’t use Run and Shoot after gating, can we? It says in the book that it can be used by a unit that arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but when gating you are never in Deep Strike Reserve, you only arrive as IF you were deep striking, but there is never any reserving going on.

At least that is what my club has led me to believe… I’d love to be corrected on this, preferably with something hard I can later use to smack them with when they contest me.

And incidentally how does that then work with Coteazs' I've  Been Expecting You or models with Interceptor? Since they were never in reserve, you can't be hit.. I'm not sure we can get it both ways :(

If you check out the USR section of the rule book, it says that deep strike is sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves. I've used that to justify that I can battle focus after gating.

 

As for the tactical discussions, Zhukov, while you provide some strong arguments, I would humbly disagree. I like the NSF because I don't need to take more than 1 squad of termies, and more often than not I've found OS to be unnecessary. I'll reply in more detail soon, but I find that GK areE more suited to killing than playing the objectives game. Indeed, I've found that I'm more able to pick up objectives when I do a lot more killing. That being said, there have been games where I needed to play to the objectives more, but even in those games, I can't freely pick up objectives until I've neutralised certain threats on the board.

[Aethernitas]

If you check out the USR section of the rule book, it says that deep strike is sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves. I've used that to justify that I can battle focus after gating.

 

Context here is super important. To quote the passage: "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

 

So here it's referring to the process of declaring which units will be kept in reserves at the beginning of the game therefore saying that a unit will "deep strike" in this context is a shortcut of saying that the unit is starting in "deep strike reserve", thats why the clarification in the brackets is even there. At least in my mind it's pretty straight forward *shrug*.

[SyNidus]

Oh shoot, I guess I can't battle focus anymore :(

[Adeptus]

You still get the run+shoot bonus if you're placed into ongoing reserves as a mishap while gating though.

 

Personally, I've found our match-ups to be dependent on the generosity of our opponents.

 

Against a friendly Tau list, we've got a good chance. Against a competitive one, we've got an uphill battle.

 

Same for Necrons, same for Eldar and Nids. It's even more pronounced against Nids because against anything other than Flyrant spam we murder them. S10, AP2 and Force on every unit in close combat just really ruins their day.

 

Daemons, well, against Daemons we're starting in such a strong position. Preferred Enemy, Daemonbane, the extra benefit from Sanctuary (what's that? Your daemonettes don't have assault grenades? That's a shame...) and Banishment all play right into our hands without us even trying.

 

EDIT: To be honest, I think competitive 40K is dead to me. The game is just such a mess with the balance between the factions being a distant memory that I'm only interested in playing friendly matches and maybe Apocalypse games. And even that falls apart when your local Eldar player decides to be cheeky and pulls out a power list for a laugh.

[Emicus]

Mm that’s what I thought in regards to Gate of Infinity, no interceptor, but sadly no running either.

Good point on being placed in on-going reserves Adeptus!

As for your comment about Tyranids, Adeptus, I would have to disagree. We only murdinate tyranids with S10, AP2, Force if we can actually touch them, and there will be a layer or three of models in the way. Perhaps the guys you play against don’t bring the horde? Could be a meta thing.

Or I could just be bad, I accept that ;p

Haven’t played new-new-necrons yet, I’m a bit afraid of their gauss weaponry being good against bloody well everything but aside from that, we kill everything in melee. Reanimations don’t matter when you sweep with…. Interceptors.. yeah. 30 shots at 12”, 20 at 24” on Arks with warriors, skimmer (jink all day, troops can still fire full BS), av13 (front and sides) until penned, pretty :cuss good for a troop transport. 235 points too, reckon they can kite some terminators to death even if it takes them a while to kill you. Deathly afraid of AP1 of course giving +3 on damage table thanks to open topped, of which we have a very limited availability.

Versus Daemons we certainly have a few tricks up our sleeves but at the same time they can bloody well out-dice us in the psychic phase, shutting down most of my crucial powers, and still getting to summon on their end. To no surprise to anyone, having 100, 200, 500 free points of models during a game really starts to add up. 1750 vs 2250 is going to be an uphill battle even with preferred enemy daemons.

I reckon every army has something wicked good, just that some armies have an innate rock to your scissor. What counters great melee armies? Great shooting armies for the most part. Great psychic? Better psychic. Small elite? Truly stupendous amounts of boots on the ground – because you just can’t kill them all!

It’s as balanced or imbalanced as you want it to be, if you are playing fluffy and the other guy isn’t, it’s not going to be a good time. If it’s gloves off, anything goes and you want a proverbial cheeseboard by taking every allies combination in the book, enjoy. However only a small portion can ever be at the top, so you’ll have a limited amount of opponents.

Dear lord I’d like a new GK codex on par with the last few xenos dexes just to see what GW can come up with to buff us. Cleansing flame on terminators to get out of hordes perhaps? ...only if you bring two squads and a librarian for a formation bonus, of course. Guess we’ll have to see where space marines land and try to take a guess from that. If their sergeants follow in eldars footsteps and become mini characters, that’ll be a big clue.

[jeffersonian000]

I disagree with the concept that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are two distinct things, when RAW tells us they are the same thing. But it's your game, too, play how you want.

 

SJ

[Adeptus]

I disagree with the concept that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are two distinct things, when RAW tells us they are the same thing. But it's your game, too, play how you want.

 

SJ

 

I disagree with your disagreement, and I think that's where we should leave that discussion ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

They are still paper planes and Purifiers still burn them.

The problem is that this is the one and only match-up where you do not want to have a Raven with Purifiers. Mobility is as usual the issue with Purifiers, the usual allied options and/or Gate will need to be considered.

Right, and how are the Purifiers going to get within 9" of said Crimson Hunters without being blown apart? A Raven. Which the Crimson Hunters kill pretty easily. See the issue?

It's not the only matchup. We just discussed Tyranids and Hive Crones. You've also got Tau MissileSides. Imperial Guard Vendettas. The new Derodeo Dreadnought for Marines (they already have the Contemptor-Mortis too). Ork Lootaz. etc etc. 7th has a lot of Skyfire now. I think the Raven has a place, but it's rapidly getting squeezed out by newer units.

The reality is, I play NSF once in a while because... it's fun. IF on the other hand you told me, "Prot you're going to a tournament where every loss means you are going to have a finger chopped off and you have to choose CAD or NSF right now."

Well I'm going to choose CAD every time. I can only speak for here, but the reality is the reason I always play Maelstrom (modified) unless someone wants to try a campaign or something different, is because ALL the tournaments here, that I am aware of (in North America) use some form of Maelstrom.

You have to have a phenomenal bonus from your Detachment to actually give you a REALLY good reason to forfeit it. And Emperor knows I've tried it. It's nearly impossible to win because as you say, you are always, always, always having to destroy your opponent. In the case that he DID bring ObSec, and you did NOT... you're in double the trouble because now you cannot even -contest-. (My last game against Tau this was an issue.)

Outside of Grey Knights (unfortunately our Detachment is dated) other do have some detachments that include ObSec, or they use Dataslates to 'augment' a CAD. (IE: Helbrute formations for an example)

Maelstrom isn't a format worth discussing competitively. It's not a popular tournament choice, and when it is even used, it's used heavily modified. That should speak volumes. I'm sure CAD probably is better in Maelstrom (it is all about camping markers and printing VP's via RNG). But even in that context, you'll be beaten on holding ground.

This is the problem for GK, and it's why Nemesis Strikeforce is such a boon. We're already an army that can't do attrition, can't hold ground, has a tiny model count and is overall slow once we deploy (our only fast non-vehicle units are Dreadknights and Interceptors, everything else is normal infantry speed). Why bother trying to be a CAD army, when we're not even good at it?

By contrast, Nemesis Strikforce does everything we could ever wish for. Turn 1 Deepstrike? Hell yes. Run+Shoot after landing? Deathwing would kill to do that. Only one Troops requirement? Dodges the issue of our Troops costing about twice what other armies do, thus freeing up points for upgrades and our heavy hitters. It's not a silver bullet to our deeper issues (the 4 Elite slots are wasted because we simply don't use them besides Purifiers, losing a Heavy and Fast slot is annoying), but it's handing us options. CAD doesn't offer much by comparison.

'Objective Secured' is a mirage. In almost any matchup you care to name, the enemy will be simply better at it, or be taking their own special detachment or formation that gives up CAD for amazing buffs (ie the formation armies like Decurion or Craftworld Warhost). The only time 'Objective Secured' actually matters is when an objective is being contested. If your unit isn't alive, or is alone on an objective, it's of no help whatsoever. And furthermore, Troops are usually the ones being sent to babysit objectives anyway, which means your bonus gets cancelled out (as does theirs, assuming they run a CAD as well of course).

I wish I played Tau more. I would like to try other strategies, and to be 100% honest my terminators felt like complete junk with all the AP2 he had. I may have been better off with power armour in this game!! (not getting a 3+ save is no worse than not getting a 2+ save!)

Even worse than not getting your armour save, is being ineffectual and getting no save at all. I know the 5+ invul is not reliable, but it will save a few from extinction. A handful of Terminators still alive is better than zero Strikes. And as we've discussed earlier, you don't even get twice as many bodies anymore, it's closer to 1/3rd more. Which is simply not enough to matter.

Eldar I don't have a comment on. They are my bane right now.... Far too flexible, far too cheap. Any variant of the Wraithknight is just too good not to take for Eldar. The feeling I get when I see a list with even 1 Wraithknight in it is.... how on earth do they fit it in a list with that many models? Than I remember... it's undercosted.

I don't think Eldar are unbeatable. I agree they're top-tier and are gonna force some meta-game shifts. I think Craftworld Warhost is the swansong of the Deathstar. Investing a tonne of points into a single unit or combo just isn't going to work against Eldar, they'll rip you to shreds anyway. It may even force people back to MSU or more infantry-focused lists, which will be interesting. I still think Eldar have glaring melee weaknesses (barring the WK and specialists of course). The issue is catching them in melee, they're just so fast and shooty now. Maybe Interceptors are the answer, I dunno.

I can't chime​ in with much, but I have played the majority of my games versus Tyranids. Yes force counters the big gribblies but aside from that they have quite a few tools aside from flyrants. The dreaded Mawlock for example, if it by the grace of the Emperor doesn’t murdinate what it digs up underneath the first go with S6 AP2, it gets to do it AGAIN, and then either it has killed your unit of terminators and comes up to get shot/charged IF you have anything near, or go down again to repeat the process again and again and again. A complete bane for terminators. Best defence? Pray for scatter. Points cost? 140. 140?! And they can take acid blood for a laugh.

That is true, Mawlocks do ruin our infantry very well. However, they're less than nothing to DK's. Tyranids don't have a good answer to DK's besides Exocrines, and they're not difficult to either avoid or slay. If you are finding Mawlocks that irritating, Ally Coteaz. He's the perfect hard-counter to that and shenanigans like Succubus+Wraithflamers+WWP.

For tailoring against ‘nids I really do think you need to take psilencers on your Dreadknights, because otherwise you will get bogged down in endless terrible waves of gaunts spawned forth by Tervigons that you will never-ever be able to close with in melee.

I disagree. Psilencers won't work because they only wound on 6's and the MC's all have 3+ armour saves. On average dice, you'll fail to break their armour save. Heavy incinerators are a much better choice, between that and your heavy psycannon blast mode, you should be able to blast a charge lane clear. DK's have supreme mobility as well, so you can hit their flanks or otherwise get around the ablative screen of Gaunts. You will easily slay any of the MC's in melee. Carve a path to that.

Heck, 30 hormagaunts will put a dreadknight out of commission for most if not all of the game, and that is without going fancy and spending points on toxin sacs, where he might just murder you.

Unlikely, unless you screw up your positioning. You have a longer threat range, and can hit them with your guns before they make charge range. Another reason why heavy incinerator is good is the D3 Overwatch you'll do automatically, which could be enough to deny them the charge, which buys you another turn to whittle them down.

Perhaps that’s just my opponents though, they sure love bringing the Tyranid Wave. If it isn’t 60 gargoyles and a hundred ‘gaunts with a few big ‘uns to keep them fearless and so bubblewrapped you can barely see them it’s.. well another army.

You should bring multiple Purifier squads if that's what you normally face. It would be a skew list but once you've BBQ'd them into oblivion, they might start bringing proper lists. Infantry skew has issues you can exploit in other ways (it's the same reason Green Tide doesn't work competitively, even though its scary in casual games).

Granted, you could tell me my positioning and targeting is out of whack but when the alternative is to try and kill a gaunt bubblewrap around a Tervigon, a gaunt bubblewrap around an Exocrine, a flanking gargoyle brood or a Flyrant, I honestly struggle to see which of them is the bigger evil.

Ignore the Flyrant, it's not a threat until it lands. Until the Purifiers turn up in their Raven Turn 2, I'd focus on getting rid of one bubblewrap at a time. The advantage here is that you can land on a flank with your entire army and focus, while the Nid player has to wheel his force and it's now screwed up his charge lanes. Once the Gaunt screen is gone, his spawnings won't be enough to cover all angles, which leaves him open to a DK or even Terminators if you're close enough. The mirage is trying to shoot all his bubblewrap at once. Being methodical and taking his MC's down one at a time is more likely to succeed. Exocrines first, then Tervigons.

EDIT: To be honest, I think competitive 40K is dead to me. The game is just such a mess with the balance between the factions being a distant memory that I'm only interested in playing friendly matches and maybe Apocalypse games. And even that falls apart when your local Eldar player decides to be cheeky and pulls out a power list for a laugh.

Fair enough. It's still important to discuss what happens competitively though, because you say, people can still bring the pain in casual games.

Haven’t played new-new-necrons yet, I’m a bit afraid of their gauss weaponry being good against bloody well everything but aside from that, we kill everything in melee. Reanimations don’t matter when you sweep with…. Interceptors.. yeah. 30 shots at 12”, 20 at 24” on Arks with warriors, skimmer (jink all day, troops can still fire full BS), av13 (front and sides) until penned, pretty good for a troop transport. 235 points too, reckon they can kite some terminators to death even if it takes them a while to kill you. Deathly afraid of AP1 of course giving +3 on damage table thanks to open topped, of which we have a very limited availability.

Their firepower relies on breaking your armour saves with sheer weight of dice (they have little ranged AP2 and only a little AP3). We're kinda built to be good at that. Also, we don't commonly field many vehicles, so gauss is largely irrelevant. Wraiths and Doomsday Arks are probably the two biggest issues outside of the super-Heavy category. That and the fact that you'll never kill all their Warriors, barring some miracle. 4+ Rez without 'Force', 5+ with 'Force' is just crazy. DK's just get swamped if they get into melee. Purifiers are helpful.

Versus Daemons we certainly have a few tricks up our sleeves but at the same time they can bloody well out-dice us in the psychic phase, shutting down most of my crucial powers, and still getting to summon on their end. To no surprise to anyone, having 100, 200, 500 free points of models during a game really starts to add up. 1750 vs 2250 is going to be an uphill battle even with preferred enemy daemons.

Which is why you need to get into melee ASAP and kill the Heralds. We're the best equipped army in the game to take on ScreamerStar and obliterate it. They do outmatch us in the psychic phase, but not by much. We normally have 10-14 warp charge, they're usually at 20-30. It's still a gap, but we can throw enough dice at a dispel to stop a key Conjuration or Blessing. Not all of them, but enough to matter.

Dear lord I’d like a new GK codex on par with the last few xenos dexes just to see what GW can come up with to buff us. Cleansing flame on terminators to get out of hordes perhaps? ...only if you bring two squads and a librarian for a formation bonus, of course. Guess we’ll have to see where space marines land and try to take a guess from that. If their sergeants follow in eldars footsteps and become mini characters, that’ll be a big clue.

We're a 7th edition army. We're not being touched till 8th edition, if even then.

[jeffersonian000]

Thankfully, we'll be seeing 8th at the end of this year, and our new codex shortly after that. Got to love GW and there retarded release schedule (being ironic).

 

SJ

[SyNidus]

I agree with RD's ideas. Broadly speaking, we have an uphill battle against most competitive armies, but they aren't something beyond our ability to beat. The only one I haven't been able to beat thus far is Necrons and that is partly because I just haven't had enough practice against them. I'm still trying to figure out the keys to this, as it were.

 

Eldar are pretty doable actually, they're fragile enough once you get in close. The tricky part is cornering them and this takes a lil foresight. If you can visualise their movement ranges, you can use the physical dimensions of the board to corner them and beat them down. I've done this in all my games against the new Eldar and I've only lost when I was not aggressive enough.

 

Against Nids I haven't had the change to face them yet. Likewise with Tau.

 

Daemons and Daemonkin are a much better match up and being able to unleash our full potential is pretty liberating actually.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

They are still paper planes and Purifiers still burn them.

 

The problem is that this is the one and only match-up where you do not want to have a Raven with Purifiers. Mobility is as usual the issue with Purifiers, the usual allied options and/or Gate will need to be considered.

 

Right, and how are the Purifiers going to get within 9" of said Crimson Hunters without being blown apart? A Raven. Which the Crimson Hunters kill pretty easily. See the issue?

 

 

 

 

The in-codex answer is Gate, we are a psyker army after all.

[Prot]

I agree with RD's ideas. Broadly speaking, we have an uphill battle against most competitive armies, but they aren't something beyond our ability to beat. The only one I haven't been able to beat thus far is Necrons and that is partly because I just haven't had enough practice against them. I'm still trying to figure out the keys to this, as it were.

 

Eldar are pretty doable actually, they're fragile enough once you get in close. The tricky part is cornering them and this takes a lil foresight. If you can visualise their movement ranges, you can use the physical dimensions of the board to corner them and beat them down. I've done this in all my games against the new Eldar and I've only lost when I was not aggressive enough.

 

Against Nids I haven't had the change to face them yet. Likewise with Tau.

 

Daemons and Daemonkin are a much better match up and being able to unleash our full potential is pretty liberating actually.

 

See this is why I say we have to be respectful of each other. I would never say anything like "Maelstrom is a terrible example because no tournaments use it." Because they do... here. And any game that requires a form of holding something does indeed benefit heavily from ObSec. But I respect this is of no consequence to you, in... Australia?

 

Now taking your statement into account, Eldar are a big problem for me. Perhaps more than any army you just mentioned that YOU have trouble with. They are annihilating me if I get close, and they can effectively shut down enough of my Psychic phase that I'm rolling too many dice, and not getting enough off.  The other half of the problem is that their access to low AP, and run and gun tactics is very reminiscent of Tau except with a heavy sprinkle of "D"..... ouch.

 

Here's another example:

 

I played Tau last night, but I was using Necrons. I say this to be honest, but it is relevant, because to be quite blunt about it, I was wondering through the whole game: How the heck could I beat this with my Grey Knights, without trying to box him in, and assault him? Yet it appears Zhukov prefers the opposite.... 

 

The Tau guy had 4 Riptides. I can't 'stay back' and own the table on that stuff. 2 of them hop 24" (at least 20" but I think he could have went 24") and drops dual AP 2 Strength 8(?) templates... Torrent 6". That's a long effective range to 'stay back from'. Then the bloody things are hopping back 2D6 back.

 

The other 2 Riptides, well one was shooting this ridiculous large Template. I think the range was.. 70"? It was very far anyway, and because my models were "Bulky" the 3 of them took 16 hits from 4 templates!!! AP 2.... Gees.. how the heck am I supposed to 'stay back' from that? The other Riptide was 60" with interceptor.... and to quite honest this reminded me a lot of my Batrep'd Grey Knight vs Tau game I reported here.  You can't hide from that stuff and have any effective chance of winning. 

 

So in my case? There's just no way I would agree to sitting back against a Tau army like that... never... I'd be better off not unpacking my stuff, even in Maelstrom since he was able to take half the table when needed, and back it up with a Shadow Sun that leapt 3D6 backwards, but was full of melta and plasma. 

 

For me right now, enemy number one is not always obvious but as we speak, it's Eldar. Between the Wraithknight, D-Cannon 'Bubble' of Artillery, and dodgy stuff like Spyders at BS 5, and 'filament' rules... plus the Guardian bubbles which are just fodder, but will never break... wow.  The BS 5 Reapers are no joke either really.

 

Plus my new favorite thing I'm seeing is the Psychic power that is feeding wounds back to the Wraithknight. 

 

What bothers me most about these match ups is the plethora of AP3 and AP2. It's just so ridiculously abundant right now I have trouble understanding it being handed out like candy. Against the Tau or the Eldar guy it feels like I rarely get "normal" saves anymore. 

 

Honestly when I face that sort of stuff if feels like just playing a bunch of strikes in rhino's is something I'm thinking of trying. Seriously. I mean I can either pack up a bunch of Terminators that never got a save or a handful of Strikes that never got a save. It's really a defeating feeling right now...

 

And of course what's next....? We got what looks to be "Grav-Dex" AKA Codex Astartes. We now know the Devestators are getting Grav-Cannons with Omni-scopes. I can bet it will be on vehicles too, and who knows what else.

 

This is why I started the thread on why I think 'Terminators should be Wraiths' because my Wraiths may spend half a game trying to kill something, but they get saves, and re-saves... almost every time (except against Eldar).

 

But coming full circle, the very units that are gold against something like Orks and Nids, I'm finding locally, that a lot of (not all) are just fodder for Eldar and Tau lately.

 

So this is why I'm actually "experimenting" (note I say experimenting so don't burn me at the stake here) with Strikes.... just for bodies, and ObSec rhinos. 

 

What I would do for drop pods though... man what a game changer that would be for me.

[Zhukov]

For me, being able to Battle Focus out of Gate is huge. Versus Tau, this allows me to arrive and spread out post-Interceptor when I Gate, and it allows my one GKT squad to drop near an out of way objective, and either shoot-spread out or correct for scatter-shoot.

If it's beneficial for me to give up Rites for ObSec, then I'm not unopposed to going CAD. CAD is another tool, after all. For me CAD is good versus immobile/static opponents, netting me an advantage via their camping.

1. For me Riting after Gate is ambigious at best, downright illegal and cheating at worst and thus I choose not to use it. (I assume this has been discussed to death, but if wanted I'm willing to argue it in a seperate thread) I can't rely on it being accepted in tournaments either and am not willing to go through the trouble for it.

2. I don't ever prepare for specific oppenents by tailoring my list so I can only make 1 general choice. I can imagine NSF being better in several cases, especially when using your rules interpretation for Gating and Rites.

 

As for the tactical discussions, Zhukov, while you provide some strong arguments, I would humbly disagree. I like the NSF because I don't need to take more than 1 squad of termies, and more often than not I've found OS to be unnecessary. I'll reply in more detail soon, but I find that GK areE more suited to killing than playing the objectives game.

 

No problem, I expect people to disagree! In matchups where it's beneficial to play the killing game, I play that game. I play to win and the game itself dictates in what way I will try to achieve that. I can fully imagine rushing Tau in some cases, it all depends. In my post I laid out reasons to why playing with a CAD to me is better to win (tournament) games and gave some rough examples of it, but that doesn't mean you can't play offensively with a CAD!

 

 

Maelstrom isn't a format worth discussing competitively. It's not a popular tournament choice, and when it is even used, it's used heavily modified. That should speak volumes. I'm sure CAD probably is better in Maelstrom (it is all about camping markers and printing VP's via RNG). But even in that context, you'll be beaten on holding ground. 

When some of the most influencial tournaments/tournament organization in the world use it (The ITC in the USA, the ETC in Europe, often in a modified form), then it's hard to argue that it is not even worth discussing don't you think? Either way it is nice of you to admit that using a CAD is probably better in a lot of tournaments, saves us some arguing!

 

This is the problem for GK, and it's why Nemesis Strikeforce is such a boon.

 CAD doesn't offer much by comparison.

I find the option of deepstriking turn 1 (+ running and shooting) not much of a boon, as I find the tactic of deploying by deepstrike without an efficient way to reduce the involved risks a very poor tactic in itself.

A CAD offers an important 3rd Heavy Support slot along with OS.

 

'Objective Secured' is a mirage. In almost any matchup you care to name, the enemy will be simply better at it, or be taking their own special detachment or formation that gives up CAD for amazing buffs (ie the formation armies like Decurion or Craftworld Warhost). The only time 'Objective Secured' actually matters is when an objective is being contested. If your unit isn't alive, or is alone on an objective, it's of no help whatsoever. And furthermore, Troops are usually the ones being sent to babysit objectives anyway, which means your bonus gets cancelled out (as does theirs, assuming they run a CAD as well of course).

Your reasoning is a bit messy here I feel. Being OS is just a part of the whole game. 60 Tactical Marines in Drop Pods are arguably better at it than GK one would say right? Well, we  might be better in killing in that game or at something else. Being worse in fielding a CAD than other armies is not a reason to not run a CAD. Heck, we might not be the best in anything worthwhile in the game compared to other armies, but that is irrelevant. The point is to be better at something compared to an oppenent in an actual game and then try to exploit that.

 

Their bonus getting canceled out, while it otherwise would not have been, is a good thing, while you bring it as a bad thing ('anyway').

 

I think there isn't much more to say about the subject either (from my side at least). I think in the end this is undeniable true: Some games will be won because of running a CAD. Some games will be won because of running a NSF. It's up to each individual to decide and believe which wins more games (if his interest is winning). We cannot proof in a definite matter what is better, which is part of the beauty of this game I find.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Thankfully, we'll be seeing 8th at the end of this year, and our new codex shortly after that. Got to love GW and there retarded release schedule (being ironic).

 

That soon? Damn. I don't think we will be touched for a while in any case. Probably at the end of 8th, like normal for us. 

I agree with RD's ideas. Broadly speaking, we have an uphill battle against most competitive armies, but they aren't something beyond our ability to beat. The only one I haven't been able to beat thus far is Necrons and that is partly because I just haven't had enough practice against them. I'm still trying to figure out the keys to this, as it were.

 

Necrons are extremely annoying, but they are vulnerable in melee. I'd mainly just focus on making one Warrior blob dead at a time. Like with Tyranids, you will lose via attrition if you split up your firepower. Land on a flank with as much of your army as possible, vape a unit, rinse repeat. If you leave survivors, you risk Ghost Arks making more Warriors, or Rez rolls tying you down killing off remnants. And obviously, turn on 'Force' and 'Hammerhand' to maximise your damage output and minimise their Rez. Beyond that...it's tough but they have issues with 2+ saves thankfully, so you're not vaped off table like with Tau or Eldar. That's good at least. 

The in-codex answer is Gate, we are a psyker army after all.

 

Not really. Firstly, you need to roll it on your Librarian (which may not happen, even with Liber and Mastery 3). That or Draigo, which is a very expensive solution (Raven is cheaper and has other uses besides being a transport). Secondly, you still risk going back into Reserves on a Mishap, or scattering out of range (it's still unclear if 'Rites' can be used, so you may not be able to Run back into range). An Allied drop pod would be ideal, but as far as in-codex goes, Raven is the way to go IMO. It has it's own risks, but it's flexible and powerful in other ways (like being our only viable anti-Flying Things platform, Assault Ramp, anti-tank guns etc). 

See this is why I say we have to be respectful of each other. I would never say anything like "Maelstrom is a terrible example because no tournaments use it." Because they do... here. And any game that requires a form of holding something does indeed benefit heavily from ObSec. But I respect this is of no consequence to you, in... Australia?

 

I didn't say no tournaments. I said when it is used, it's used heavily modified and often in conjunction with Eternal War missions (sometimes it's hybridized with them). If Maelstrom is actually becoming more popular, I can only laugh. The comp scene is already dying, this isn't the way to encourage new players to join in. And yeah, in Oz, I'm already completely disinterested due to our ludicrous comp we indulge in. Seperate issue. But if Maelstrom becomes popular in my backyard, I predict the scene is going to suffer even more. I could be wrong of course. Maybe MSU will come back, or infantry heavy will be the new meta. I'd probably wait till end of year before making any solid conclusions on that front. Eldar still have to impact fully, and Necrons too somewhat. Plus we have Marines soon, and I hear Tau after that. 

Now taking your statement into account, Eldar are a big problem for me. Perhaps more than any army you just mentioned that YOU have trouble with. They are annihilating me if I get close, and they can effectively shut down enough of my Psychic phase that I'm rolling too many dice, and not getting enough off.  The other half of the problem is that their access to low AP, and run and gun tactics is very reminiscent of Tau except with a heavy sprinkle of "D"..... ouch.

 

It's not just the Destroyer proliferation. I think people get too fixated on that. Yes, it's a balance issue, and GW are flat out retarded giving Eldar so much 'lol super instant death noob' guns that just invalidate otherwise great units. But there are deeper issues Eldar introduce too. How do you deal with ScatterBikes? New Jetcouncil? Wraithknights? BS5 Fire Dragons? Wraithflamers+WWP shenanigans? It's not just their guns. It's their deployment options and mobility to place all that dakka exactly where they want it. Warp Spiders are another example of 'gotta go fast' taken too far. 

I played Tau last night, but I was using Necrons. I say this to be honest, but it is relevant, because to be quite blunt about it, I was wondering through the whole game: How the heck could I beat this with my Grey Knights, without trying to box him in, and assault him? Yet it appears Zhukov prefers the opposite.... 

 

The Tau guy had 4 Riptides. I can't 'stay back' and own the table on that stuff. 2 of them hop 24" (at least 20" but I think he could have went 24") and drops dual AP 2 Strength 8(?) templates... Torrent 6". That's a long effective range to 'stay back from'. Then the bloody things are hopping back 2D6 back.

 

The other 2 Riptides, well one was shooting this ridiculous large Template. I think the range was.. 70"? It was very far anyway, and because my models were "Bulky" the 3 of them took 16 hits from 4 templates!!! AP 2.... Gees.. how the heck am I supposed to 'stay back' from that? The other Riptide was 60" with interceptor.... and to quite honest this reminded me a lot of my Batrep'd Grey Knight vs Tau game I reported here.  You can't hide from that stuff and have any effective chance of winning. 

 

So in my case? There's just no way I would agree to sitting back against a Tau army like that... never... I'd be better off not unpacking my stuff, even in Maelstrom since he was able to take half the table when needed, and back it up with a Shadow Sun that leapt 3D6 backwards, but was full of melta and plasma. 

 

Tau can still shut down other armies like few others. Especially with the Forge World variant Tides. The AP2 flamer one is pretty obnoxious in FA, but the Heavy Support 'lol you're Bulky get rekt noob' one is even more absurd. There isn't an answer to found, other than 'I brought six Dreadknights, eat greatsword xenos'. You have to skew to beat their absurd skew. And even then, as you say, they can kill DK's with Crisis anyway, so you may not win, even by bringing cheese. It's dumb. 

For me right now, enemy number one is not always obvious but as we speak, it's Eldar. Between the Wraithknight, D-Cannon 'Bubble' of Artillery, and dodgy stuff like Spyders at BS 5, and 'filament' rules... plus the Guardian bubbles which are just fodder, but will never break... wow.  The BS 5 Reapers are no joke either really.

 

Plus my new favorite thing I'm seeing is the Psychic power that is feeding wounds back to the Wraithknight. 

 

What bothers me most about these match ups is the plethora of AP3 and AP2. It's just so ridiculously abundant right now I have trouble understanding it being handed out like candy. Against the Tau or the Eldar guy it feels like I rarely get "normal" saves anymore. 

 

You can thank GW for that one. They wanted the new 'monster for every faction' kits to sell, and sell hard. Hence they pumped their rules into OP. 

 

It's Marine hate edition. The new vanilla Marine book is a big test for GW. Have they learned anything? Will Marines get tech, or a price reduction? Will GW just shift a few units around, slap some new relics in and call it day? Who knows. My money is on 'Nerftown'. As for Tau, I expect Tides will get toned down a little (hopefully). Dunno about anything else, maybe some markerlight changes if GW are at all connected to reality (again, huge call). 

Honestly when I face that sort of stuff if feels like just playing a bunch of strikes in rhino's is something I'm thinking of trying. Seriously. I mean I can either pack up a bunch of Terminators that never got a save or a handful of Strikes that never got a save. It's really a defeating feeling right now...

 

And of course what's next....? We got what looks to be "Grav-Dex" AKA Codex Astartes. We now know the Devestators are getting Grav-Cannons with Omni-scopes. I can bet it will be on vehicles too, and who knows what else.

 

Exactly. Taking Strikes is no different, except you're actually even less likely to comeback in a bad matchup. Termies will get vaped, but thats why you bring multiples. Or you give up and spam DK's. It sucks, but at least we have DK spam as an option. Some armies are just hung out to dry with no way out. 

 

Marine getting Grav-Devastators might actually make that unit relevant for the first time since...4th? That would be cool actually. But we'll see how it all shakes out. I bet GW overprices the hell out of the unit and the guns. Par for course. Marines pay exorbitant prices to be either the same or worse than xenos at the same things. 

 

This is why I started the thread on why I think 'Terminators should be Wraiths' because my Wraiths may spend half a game trying to kill something, but they get saves, and re-saves... almost every time (except against Eldar).

 

But coming full circle, the very units that are gold against something like Orks and Nids, I'm finding locally, that a lot of (not all) are just fodder for Eldar and Tau lately.

 

So this is why I'm actually "experimenting" (note I say experimenting so don't burn me at the stake here) with Strikes.... just for bodies, and ObSec rhinos. 

 

What I would do for drop pods though... man what a game changer that would be for me.

 

 

I think if Wraiths couldn't get Rez rolls, they'd be fine. Strong, a little OP for terrible armies, but without Rez they'd be basically just TWC without thunderhammers as an option. TWC aren't broken necessarily, it's when you put a Wolf Lord out front tanking damage and put hidden fists/hammers in the back row that it gets absurd. Same for Wraiths. If Decurion didn't exist, Necrons would be a lot less obnoxious in general. 

 

The thing is, lets follow through on Strike mech. Okay, so you're paying 160pts or so per squad (thats squad+psycannon+Rhino btw, no melee upgrades or anything else). So, not exactly cheap, but anyway. You take...4-6 of such squads, lets say in a CAD. Now, how do they actually perform? Well, they can't shoot very effectively, unless you stand still. Which defeats the purpose of mechanising...yay Salvo rules. Anyway, you spread out and put Strikes on objectives. You're asking your opponents to cause 3 Hull Points of damage to an AV11 target, then kill 5x MeQ's in cover. The game has 5 turns at least, up to 6 or 7 depending on what you roll for game length. That's acres of time to kill off each Strike squad and their ride. Even for a balanced army like Orks, or Sisters, or IG etc, that's not a tall order. And if you deviate from your plan of 'spread out and hold ground', you're automatically worse than the alternatives. 

 

Personally, if you wanna break out of the TDA or DK spam mould, I'd take Allied drop pods and bring a tonne of Purifiers. 'Cleansing Flame' stacked multiple times will clear the field of anything AV10, or anything not in 2+ armour or having multiple wounds. After which, you should have clear charge lanes to said harder targets. The usual 1 in 5 hammer ratio should be enough to ensure a dead MC/tank per charge. Of course, Purifiers are still only MeQ's as well. But they're not substantially more expensive (midway between Strike and Terminator price), and their alpha strike is huge against infantry and light vehicles. It's not going to be especially effective against Tau or Eldar, but it's got game against Nids, IG, Necrons and Daemons. Something to consider.