Grey Knights: Know Thy Foe

[SyNidus]

Malaysia actually, and my meta plays maelstrom almost exclusively. I've never found any real use from ObSec. We don't have the numbers or staying power to play the kind of defensive game that Zhukov suggests. What we do have is a good amount of shots which we can level at just about anything. We also have tactical flexibility in regards to the deployment choices and choice of psychic powers, to me this means that we have to play aggressive and we have to be advancing onto objectives rather than holding them. This is where our nemesis weapons come into play, so I would say we're better at destabilising the opponent's army and seizing.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

^pretty much that. We're like DE in a lot of ways. We're a spoiler army that steamrolls your opponents battleplan with it's own (land in your face, shoot you, threaten a Turn 2 charge unless you murder everything). Unlike DE however, we're a melee army with decent shooting. We're also the Daemon hard-counter, and we put a brake on Tyranids (in theory, in practise we don't even reach the top tables because of Tau and Eldar). If GW didn't hate melee combat with such insane passion and leave us with zero Deepstrike support, we'd probably perform a lot better. Also if they stopped handing out AP3 and AP2 like candy, that would boost our standing too. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

I assume this has been discussed to death, but if wanted I'm willing to argue it in a seperate thread

 

Done to death.

 

I don't think anyone wants to revisit it. ;)

[Zhukov]

Done to death.

I don't think anyone wants to revisit it.

Yeah I figured lol. Cool.

I've never found any real use from ObSec. We don't have the numbers or staying power to play the kind of defensive game that Zhukov suggests. We also have tactical flexibility in regards to the deployment choices and choice of psychic powers, to me this means that we have to play aggressive and we have to be advancing onto objectives rather than holding them.

To me tactical flexibility means you do not have to play any particular kind of style all the time. The words 'tactical flexibility' and 'have to' are to me a weird combination in the first place.

I will say it directly to you again, as you seem to have missed it the first time: I do not suggest to play a kind of defensive game all the time. I suggest you do what is best for the particular game and I find that a CAD gives you better options to do that compared to SNF. Sometimes I will play defensively, yes. Other times I will shunt forward all 3 Dreadknights and turboboost all 4 rhinos and run or deepstrike the terminators and Libby forward.

If you want to commit to 1 particular style yourself then that is fine, but do not attempt to put that on me as well please,it is not what I suggest nor what I do.

The thing is, lets follow through on Strike mech. Okay, so you're paying 160pts or so per squad (thats squad+psycannon+Rhino btw, no melee upgrades or anything else). So, not exactly cheap, but anyway. You take...4-6 of such squads, lets say in a CAD. Now, how do they actually perform? Well, they can't shoot very effectively, unless you stand still. Which defeats the purpose of mechanising...yay Salvo rules.

I am glad you took the time to write this, as it makes perfectly clear that you do not understand how such an army works nor how to play it well. Which is no problem at all, we are all here to learn after all, although it makes me wonder why you have such a set view on its effectiveness.

Standing still to shoot with the psycannon does not defeat the purpose of mechanising, because it implies that the purpose of mechanising is to move and shoot with the Strike squad their psycannon every turn. This implication is quite simply false, because that is not the purpose of Mechanising.

What is the purpose of mechanising? It does not have a single purpose and it depends on the situation which one you use. A not exhaustive list of reasons as to why I like it:

-A layer of defense for your infantry; Rhinos can in a way function like mini Void Shields. After they get destroyed they more often than not leave behind a wreck, after which you can a lot of times hide your infantry, which prevents the oppenent often from being able to shoot them at all!

-A second purpose is to have the option of covering 18 inch with your strike squads. This can be done to either rush towards the enemy or to move into a good firing position.

-Another purpose is to have cheap and mobile movement blockers. A rhino can sometimes prevent opposing units from going somewhere, which can be incredibly strong. Coupled with the above one could say that a Rhino helps winning or dictating the movement phase in many cases.

-A rhino in itself can in the end at least be seen as a 35 points model with roughly 3 Wounds with Toughnes 7, being able to move 18 inch and having the Objective Secured rule. This in itself makes the Rhino worth it for me. Yes it will get destroyed more often than not, but that is not exactly a bad thing considering his defensive stats are really good for it's cost.

The purpose in the end of playing mechanised Grey Knights is to increase your chances of winning by virtue of giving the army more options to win the game against a wide variety of oppenents in a competitive setting. It does this by sheer reliability and tactical flexibility, not by raw strenght. In simpler terms: The purpose is to increase your chances of winning or at the least provide another style of play which is reasonably effective.

A psycannon on a Grey Knight still functions largely the same as an Assault cannon with Strenght 7 on a regular marine. Except they do not have that option. It is still one of the best multi purpose regular infantry weapon in the game in my opinion. People just hate on it because it was much stronger before. Yes, it is has been heavily nerfed, but this does not mean the weapon is bad in itself.

Anyway, you spread out and put Strikes on objectives. You're asking your opponents to cause 3 Hull Points of damage to an AV11 target, then kill 5x MeQ's in cover. The game has 5 turns at least, up to 6 or 7 depending on what you roll for game length. That's acres of time to kill off each Strike squad and their ride. Even for a balanced army like Orks, or Sisters, or IG etc, that's not a tall order. And if you deviate from your plan of 'spread out and hold ground', you're automatically worse than the alternatives.

I do not understand why you insist on playing in 1 particular kind of style no matter what. It is even worse to not only do that, but then imply that somebody should not deviate from it and then giving a fallacious reason for it. Do you not go on vacation either because you own a house?

Just because a CAD does not give you an advantage each and every game does not mean it never gives you an advantage.

Has it ever occured to you to adjust your playstyle depending on the army you face? Maybe a stupid question to ask as the evidence points towards no, but I want to be sure. It can be very rewarding in any case, if you want to take my word for it.

I am sorry in any case for suggesting an alternative style of play for pure Grey Knights and arguing that it is reasonably effective. I understand that the notion of having multiple effective playstyles at our disposal is utterly terrifying. The need of yours to attack its validity based on false notions of how it is supposed to be played is therefore completely understandable. My bad!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

One thing I've been considering since Eldar dropped is an Interceptor-heavy build. Like with a DK spam build, this is a case where CAD is relevant as the bonuses from NSF aren't. I just don't see Terminators or Purifiers catching ScatterBikes or Jetcouncil in a timely fashion. Interceptors aren't especially expensive either, a basic combat squad is only 150 points or so depending on upgrades. Having a mostly fast force frees up the DK's to prioritise bigger threats, while your infantry corral the Eldar infantry units. 

 

I think we still need Allies though. Blood Angels look good in this matchup. 'Quickening' powers up DK's to swing first against WK, which is really all you need (turn on 'Force' and pray you D3 enough times to remove all it's wounds). You can put the Libby on a Bike to keep up with the Interceptors, or shove him in with some Death Company. Either way, BA like to go fast too, so they're a great Ally to have against Eldar. 

 

I'm still doubtful if Interceptor-heavy works against other armies though. It does sidestep the annoying Interception of Tau, but you have no out against their markerlights and regular shooting. Necrons don't like it though, and neither do Tyranids (you'll get the jump on them normally, and Interceptors with falchions and incinerators are ideal against hordes of chaff). You probably need 3x DK to back it up, as their heavy firepower and melee capability round out the Interceptor's strengths. 

[Prot]

On CAD vs NSF:

 

The reason I'm leaning back towards CAD is because of the rules we've been discussing on the deep strike. If I take more than one troop anyway, what am I really missing? I think it's mostly the ability to Deep Strike on turn 1. The move/shoot stuff is fine, but really how often are you going to use it?  I won't use it after Gate, so that limits its usefulness a lot.

 

Let's be honest, it's an 'okay' formation but as a force multiplier it is nothing compared to the last crop of codexes and upcoming ones (so it seems with Astartes). So in that game where a guy is on an objective I need with non-ObSec and I have ObSec to steal it...... I'll take that over a turn 1 deepstrike, especially with Draigo (Gate) and especially since I use more than 1 troop anyway.

 

I try both ways to be honest. I'll be flipping back to CAD for a while and see how it goes. I'm always changing my lists, and playstyle. I'll often try stuff that I've been told will never work... it's just what I do. ;)

 

On Strikes and Rhino's:

 

I see no harm in trying it.... My hesitation? The fundamental build is scoffed at by marine players.... because they have Drop Pod access. So if cheaper marines can't make this work, what makes me think we can?

 

They can't assault worth beans without serious tweaking. They have no flexibility in the means of a Psychic phase, and I think those are the big 'two' reasons Grey Knights might have something here. It's just pure conjecture on my part.

 

Why am I considering it? In a nutshell..... I am finding locals are loading up on so much AP2, and D weaponry that I am finding less and less reason to pay for a Terminator. If for no other reason, perhaps they will have more problems with greater numbers of 3+ saves than smaller numbers of 2+. Sorry to sound like a broken record but the AP2/D issue is getting out of hand. I'm starting to think you're better off with a T-shirt save and FnP.

 

I have the models so it's no issue to try it for fun.

 

Also I am going to incorporate more small units of Purifiers in the above mentioned lists. I find against Eldar I need more charges. More Nova powers (no cover especially) as well.

[SyNidus]

Zhukov, yes I did miss that the first time, do forgive me, I'm running into my second all-nighter at the office in a row and it's clearly taking its toll.

 

When I mention playing aggressively, I don't mean rushing thoughtlessly into the enemy lines. It's about applying pressure correctly. Perhaps that might help you understand what I mean by tactical flexibility. Each opponent presents a puzzle or a lock and I find I get the best results from figuring out where to apply the pressures so as crumple the army. I've only rarely had to hang back or sit on an objective. That may be as a result of my army list or my general playstyle.

 

Perhaps it is because my GK has earned a reputation that immediately makes my opponents think that hanging back is the key to beating it, this in turn moves me into a more aggressive stance. I'm always having to make micro adjustments to my strategy depending on the opponent, but of all the armies I've fielded, this is the most responsive. By that I mean it is able to cope with the differing strategies I have to use for the different match ups.

 

Nonetheless, I am definitely keen to see a batrep or 2 of yours and learn a thing or three. Cheers :)

 

EDIT: another thing I just remembered about why I prefer the NSF is because I only need 1 troop choice, but more importantly, I get to either swing my big 10 man squad or combat squad down to spread out a little more. This , to me, makes a huge difference because there are some games where I want the opponent to see this big squad of intimidating dudes coming right at them along with the NDKs moving up. The mass is a huge force multiplier in and of itself.

[Zhukov]

@SyNidus: Cool, no problem, in turn forgive me for my blunt tone please (it seems blunt at least now that I read it back).

 

And yes, I understand better now what you mean by it, makes sense!

 

@Prot: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absensce.

 

Seems an easy way out and I guess it is, but it might very well be true. Not everything which is viable is being played I believe. That being said: Maybe playing with Rhinos at the moment is viable precisely because nobody really plays with Rhinos at the moment? Less people might be prepared to fight it effectively, if not list wise then at least practise wise.

 

I don't know to be honest, I think it's okay as pure Grey Knights option, but that's probably about it. I'm pretty sure it can't compete with truly strong lists, but neither can 'regular' pure GK so that would make it a bit of a wash worst case scenario? Actually there is still the option that it completely sucks too ofc lol. I'll find out soon enough, for myself at least, I realise such a small sample size is meaningless for most people, unless you happen to have a ton of faith in me. Either way, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong when it's clear I was wrong. Going 0-5 at the Grand Belgium Open would make it pretty clear that I was horribly wrong for example ^^

[SyNidus]

A neat trick I learned, that you may or may not already know is the moving rhino wall. This usually entails disembarking the squad behind the rhino so that LOS is blocked, and then advancing on foot. In the movement phase, move the rhino beside the squad, making sure to give the squad open LOS to the target for their shooting. Then fire away with your squad during the shooting phase, after that use the flat out movement of your rhino to block LOS to your strikes. I see this done with marines and I've done it some times too.

 

But it's even more effective with GK because we can fire at full strength up to 24" (as opposed to the 12" rapids fire range of Bolters). Indeed, you may not even need to embark your strike squads at all. Just begin the game on foot, behind the rhino wall and advance with that. I saw your list consisting of 5 strike squads in rhinos and I think this could be amazingly intimidating having that wall of Rhinos steadily advancing while still maintaining full firepower. An extra benefit of this is that your squads will already be ready to assault the moment they get within range.

 

Top it off with some NDKs flanking and maybe an interceptor squad or two as well to apply more pressure.

 

Actually, the more I think about it, this could be very interesting indeed. You can go with the steady advance or even a shunting blitzkrieg, having your NDKs shunt forward to distract them while you turbo up.

[Prot]

Well it's something I'm going to try.

 

I used to do Rhino Wall a lot in the old days. (remember when Rhino's were deathtraps and you could get entaglement?)

 

But I have one problem. I use 'fancy' 32mm bases, and as a result the heads of all my dudes pop over the top. So at best I'm getting cover ,but technically I"m a 'head' above the Rhino wall which sucks. lol

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

The in-codex answer is Gate, we are a psyker army after all.

 

Not really. Firstly, you need to roll it on your Librarian (which may not happen, even with Liber and Mastery 3). That or Draigo, which is a very expensive solution (Raven is cheaper and has other uses besides being a transport). Secondly, you still risk going back into Reserves on a Mishap, or scattering out of range (it's still unclear if 'Rites' can be used, so you may not be able to Run back into range). An Allied drop pod would be ideal, but as far as in-codex goes, Raven is the way to go IMO. It has it's own risks, but it's flexible and powerful in other ways (like being our only viable anti-Flying Things platform, Assault Ramp, anti-tank guns etc). 

 

 

If you like the raven more than Draigo that is fine and your choice, the option for Gate was in the codex if you wanted it. Its not like Draigo has no other use - he is seriously good anyway.

 

Messing up your deep strike is a risk because it is a game of dice, on the other hand you do not need to roll to hit (just how many hits) and you deny them the chance to roll jink cover saves. Its just different dice you roll. There are of course allies options for dealing with scatter on the Gate if you choose to go down that path.

[Zhukov]

A neat trick I learned, that you may or may not already know is the moving rhino wall. This usually entails disembarking the squad behind the rhino so that LOS is blocked, and then advancing on foot. In the movement phase, move the rhino beside the squad, making sure to give the squad open LOS to the target for their shooting. Then fire away with your squad during the shooting phase, after that use the flat out movement of your rhino to block LOS to your strikes. I see this done with marines and I've done it some times too.

 

But it's even more effective with GK because we can fire at full strength up to 24" (as opposed to the 12" rapids fire range of Bolters). Indeed, you may not even need to embark your strike squads at all. Just begin the game on foot, behind the rhino wall and advance with that. I saw your list consisting of 5 strike squads in rhinos and I think this could be amazingly intimidating having that wall of Rhinos steadily advancing while still maintaining full firepower. An extra benefit of this is that your squads will already be ready to assault the moment they get within range.

 

Top it off with some NDKs flanking and maybe an interceptor squad or two as well to apply more pressure.

 

Actually, the more I think about it, this could be very interesting indeed. You can go with the steady advance or even a shunting blitzkrieg, having your NDKs shunt forward to distract them while you turbo up.

Yes, I know it, but thanks for sharing nonetheless because it is a great tactic and definitely worth mentioning. I also had not thought of it, but you are right, Grey Knights should be most often be able to make use of it.

 

Well it's something I'm going to try.

 

I used to do Rhino Wall a lot in the old days. (remember when Rhino's were deathtraps and you could get entaglement?)

 

But I have one problem. I use 'fancy' 32mm bases, and as a result the heads of all my dudes pop over the top. So at best I'm getting cover ,but technically I"m a 'head' above the Rhino wall which sucks. lol

Lol! At least nobody will try and blame you for modeling for advantage :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

On CAD vs NSF:

The reason I'm leaning back towards CAD is because of the rules we've been discussing on the deep strike. If I take more than one troop anyway, what am I really missing? I think it's mostly the ability to Deep Strike on turn 1. The move/shoot stuff is fine, but really how often are you going to use it? I won't use it after Gate, so that limits its usefulness a lot.

Let's be honest, it's an 'okay' formation but as a force multiplier it is nothing compared to the last crop of codexes and upcoming ones (so it seems with Astartes). So in that game where a guy is on an objective I need with non-ObSec and I have ObSec to steal it...... I'll take that over a turn 1 deepstrike, especially with Draigo (Gate) and especially since I use more than 1 troop anyway.

I try both ways to be honest. I'll be flipping back to CAD for a while and see how it goes. I'm always changing my lists, and playstyle. I'll often try stuff that I've been told will never work... it's just what I do.

Nemesis Strikeforce isn't OP, is what you're getting at. Which I agree with. We don't get broken Formation armies or formations to go with it. We get a mildly powerful detachment that has great synergy with our army.

As we've all discussed, Nemesis Strikeforce is only really used for two purposes. Firstly, if you're running TDA heavy and to leverage the Turn 1 Deepstrike and Run+Shoot buffs. Secondly, if you want to bring Knights as Allies (it functionally replaces the Ally detachment for us). For most other builds, CAD is better simply because you have expanded Force Org slots in Heavy and FA.

On Strikes and Rhino's:

I see no harm in trying it.... My hesitation? The fundamental build is scoffed at by marine players.... because they have Drop Pod access. So if cheaper marines can't make this work, what makes me think we can?

They can't assault worth beans without serious tweaking. They have no flexibility in the means of a Psychic phase, and I think those are the big 'two' reasons Grey Knights might have something here. It's just pure conjecture on my part.

Why am I considering it? In a nutshell..... I am finding locals are loading up on so much AP2, and D weaponry that I am finding less and less reason to pay for a Terminator. If for no other reason, perhaps they will have more problems with greater numbers of 3+ saves than smaller numbers of 2+. Sorry to sound like a broken record but the AP2/D issue is getting out of hand. I'm starting to think you're better off with a T-shirt save and FnP.

I have the models so it's no issue to try it for fun.

Also I am going to incorporate more small units of Purifiers in the above mentioned lists. I find against Eldar I need more charges. More Nova powers (no cover especially) as well.

By all means try it. But by your own admission, other Marine armies don't do mech anymore, and even their drop pod lists are lacklustre. Pretty damning indictment.

I'm considering a Purifier army build with Allied drop pods. If you're finding Terminators get vaped too easily and don't have much impact, you might wanna consider Purifier build instead. They're Terminators without TDA basically, plus of course 'Cleansing Flame', Fearless and Mastery 2. Without pods though, I don't see Purifiers working. Their lack of innate Deepstrike or other mobility is a glaring issue in an otherwise solid unit (they're a melee unit whose main draw only works at 9" range).

EDIT: another thing I just remembered about why I prefer the NSF is because I only need 1 troop choice, but more importantly, I get to either swing my big 10 man squad or combat squad down to spread out a little more. This , to me, makes a huge difference because there are some games where I want the opponent to see this big squad of intimidating dudes coming right at them along with the NDKs moving up. The mass is a huge force multiplier in and of itself.

This is a relevant point to make. Combat Squadding opens up options in different matchups, and you don't have to Deepstrike if deploying normally is a better option.

A neat trick I learned, that you may or may not already know is the moving rhino wall. This usually entails disembarking the squad behind the rhino so that LOS is blocked, and then advancing on foot. In the movement phase, move the rhino beside the squad, making sure to give the squad open LOS to the target for their shooting. Then fire away with your squad during the shooting phase, after that use the flat out movement of your rhino to block LOS to your strikes. I see this done with marines and I've done it some times too.

That works great until the Rhino is dead.

But it's even more effective with GK because we can fire at full strength up to 24" (as opposed to the 12" rapids fire range of Bolters). Indeed, you may not even need to embark your strike squads at all. Just begin the game on foot, behind the rhino wall and advance with that. I saw your list consisting of 5 strike squads in rhinos and I think this could be amazingly intimidating having that wall of Rhinos steadily advancing while still maintaining full firepower. An extra benefit of this is that your squads will already be ready to assault the moment they get within range.

With storm bolters, sure. Not with the squad psycannon though. That's the issue. All you're doing is firing some S4 at the enemy.

If you like the raven more than Draigo that is fine and your choice, the option for Gate was in the codex if you wanted it. Its not like Draigo has no other use - he is seriously good anyway.

Messing up your deep strike is a risk because it is a game of dice, on the other hand you do not need to roll to hit (just how many hits) and you deny them the chance to roll jink cover saves. Its just different dice you roll. There are of course allies options for dealing with scatter on the Gate if you choose to go down that path.

Yeah I know, I'm pointing out that Purifiers aren't a good hard-counter if they don't have a reliable means of getting close to the target. Drop pods are one-use and rely on the Crimson Hunters being on-table. Raven runs into the same issues, if they show up after the Raven, you'll be shot first and risk dying.

[Gentlemanloser]

I still say one of the better powers of the NSF is the reduction in minimum Troop requirements.

 

Anything that lets you take more of what works, be it NDK, Interceptors or Purifiers, is a great thing.

 

Obvisouly, if you've designed your list around Strikes or GKT, this isn't a draw.

 

But why build around Strikes, when an extra NDK will do more for you?

[Zhukov]

But why build around Strikes, when an extra NDK will do more for you?

Because I don't believe an extra NDK will do more for me, but I realise that might have to do with what my goals are with the list:

 

Rhinos + Strikes and Dreadknights are opposite units basicly in the sense that things that hardcounter Dreadknights have issues with Rhinos + Strikes. For me playing with ObSec Rhinos and Marines along with 3 Dreadknights is an insurance in the sense that I'll always have a chance to win. To me it is a kind of safety I need I guess? I know basicly that when I'm clearly better than my oppenent, I will always win with a list like these, regardless of what he fields (in a random competitive environment), as no particular list hardcounters a list like this. It's just rather weak overall lol, so a lot of lists will have the upperhand against it. Which means that when my oppenents are equally skilled, they will probably win :)

[Gaz1858]

As with all topics when it comes to GK there are no downright correct answers and a certain point of moderation is expected dependant on local meta, choice etc.

 

We are a competitive army even with our minimal list choices and there are a number of ways to run our army. DP Purifiers, Draigobomb etc

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I still say one of the better powers of the NSF is the reduction in minimum Troop requirements.

 

Anything that lets you take more of what works, be it NDK, Interceptors or Purifiers, is a great thing.

 

Obvisouly, if you've designed your list around Strikes or GKT, this isn't a draw.

 

But why build around Strikes, when an extra NDK will do more for you?

 

Well actually CAD has greater DK spam potential, because of the third Heavy slot. You can pay 220 in Troops, but that's around what your 1 Terminator squad would cost anyway in a NSF, so it's pretty samey TBH. 

 

Strikes only real purpose these days is being cheap Troops for CAD builds. It's sad how bad they are now. On paper, you'd think 20pt Marines with force swords, storm bolters, psychic buffs etc would be worth it (not to mention innate Deepstrike). In practise however, they're just not doing enough work. If we still had Henchmen, I don't think Strikes would even be taken at all. 

We are a competitive army even with our minimal list choices and there are a number of ways to run our army. DP Purifiers, Draigobomb etc 

 

We're only vaguely competitive in two different builds;

 

Dreadknight spam: Boring, but effective. I'm honestly surprised it doesn't see greater success, but I would hazard that people simply either don't play it at tourneys, or the sheer quantity of AP2 in the meta game locks it out of the top tables. It also suffers a little against horde armies. They can't kill you, but they can bog you down in endless melee. 

 

Draigo+Centurions: This requires Marine Allies, by the way, so we're actually borrowing Marine viability and giving them one of the few genuinely unique tricks we have (Gate and Draigo's formidable statline). Again, it's pretty boring and only plays one way. Again, you can run into issues against heavy AP2 lists, more mobile armies, or getting bogged down in melee with hordes of chaff. 

 

Neither of these builds have unseated xenos domination of the top tables (or any other GK build for that matter). So, it's pretty generous  to call them 'competitive'. 'Viable' would be a better description.

[Gaz1858]

What about purifiers in dps i got first overall with? What about people using GK as allies and not as primary? What about 3 x purgation squads behind a void shield network all armed with psycannons with strike squads, ICs, Inqs all armed with psycannons. To say there are only two builds is short sighted by anyone and not taking into account the entire 40K game including allies etc. What about a number of armies i could come up with in one hour using allies that arent those two? And overall what about people that use units that are crap (im looking at you the awesome dreadnought models that are cack) but people want to use them?

 

People are expecting Draigo bombs, so play Anti meta. Building a list that is opposite to the meta is just as effective as building a list which is positive against your local meta. Rhino rush could work these days full of purifiers.

 

If your meta is being terrorised by a farsight bomb with comms relay take a callidus.

 

Understanding your local meta will help any player on B&C more than any randomised topic will. There is one statement I have made and believe when it comes to 40K "Any army CAN beat any other army". How you do it is understanding your army, mission and opponent.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well actually CAD has greater DK spam potential, because of the third Heavy slot.

 

It doesn't overall.  At some breakpoints it's better than NSF / Multiple NSF, but mostly, the NSF win.

 

Number of NDK;

 

1: NSF (Tax 220)

2: NSF (Tax 220)

3: CAD (Tax 330)

4: NSF (Tax 440)

5: CAD/NSF Tie (Tax 660)

6: CAD/NSF Tie (Tax 660)

7: NSF (Tax 880)

8: NSF (Tax 880)

 

The only time that a CAD is outright better than the NSF is when you want three, and only three NDK.

 

 

 

What about people using GK as allies and not as primary?

 

I've bought up this point many times.  But is that a GK army?

 

Is an Ultramarine Army with Tiggy, Grav Cents and Draigo as an ally to carry them a GK army?  or a n Ultramraine army?

 

To be honest, these lables don't really work any more, and we should move away from them.

 

 

 

What about 3 x purgation squads behind a void shield network all armed with psycannons with strike squads, ICs, Inqs all armed with psycannons.

 

That wins anything?  Really?

 

When any sane opponent would just destory you from 24+ range.

 

 

 

What about a number of armies i could come up with in one hour using allies that arent those two?

 

Is a GK army that using 1+ Imperial Knights as Allies a GK army?  or an Imperial Knight army?  What brings the 'power' to make the army work and kill things?  The GK or the IK?

 

 

 

There is one statement I have made and believe when it comes to 40K "Any army CAN beat any other army". How you do it is understanding your army, mission and opponent.          

 

That's a fairly, redundant, statement.

 

I could build an uber crap Inquisitorial Henchman army, that would have *zero* chance of beating any other army in the entire game.

 

So no, any army cannot (reliably?, realistically?) beat every other army.

 

Edit: Pure Legion of the Damned.

 

Any point level you want.

 

I auto lose turn one.  *no way* to win against any other (non LotD) army.  Ever.

 

(I know this last point might seem a little pendantic or sematic.  But I think the point I want to make is there are obvious 'power' level differences between armies in 40k.  And those with all the power have a much easier/better time dominating, than those they don't.  Armies aren't all equal.  Nor is generalmanship (lol is that even a word?).  And while potentially (in every case bar outliers like LotD) someone could roll all 6's while thier opponent rolls all 1's and win.  When they absolutley shouldn't have, these cases are such flukes, and are probably never to be seen, that they really shouldn't be counted on, nor used as examples.  If this makes sense. :) )

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What about purifiers in dps i got first overall with?

 

Once. If you're able to replicate that success more broadly, I'd love to see it. I'm not even being sarcastic. I'd actually like Purifiers build to be a thing. But if we look across the tournament scene, it's just not happening. I've brought up this point before, anecdotes =/= meta. Maybe if we see a shift to infantry armies, things could change. As they stand now though, it's not something that's going to get to the top tables of say Adepticon etc. 

What about people using GK as allies and not as primary?

 

Then by definition you're no longer playing Grey Knights. You're playing Imperial Super Friends. Which is fine, and it's clearly how GW have designed almost all Imperial factions now. 

What about 3 x purgation squads behind a void shield network all armed with psycannons with strike squads, ICs, Inqs all armed with psycannons.

 

Yeah, I actually can't think of a worse army to build with Grey Knights. That's probably the most ineffectual, wasteful and pointless build to make. It's not the worst list in 40k (Servitor Spam still has that honour), but it's pretty close. You lose before deployment with that list. 

To say there are only two builds is short sighted by anyone and not taking into account the entire 40K game including allies etc. What about a number of armies i could come up with in one hour using allies that arent those two? And overall what about people that use units that are crap (im looking at you the awesome dreadnought models that are cack) but people want to use them?

 

Oh, we have plenty of builds. Are any of them actually good? No, not really. The ones I outlined aren't even that powerful, all things considered. But they're about as powerful as Grey Knight get. As far as Allies go, we're not even the best Allies from the Imperial perspective. IG, Marines, Knight-Titans etc can get by without us, and Ally with eachother for stronger combos. Our biggest claims to fame are Draigo and DK's (Purifiers and Terminator Troops that don't suck as honourable mentions). 

People are expecting Draigo bombs, so play Anti meta. Building a list that is opposite to the meta is just as effective as building a list which is positive against your local meta. Rhino rush could work these days full of purifiers.

 

No, it won't. Just because no one is taking mech doesn't magically make Rhinos an amazing left-field build that will stomp all before it. There is a reason mech isn't popular right now, even in the armies who can do it well (IG and Marines). It's because Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Daemons, IG, Marines etc all hard-counter AV11 quite well. Even AV12 doesn't last long without some kind of protection (either Jink, or Flyer status). Jank is still jank, even if no one is really using it. 

If your meta is being terrorised by a farsight bomb with comms relay take a callidus.

 

Callidus doesn't do anything to Farsight Bomb. A Culexus is actually a better option. 

Understanding your local meta will help any player on B&C more than any randomised topic will. There is one statement I have made and believe when it comes to 40K "Any army CAN beat any other army". How you do it is understanding your army, mission and opponent. 

 

Sure, in theory. In practise? Some lists simply bring more to the table than others, and on average dice will win comfortably. It actually takes improbable (not impossible, just difficult or unlikely) events for sub-par lists to beat better ones. Does that ever happen? Sure, all the time. 40k is a game with RNG at it's heart. But that same RNG swings both ways. It's why the best lists have redundancy and reliability at their core. They're able to recover from bad rolls or bad turns, do well with average outcomes, and capitalise immensely on good fortune. If you don't build your list with some expectation of failure (and more importantly, ways to mitigate or recover from bad results), you're at the mercy of the Dice Gods almost entirely. Which is not a viable strategy. 

It doesn't overall.  At some breakpoints it's better than NSF / Multiple NSF, but mostly, the NSF win.

 

Number of NDK;

 

1: NSF (Tax 220)

2: NSF (Tax 220)

3: CAD (Tax 330)

4: NSF (Tax 440)

5: CAD/NSF Tie (Tax 660)

6: CAD/NSF Tie (Tax 660)

7: NSF (Tax 880)

8: NSF (Tax 880)

 

The only time that a CAD is outright better than the NSF is when you want three, and only three NDK.

 

Something else to consider is source restrictions. It's not always possible to double NSF, or even double CAD. So that may change your metrics somewhat. Thanks for the breakdown though. I sort of had it in my head as '4+ DK you'll want double or triple NSF, but 3 kinda favours a single CAD'. 

've bought up this point many times.  But is that a GK army?

 

Is an Ultramarine Army with Tiggy, Grav Cents and Draigo as an ally to carry them a GK army?  or a n Ultramraine army?

 

To be honest, these lables don't really work any more, and we should move away from them.

 

Easy, A Grey Knight army is an army of just Grey Knights. Like any label, it only works if that's all thats going on. Once you bring in Allies, it starts being an Imperial Super Friends force. 

That wins anything?  Really?

 

When any sane opponent would just destory you from 24+ range.

 

To be fair, it'll beat that one guy who brings Green Tide. Maybe. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Apologies for the pedantry to follow next. ;)

 

 

 

anecdotes /=/ meta

 

=/=

 

;)

 

 

 

It's not the worst list in 40k (Servitor Spam still has that honour)

 

Pure LotD trumps Dual SS Warrior Accolytes with a single Servitor.  It's like the old Chaos Marine Daemon Bomb with no Icon list.

 

Excet you have zero units on board.  Ever.

 

 

 

Something else to consider is source restrictions.

 

Nope.  Not considering that.  Why bother?  You bring comp into it and I claim that Edlar are crap, becuase obviously you can't use a Wraithknight/Avatar/Warp Spiders/Wraithguard with a WWP.

 

Becuase comp.

 

;)

[jeffersonian000]

Anyone who still thinks GK are a mono-build army need to read this thread. Just say'n.

 

SJ

[Prot]

The thread is meant to concentrate on GK's. It's a Grey Knight sub-forum. It makes sense to conclude we're mainly talking about Grey Knights.

 

The thing is we have to keep in mind we're talking about a LOT of players here guys, not just the 1% playing WAAC lists. There are guys just playing Grey Knights, There are guys who never go to tournaments.... a lot of groups acknowledge, but don't have crazy allies running around, some don't even use Super Heavies.

 

We hear and read about the LVO style lists, and I completely agree that it's hard to tell what half of those armies are supposed to be. But personally, I find that incredibly boring. At that point, you're not playing an army, you're playing a few models, repeated as often as possible. And it's a minor group representing a much larger group that's trying to understand how best to use GK.

 

I use pure GK more than I ally. A lot more. When I go to a local store, I'd say less than 25% of armie are allied. And of those, probably less than 10% are running Super Heavies. Tournaments probably account for very little of the average player's playtime, and on top of that, like it or not, there are still Comp based tournamnets killing a lot of the allied goofiness.

 

A lot of people see competitive 40k as broken beyond repair simply because of allies. Many of these people do not care that you can stick guardsmen in pods, and use Knights with Chaos.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

=/=

Haha thanks, I'll go back and edit now.

Pure LotD trumps Dual SS Warrior Accolytes with a single Servitor. It's like the old Chaos Marine Daemon Bomb with no Icon list.

Excet you have zero units on board. Ever.

I guess. But in terms of armies that actually put something on the board, Servitor Spam is still superior.

Nope. Not considering that. Why bother? You bring comp into it and I claim that Edlar are crap, becuase obviously you can't use a Wraithknight/Avatar/Warp Spiders/Wraithguard with a WWP.

Becuase comp.

Nope. Even assuming Warhost is banned, there is not a single tourney that doesn't have at least two sources. Also, no tourneys I'm aware of ban Allies. Eldar can do WWP+Wraithflamers with a CAD and an Allied DE detachment.

Anyone who still thinks GK are a mono-build army need to read this thread. Just say'n.

Depends on what you want that build to do. I still think 6x DK is our only real competitive hope, if we're talking pure lists. Once you bring Allies, things of course change (Purifiers get drop pods to fix their mobility issues, Draigo can team up with Centurions etc etc).

The thing is we have to keep in mind we're talking about a LOT of players here guys, not just the 1% playing WAAC lists. There are guys just playing Grey Knights, There are guys who never go to tournaments.... a lot of groups acknowledge, but don't have crazy allies running around, some don't even use Super Heavies.

'WAAC' is a term invented by losers. By definition, we all wish to win the game we play. No one desires defeat (and anyone who says they don't care about that is lying). Another point to make is that because everyone's meta game is slightly different, we can't really discuss narrow individual cases. Because they simply won't apply to anyone else. What can be discussed is what happens at the competitive end of the game. The things happening there impact everyone elses meta. Maybe no one brings Lords of War locally. So what? All it takes is one guy to start playing Knight-Titans, or bring a Forge World model or two, and suddenly your meta assumptions are blown out of the water. Forewarned is forearmed.

We hear and read about the LVO style lists, and I completely agree that it's hard to tell what half of those armies are supposed to be. But personally, I find that incredibly boring. At that point, you're not playing an army, you're playing a few models, repeated as often as possible. And it's a minor group representing a much larger group that's trying to understand how best to use GK.

I disagree. LVO is just one tourney, there are plenty others (local and national) which have their own unique restrictions and meta. We've also seen some pretty weird developments lately (Lictorshame, those bizarre Marine lists, Tau falling off somewhat). It's always changing. Thus, it pays to keep pace with new developments. Because there is largely nothing stopping your local opponents taking competitive builds or units. Eldar and Necrons will probably start showing their impact soon, and we have yet to see what that will mean.

I use pure GK more than I ally. A lot more. When I go to a local store, I'd say less than 25% of armie are allied. And of those, probably less than 10% are running Super Heavies. Tournaments probably account for very little of the average player's playtime, and on top of that, like it or not, there are still Comp based tournamnets killing a lot of the allied goofiness.

Comp is the cancer that is killing the competitive scene. So, I wouldn't put much stock in it's future in tournaments.

As I mentioned earlier, your local meta is just that. It's not relevant to anyone else except you. Thus, it's better to talk about broader trends and objective meta as it applies to all 40k. Once you devolve into 'oh but we have no Super-Heavy units locally, or much Allies', you're losing relevance to anyone who does fight that stuff. Not to mention, if anyone starts doing those things locally, you're now outflanked by it entirely.

A lot of people see competitive 40k as broken beyond repair simply because of allies. Many of these people do not care that you can stick guardsmen in pods, and use Knights with Chaos.

Top kek. In complete repudiation of that view, the most competitive armies in 40k are pure or only use Battle-Brother Alliances at that. Also, the benefits of Allies are skewed heavily in Imperial favour. Xenos largely get by without it, or only use limited BB Allies for specific combos (WWP+Wraithflamer for example). Sure, some Allies seem absurd or in conflict with the lore. But this is 40k. You can justify just about any Alliance, even the 'Come the Apocalypse' ones, if you're creative enough. And people telling you they don't like it for lore reasons doesn't mean anything. That's just their opinion.

It's fine if people want to pretend tournaments don't exist, or even ignore the existence of entire factions or combos. That's their prerogative. But it doesn't make their opinions relevant to anyone else outside their small pool. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to at least acknowledge that 40k is bigger than the games you play. I sympathise, because I find it hard to keep up with every new release, dataslate, detachment, formation etc. GW have been incredibly prolific lately in giving most factions a facelift, and giving them options. Now, are all those options equally good? Nope. But one of the most consistent complaints the community had in earlier editions was 'all I have is my codex, there isn't much more I can do unless I play another army entirely'. Now, xenos are on top, and Allies mean armies have never had more potential options (especially with the change from 6th to 7th with regards to sources, ie you can take as many as you like).

[Gentlemanloser]

Also, no tourneys I'm aware of ban Allies.

Mine does.

My local basement tourney bans most things, that aren't HQ or Troop slots.

There.

Edit: Oh and I've only just stumbled across the new SM Devs with Grav+Amps for the new Dex.

Nice...

Stick a few of those in Drop Pods.

/sigh