Grey Knights: Know Thy Foe

[Prot]

Okay guys.... that's way off topic. Please start something else if you want to keep talking competitve vs. non-competitive or whatever suits your fancy.

[Gentlemanloser]

Apologies.

Back on topic. I know this is really speculation atm, but how do you think out matchups will change versus the upcoming new Marines?

Just the snippet of Grav Cannon & Amp Devs has the potential to change the way Marines play significantly.

Imagine Drop Pods loaded with these guys, dropping turn one in front of our NDK and melting them out of existence.

We don't have the bodies to bubble wrap our NDK. And we no longer have any Deep Strike protection.

While this could have been done already with Multi Meltas, I find Grav Cannons to far more dangerous.

Especially with built in Amps. All they need now are rerolls to hit and Split Fire.

[Prot]

The new marine codex, I've joked, is looking like Grav-dex.

 

I agree it's a major problem from what we already know: 4 Grav Cannons per squad.

 

I am reminded of when I play any heavy AP2 army, I've actually had success holding everything back. I know it's controversial, but it can work. Otherwise I see deploying being very risky... you're hugging board edges hoping your opponent's pods deviate off the table?

[Gentlemanloser]

That Devs get built in rerolls to wound is salt on the wound.  You can be the new Marine Dex will have Fast Slot Drop Pods as well.

 

If there's a chapter tactic that gives them a cheap reroll to hit.  Ouch.

 

Devs have built in Split Fire (I'm assuming that remains as well...).

 

What do they miss?

 

I really don't see much joy in facing these.  It's also a tactic that somewhat mitigate the mobility of other armies.  Face Eldar Jetbike hordes?  Drop next to them and Grav thier 3+ Saves off the board.

[Aethernitas]

I just hope that the SM codex will finally make Dreadnoughts viable again. I'm very aware of the fact that this doesn't automatically mean that our Dreads will be viable too but if they buff the vanilla-Dread statline we should at least profit from that.

 

Concerning GravDevs I just hope that they get the points right. I'm like weaponry with alternatives ways to wound and special rules that make them a viable option to all the existing weapons but if they make the Devs too cheap we probably will see Grav-spam galore for the next few years. One thing I don't like about Grav in general is that it outperforms plasma in pretty much everything it is supposed to do. I hope they adress that somehow.

[Gentlemanloser]

I doubt Gravs will cost more than Las Cannons.

[Prot]

I personally experience locally at least that marines in general are behind the xenos, some more then others but I fear if even half the rumours are true, we're gonna feel that gap a lot more on top of what limitations we already have.

Grav-devs, new tanks, a dozen formations.... at least we'll always have the psychic phase over them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Back on topic. I know this is really speculation atm, but how do you think out matchups will change versus the upcoming new Marines?

Just the snippet of Grav Cannon & Amp Devs has the potential to change the way Marines play significantly.

Imagine Drop Pods loaded with these guys, dropping turn one in front of our NDK and melting them out of existence.

We don't have the bodies to bubble wrap our NDK. And we no longer have any Deep Strike protection.

While this could have been done already with Multi Meltas, I find Grav Cannons to far more dangerous.

Especially with built in Amps. All they need now are rerolls to hit and Split Fire.

As I recall Grav cannon are Heavy weapons though, so they'll be Snap Firing. Even assuming re-rolls to hit (from either 'Prescience' or Chapter Tactics of some kind), that's still kinda unreliable. Factor in cover and/or invulnerable saves...I'm a bit dubious. I'll wait till the codex drops before I start panicking too much.

One thing that won't change is we completely outclass most Marine units in a firefight and especially in melee. I don't expect that to change in the new codex. So, at least from an infantry vs infantry perspective, we have an edge. Newer things like the Derodeo Plasma variant Dreadnought, how Centurions change, what the new Chapter Tactics will be etc matter more IMO. The support roster for Marines has always been their strength. Their Troops are utility at best (Scouts), or outpaced by the meta game (Bikers, Tac Marines for 3 editions straight now).

[Gentlemanloser]

Assult Centurion outclass us in Melee.  With more Bolters and Meltas/Flamers to boot.

 

The new Dev minis have reinforced leg armour, this is leading to speculation of some sort of S&P or Relentless for them.

 

Still even if they only snap fire thier Grav Cannons, that 5 shots each.  With rerolls no doubt.

 

Grav Cannons > Salvo Psycannons

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Assult Centurion outclass us in Melee.  With more Bolters and Meltas/Flamers to boot.

 

And yet they've never seen table time. Anywhere. Because people are still infatuated with Dev Centurions. I'm actually surprised how shunned they are. I agree they're quite powerful. Apparently railgun melee attacks at I4 aren't enough. Lack of invul save is probably why people default back to Stormhammers I guess. 

he new Dev minis have reinforced leg armour, this is leading to speculation of some sort of S&P or Relentless for them.

 

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Still even if they only snap fire thier Grav Cannons, that 5 shots each.  With rerolls no doubt.

 

5 shots doesn't average a single hit, FYI. With re-rolls, it averages 1-2. Still don't care. Unless they have Relentless, which would hilariously invalidate Dev Centurions entirely. 

Grav Cannons > Salvo Psycannons

 

Woah now. Let's not go crazy. At least the Snap Firing Devs aren't Snap Firing 12" ;) but they're still Snap Firing. 

[Zhukov]

Grav Cannons are salvo 3/5.

[Aethernitas]

Having read the newest SM rumours the WD article is indeed talking about inertia dempeners and magnetic clamps for the Devs to brace themselves before firing. That could mean relentless/slow and purposeful or maybe some bonus dependent on wether they moved last turn or not.

 

The article also talks about some formations and I found th Strike Force Ultra especially interesting. It sounds like the same as the Apo formation with the same name as it deploys only first company veterans in terminator armour and by teleport or Storm Raven. Sounds like exactly what GK's should be? Well yeah and who wants to bet that that formation will get better deep strike rules special rules than we have? I'm pretty sure the Ravens in the formation will get some candy too - like coming in turn 1 or something. I haven't read a single rule thats in the SM dex and I already have this ominous feeling that Grey Knights will soon get curbstomped at their strongest disciplines.

[jeffersonian000]

GK might get rolled into the new SM codex. Or not. If not, we'll see some dark times until 8th comes out this Xmas.

 

SJ

[Zhukov]

Dark times indeed, too many codices have been released lately which absolutely murder Dreadknights and I am pretty sure the next codices wont make it any better. (Skitarii Vanguard, CM Kataphrons, Eldar D and now probably more Marine Grav and DA plasma lulz)

 

If (and it is still an if) Dreadknights are not good anymore, then we are literally codex Libby + 5 Strikes + Draigo competitively speaking, as far as that is not already the case.

 

We will see, I am not too bothered with it personally. I mean let us look at it positively: If Dreadknights are not attractive to take anymore, then that would free up our heavy support slots for Land Raiders and Purgation squads ;)

[Aethernitas]

GK might get rolled into the new SM codex. Or not. If not, we'll see some dark times until 8th comes out this Xmas.

 

I guess thats cynicism? Of course they won't get rolled into the new SM dex.

 

My point was that it sucks for a specialized army to get outdone by a jack-of-all-trades army that can do everything and most of it better than us. What are the dark times ou are talking about?

[Gentlemanloser]

And yet they've never seen table time. Anywhere. Because people are still infatuated with Dev Centurions. I'm actually surprised how shunned they are. I agree they're quite powerful. Apparently railgun melee attacks at I4 aren't enough. Lack of invul save is probably why people default back to Stormhammers I guess.

I know.. When Centurion were first released I dismissed the Dev versions over Assault ones. Becuase when you actually look at a unit of Assult Centurion, they have more Bolter shots, more Melta shots, better armour, more wounds, better toughness, and S10 on initiative CC attacks, when compared to normal Marines.

And are cheaper to boot.

But for some reason, no one seems to load up on these. If I saves were a problem, you'd think that's something Invis, Sanctuary, or sticking the big dude with the 3++ save up front would deal with.

Assault Centurion should be feared.

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Inertia Dampeners and Mag Clamps.

I guess thats cynicism? Of course they won't get rolled into the new SM dex.

I think Jeffs point is that if we don't get rolled, we're gonna be quite some distance behind the new Marines. Whcih would suck.

And I'll probably use my GK minis with 'normal' marine rules. Red Grey Hunters HO!

[Zhukov]

 

Assault Centurion should be feared.

Yeah, fear a slow and purposeful combat unit! Tremble before the Assault Centurions who are crawling slowly towards you! 

[Prot]

The boots could mean anything on the devs... heck even sky fire would make sense... or firing salvo as if standing still! OUCH.

Right now, what we do know is it looks like each Dev squad is getting 4 Grav Cannons.

 

So that means on landing, you're looking at 12 Grav shots, potentially twin linked or assisted with Tactical Doctrines (which I've heard are intact, just a bit better (IE they spill into assault too). Or even just good ol' Divination.... Plus whatever the Sarge has.

 

That is going to level the Super Heavy arena, and as a side effect it should kill units like Dreadknights. As a secondary affect to us, would you still take a Knight as an Ally knowing this is going to be podding into your blind side (no invuln) and very likely taking the Knight out in turn 1 or 2?

 

Personally? I can't see taking a Knight anymore. It will just be too easy. Heck even a Wraithknight will get wounds fed back to it and have FnP. But a Knight? For all intents and purposes it should be gone with proper gearing towards Gravistators.

 

Our only real defense is rules against putting them in pods. Let's hope those fancy magnetized boots don't fit in pods! (I know I'm reaching here!)

 

This development, along with what I've been facing in my meta lately... the last 3-6 months, I feel the 2+ save, highpriced unit has its days numbered. I think the best defense against a lot of these newer codexes is fielding junk... lots of junk. We don't have a lot of junk. Everything is expensive, but if my opponent is paying big points for AP2, Grav, AP2 flamers, Gargantuan creatures.... then I feel crud is where GW is pushing this.

 

For a long time it was like GW was pushing this to superheavy stardom. Now it's getting easier and easier to get this stuff off the table (D is too plentiful, Grav is insane, Gauss, etc.)

 

As a side note the Strike Force Ultra formation was horrible. I tried it.... it's a good fundamental idea but it needs MASSIVE impovement to come even close to the flexibility of NSF. It is also very expensive as it stands, even in its smallest incarnation. There are a dozen formations in the book... some are bound to be lemons. I'm just being honest here, It will drive me nuts if Strike Force Ultra is a better tier choice.

 

* I predicted the Grav dex would get like this. I also predict Assault Centurions will get a decent improvement. Almost everyone that owns a Centurion has a Grav glued to it. It'll be interesting to see what GW does with them this time around.

[Zhukov]

Solid analysis by Prot and I pretty much agree. One normally protects against Pod lists by for example bubblewrapping or reserving expensive fragile units. We are bad at doing both as everything we field is expensive and fragile lol. The only reasonable protection we have are... Rhinos ( :P ) which is not enough! 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

On the plus side, we're Battle Brothers with the new hotness. So we can just bring Red Hunters to supplement us. Kinda fighting fire with fire though. Does nothing for pure lists. 

 

If Grav is really going to that prevalent, I don't see us ever mattering on the competitive scene. Mech is locked out by Necrons, Eldar and Tau. If DK spam is gonna be locked out by a typical Marine build...I think we're done. Not that we were exactly that powerful before, but at least grav-spam was expensive and slow. Drop podded Devs? GW removed all our anti-Deepstrike tech, we have to bring in Coteaz or Ally decent Interceptor (the new Derodeo Plasma variant looks better and better now...). 

 

Urgh. I'm glad I've got Red Hunters and 30k Mechanicum as my side armies. One just got buffed, the other is getting new toys in 'Tempest' to try out. 

[Prot]

I completely agree.

 

I know this is something that makes people cringe, but maybe it is seriously time for us to consider PAGK in Rhino's again.... I know, I know, it makes everyone squirm.

 

But if the Alpha Grav-strike is taken out of their sails because they're wasting it on Rhino poop.... I mean the thing is a Grav is like Gauss. It cares not from where the hullpoints come from, just that they are all equal. So I can have a Gravistator knock 6 hullpoints off of 2 rhino's for a wreck, or have it toast a Knight with the same approximate effort.

 

I'm saying this because I see this happening -or- (if the new Dev booties allow it....) Draigo will be Gating around Tiguius and his new, trimmer, more Grav-tastic friends around at every tournament. Fun! (not)

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Yeah, fear a slow and purposeful combat unit! Tremble before the Assault Centurions who are crawling slowly towards you!

 

S&P is no where near as debilitating as it used to be. ;)

 

I'll take the current S&P for S10 AP2 CC on initiative any day!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

But if the Alpha Grav-strike is taken out of their sails because they're wasting it on Rhino poop.... I mean the thing is a Grav is like Gauss. It cares not from where the hullpoints come from, just that they are all equal. So I can have a Gravistator knock 6 hullpoints off of 2 rhino's for a wreck, or have it toast a Knight with the same approximate effort.

 

I'm saying this because I see this happening -or- (if the new Dev booties allow it....) Draigo will be Gating around Tiguius and his new, trimmer, more Grav-tastic friends around at every tournament. Fun! (not)

 

I honestly feel like that's not going to work. Because just about every other army you fight has zero issue killing Rhinos. And yeah, you block them for one turn. But next turn, your Rhinos are flaming wreckage, and you've just delayed defeat. Same with any other force. PAGK aren't the answer. 

 

As always, we're better served going on the offensive. That's why I'd say we really can't function without Allies anymore. Either bring Coteaz, or as a better measure, Ally the new Derodeo Dreadnought variant. You can't stop the pod, so don't even bother. What you can stop is them drawing Line of Sight, because if they do so, you can Intercept them back with a twin-linked S7 AP2 Large Blast. So, they cower behind their pod and give up their alpha-strike, or roll the dice and hope you scatter badly twice. Allying Marines also means you get access to an auspex on their HQ choice (Libby or MOTF, depending on preference), so you can reduce any cover saves by 1 too. 

 

I still think DK's have game against the grav-spam. You're more mobile, so you can avoid getting shot once the pods have landed (if they give chase they don't have the range to threaten you anymore, due to Salvo rules). 'Sanctuary' means you still get a decent save, better than 90% of MC's will ever get. Heavy psycannon, heavy incinerator and gatling psilencer are all great at murdering Devastators. It's kinda like with Ravens and other Flyers, it's pretty much down to who gets their shot in first. 

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

GK might get rolled into the new SM codex. Or not. If not, we'll see some dark times until 8th comes out this Xmas.

I guess thats cynicism? Of course they won't get rolled into the new SM dex.

 

My point was that it sucks for a specialized army to get outdone by a jack-of-all-trades army that can do everything and most of it better than us. What are the dark times ou are talking about?

Not cynicism, just keeping it real. People S their pants when NDKs become GCs, then rage quit when Riptids get the same treatment.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Not cynicism, just keeping it real. People S their pants when NDKs become GCs, then rage quit when Riptids get the same treatment.

 

It won't happen. I'd put cold hard cash on us not being even looked at till 8th edition, if even then. And assuming we are updated, DK's are gonna get nerfed hard. GC status is only for xenos ;) . Would not be surprised if the Riptide got an upgrade. It's not like it's already impossible to kill at range or anything.