Grey Knights: Know Thy Foe

[Prot]

Honestly the way the game is going the great NDK is becoming more and more average with each codex. In fact I have said before, if I take more than 2 it can hurt he in my meta right now.

 

What I truly hope is they leave it alone, tweak the weapons (something has to happen to Psilencers imo and some other stuff) then give a serious look to some of our borked units so every list doesn't look the same.

 

Since GW spent their marine release at this time, I'm thinking Christmas is definitely going to be 8th. I'd be shocked if it wasn't. Also, we'd be a good cash cow for them by then. We'd be starving for any treatment, and the marine releases will have been nearly -empty- for several months in a row! (Assuming Dark Angels are also out within weeks.)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Honestly the way the game is going the great NDK is becoming more and more average with each codex. In fact I have said before, if I take more than 2 it can hurt he in my meta right now.

 

 

Depends. DK's are not too bad against AP2 anyway, if its the S6/7 variety. S8+ of course is wounding on 2's so it's more annoying and lethal. 'Sanctuary' is a decent buff to their resiliance. They're still leagues ahead of Terminators in that regard. 

What I truly hope is they leave it alone, tweak the weapons (something has to happen to Psilencers imo and some other stuff) then give a serious look to some of our borked units so every list doesn't look the same.

 

I'd say that's wishing for too much. DK's are actually undercosted so if anything I expect a price increase. Purifiers won't change, they're not getting Deepstrike anytime soon. Purgators won't either, and the Salvo rules are here to stay on psycannons. GW probably think 'Force' is enough on psilencers, although we might see them made Salvo as well (they're completely useless as Heavy weapons). Paladins won't change either, GW are convinced TDA is still powerful. 

Since GW spent their marine release at this time, I'm thinking Christmas is definitely going to be 8th. I'd be shocked if it wasn't. Also, we'd be a good cash cow for them by then. We'd be starving for any treatment, and the marine releases will have been nearly -empty- for several months in a row! (Assuming Dark Angels are also out within weeks.)

 

Dark Angels and Blood Angels could be early next year. But we're not going to be touched until at least mid-way through 8th, if that. 

[Aethernitas]

Dark Angels and Blood Angels could be early next year. But we're not going to be touched until at least mid-way through 8th, if that. 

 

Dark Angels are pretty much confirmed for this summer. 8th won't be upon us for a long time.

[jeffersonian000]

NDKs aren't undercosted. If you think that, I have no idea what game it is you are playing. WraithKnights are undercosted. NDK are costed correctly for their performance envelope. Knight Titans are costed correctly.

 

If GW does go ahead and GC the NDK was no other changes, it's survivability goes up a small amount due to resistance to poison and minor resistance to ID. Stomps will increase its offensive output. Any that's it. It's still T6, still S6. Yet, it fits the paradigm of large models going Superheavy.

 

And yes, we are seeing 8th around Xmas.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dark Angels are pretty much confirmed for this summer. 8th won't be upon us for a long time.

 

Wow, that's fast. I'm still blown away how quick 7th is draining away from us. Doesn't even feel like a real edition at this rate, with everyone getting a redux. 

NDKs aren't undercosted. If you think that, I have no idea what game it is you are playing. WraithKnights are undercosted. NDK are costed correctly for their performance envelope. Knight Titans are costed correctly.

 

DK's are so undercosted they make Terminators look bad. Our internal balance is a sad joke. If you can't see that I don't know what army you're playing. 

 

Wraithknights are not undercosted. They're broken. Utterly and completely game-wrecking broken. DK's aren't in the same conversation as WK. I'd expect tourney organisers to start banning Craftworld Warhost to prevent WK spam alone (nevermind all the other stupid broken stuff in it). 

 

Knight-Titans are fine I agree. The meta has moved on, they're no longer game-distorting. People have figured out how to beat them. New Necrons and Eldar in particular put a big dent in their effectiveness (gauss laughs at their high AV and 4+ invul, Eldar can hit their side AV12 at angles the ion shield can't save them from). They're still strong, and a major crutch in Imperial Super Friends. 

If GW does go ahead and GC the NDK was no other changes, it's survivability goes up a small amount due to resistance to poison and minor resistance to ID. Stomps will increase its offensive output. Any that's it. It's still T6, still S6. Yet, it fits the paradigm of large models going Superheavy.

 

They won't give it GC status. I'd put money on it. You can quote me on this. It's not getting GC status. 

 

Resistance to poison doesn't mean anything. It's the pseudo-Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain that are the main draws. Stomp is fun too, although it can cause you to exist combat at inopportune moments if not done correctly. Its T6, but DK's are never less than S10 AP2 in melee (it's functionally impossible to make them as such, even Jain Zar can only disable one powerfist or greatsword/hammer, it makes no difference). 

 

It doesn't fit any paradigm. DK's are too small, they're nowhere near big enough. Riptide? Maybe, especially the Forge World variants (RIptides is kinda OP enough though, giving it GC status would push it completely over the edge). 

[Prot]

I think the way I run an NDK it is about right price wise. I load them up, like most do, to get the most mileage out of them.

 

However, more and more units just take them down too easily.

 

Darius I wonder are you playing against new D-loaded Eldar? Are you playing against Dark Eldar (the little buggers are always wounding on 4's), and now Gravdex coming out? 

 

I think perception is skewed by meta. I am honest enough to admit that. My meta? I can honestly say my Meta makes me think they cost a bit too much. But I face so much of the stuff that magic bullets 2+ saves it's stupid.  It's not unusual for my NDK's to get wiped by a D shell in a shot. It's not common, but it's quite plausible. This is just an example, but to other metas, I could see someone feeling them as being undercosted.

 

Personally, again this is just me, but I can't even take more than 2. If I take 3 I'm actually hurting myself. I can't grab objectives (spread to thin in an army that really shouldn't do that) plus when I'm facing the D dudes, Grav dudes, Poison dudes, I lose them far too easily.

 

I think the internal balance you speak of (which I agree with) is the fault of the other units not bringing enough to the table. 

 

With every codex that comes out (I"m hearing horror stories of 2+ armies facing AdMech which I havne't played yet as well) that they keep diminishing the unit with every new release.

 

I feel GW is pushing us to a garbage swarm army and away from the mega units. Grav doesn't care if it his 6 hullpoints off of 2 rhinos or kills a Knight. It's all the same to the grav user, but not the victim of those two scenarios. 

[Zhukov]

 

DK's are so undercosted they make Terminators look bad. Our internal balance is a sad joke. If you can't see that I don't know what army you're playing. 

 

Wraithknights are not undercosted. They're broken. Utterly and completely game-wrecking broken. DK's aren't in the same conversation as WK. I'd expect tourney organisers to start banning Craftworld Warhost to prevent WK spam alone (nevermind all the other stupid broken stuff in it). 

 

(RIptides is kinda OP enough though, giving it GC status would push it completely over the edge). 

Dreadknights are well priced. They don't make terminators look bad, terminators aren't very good regardless of Dreadknights existing. Yes the internal balance of the GK codex is terrible, but that does not make Dreadknights undercosted, because a codex does not exist in a vacuum, the effectiveness of its units is decided in relationship to other codices and the rules of the game.

 

Wraitknights aren't utterly and game-wrecking broken. I think you don't know what broken means. Broken is when the complete top 10 of every tournament would consist solely of Eldar with Wraithknights. That's broken. Or do you mean broken for casual play? Maybe, I don't realy care for casual play.

 

Riptides aren't overpowered, again, I don't think you know what overpowered means in regards to competitive play. Riptides are a competitive option.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think the way I run an NDK it is about right price wise. I load them up, like most do, to get the most mileage out of them.

 

However, more and more units just take them down too easily.

 

I disagree. Only certain units. They're still a massive threat to any army in the game, even broken xenos builds. 

Darius I wonder are you playing against new D-loaded Eldar? Are you playing against Dark Eldar (the little buggers are always wounding on 4's), and now Gravdex coming out? 

 

Yep. It's not fun. Eldar are broken. What else is new? 

 

I'll see about Marines. Like I said, I think we have some outs. Don't forget, DK's getting deleted by D-spam doesn't magically make any other build viable or better. Strike spam or mech is still atrocious against Eldar, same for any other build we try. DK spam is just the least bad. 

I think perception is skewed by meta. I am honest enough to admit that. My meta? I can honestly say my Meta makes me think they cost a bit too much. But I face so much of the stuff that magic bullets 2+ saves it's stupid.  It's not unusual for my NDK's to get wiped by a D shell in a shot. It's not common, but it's quite plausible. This is just an example, but to other metas, I could see someone feeling them as being undercosted.

 

How is 205 points overcosted? You've got things round the wrong way. It's Eldar who have absurdly cheap D-weapon access, mobility and threat. They're the undercosted, overpowered stupidity. It doesn't change the fact DK's could be 30-40pts more expensive and still be fine. I'm not gonna ask for nerfs, but its irritating how even our Terminators look bad stacked next to a DK. Why did they buff the one unit our codex didn't need more of? 

Personally, again this is just me, but I can't even take more than 2. If I take 3 I'm actually hurting myself. I can't grab objectives (spread to thin in an army that really shouldn't do that) plus when I'm facing the D dudes, Grav dudes, Poison dudes, I lose them far too easily.

 

Against D-spam and grav cannon, sure I can see that happening. Poison? Please. You have a 2+ save and 4 wounds. You'll tank damage like a pro, and rip DE to shreds. It's their lance spam you'll wanna worry about. 

I think the internal balance you speak of (which I agree with) is the fault of the other units not bringing enough to the table. 

 

Oh definitely. But like I said, DK's used to be 260pts and had pretty mediocre firepower (heavy incinerator was the only decent gun). GW reduced the cost of teleporters massively, re-jigged the two mediocre/bad guns to great and situational, and they have 'Sanctuary' now. All straight upgrades, no downsides. Losing the re-rolls forever greatsword was a forgone conclusion, so that doesn't count. 

 

I've got ideas about how to fix the others. Army-wide Deepstrike for a start. Drop Pods as a dedicated transport for PA units and Dreadnoughts (it's a travesty we don't get them by default). Salvo rules fired into the heart of the sun. Purgators gain Relentless. Etc. GW probably won't do any of that though. 

With every codex that comes out (I"m hearing horror stories of 2+ armies facing AdMech which I havne't played yet as well) that they keep diminishing the unit with every new release.

 

AdMech is a system shock, but they're not an issue for us. We don't field many vehicles, we completely outclass them in melee, and if you skew 2+ saves their only real hard-counter is plasma calivers, which are expensive and mid-range (ie in limited numbers, so focus fire and smart play can neutralise them). AdMech aren't a concern. 

I feel GW is pushing us to a garbage swarm army and away from the mega units. Grav doesn't care if it his 6 hullpoints off of 2 rhinos or kills a Knight. It's all the same to the grav user, but not the victim of those two scenarios. 

 

No, that's not true. GW have from the moment our new codex dropped been pushing Imperial Super Friends. We're not meant to be played solo anymore. Same for Skitarii, Tempestus Scions etc. Even Knight-Titans kinda need Allies. We're meant to be tacked on as an anti-Daemon/psyker solution for a more well-rounded force like Marines or Imperial Guard. 

 

I think Marines are gonna be the final nail in the coffin for pure GK. Eldar basically were, but if the new Grav-spam is a thing, we can't be played solo anymore. We just don't do enough work, and die too easily. I hate admitting it, but we've been Sistered. 

[Prot]

Darius I think you and I disagree so utterly fundamentally on this I'm going to just let it rest with... we completely, utterly do not see eye to eye on this. ;)

[Aethernitas]

 

Dark Angels are pretty much confirmed for this summer. 8th won't be upon us for a long time.

 

Wow, that's fast. I'm still blown away how quick 7th is draining away from us. Doesn't even feel like a real edition at this rate, with everyone getting a redux.

 

Oh come on RD, those are just complains for the sake of complaining. Is it "not a real edition" because they do what players cried for for years or even decades? Because they update Dark Angels, a codex that needs an update even more than Chaos? Sure they still have a lot things on their plate before GW finally arrives in the 21st millenium but at least they took some major steps in the right direction within the last 2 years.

[jeffersonian000]

NDKs HoW at S6. They are S10 only because they of their weapons. And yes, they are definitely going GC.

 

At one codex every two weeks, we'll see teasers for 8th while GW is pushing out new WHFB army books, so around December.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

NDKs HoW at S6. They are S10 only because they of their weapons. And yes, they are definitely going GC.

 

NDKs going GC is never going to happen. They just aren't big enough and the notion that GCs are the new MCs is just silly. Even though everyone complains how unfair the Wraithknight GC upgrade was it was absolutely justified. Undercosted by a big chunk but the model and the fluff already depicted a GC so they got the rules in line. Have you seen how big that thing is? Please stop stating delusional ideas as definite fact. You have no evidence whatsoever.

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

NDKs HoW at S6. They are S10 only because they of their weapons. And yes, they are definitely going GC.

NDKs going GC is never going to happen. They just aren't big enough and the notion that GCs are the new MCs is just silly. Even though everyone complains how unfair the Wraithknight GC upgrade was it was absolutely justified. Undercosted by a big chunk but the model and the fluff already depicted a GC so they got the rules in line. Have you seen how big that thing is? Please stop stating delusional ideas as definite fact. You have no evidence whatsoever.

Hyperbole much?

 

The only reason why the NDK, Riptide, and WK were MCs is because GCs were relegated to Apoc via FW. The WK went GC because it was already one, just released early under 6th rather than 7th as it was intended. Riptids will be going GC. NDKs will be going GC. They are centerpiece models that GW wants to sell more of.

 

SJ

[Zhukov]

 

Poison? Please. You have a 2+ save and 4 wounds. You'll tank damage like a pro, and rip DE to shreds. It's their lance spam you'll wanna worry about.

Denying the relevancy of pratical experience when discussing competitive play is 1 thing, but if you also aren't capable of using math then I think you should stear away from theoryhammer as well. 6 Venoms kill a Dreadknight a turn on average lol. A 2+ save doesn't exactly make you impervious to weapons which do not ignore it ;)

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

No, that's not true. GW have from the moment our new codex dropped been pushing Imperial Super Friends. We're not meant to be played solo anymore. Same for Skitarii, Tempestus Scions etc. Even Knight-Titans kinda need Allies. We're meant to be tacked on as an anti-Daemon/psyker solution for a more well-rounded force like Marines or Imperial Guard. 

 

 

 

^ This.

 

To be honest the previous codex had useful allies baked in and it felt like you could play "pure" GK when really they were not.

 

I am sort of comfortable that playing any Imperial faction "pure" is a decision to play the game in hard-mode in 7th edition and kudos to players who do well with it but we should face the fact in doing that we are choosing to ignore one of the strongest rules our codex has - the allies matrix. Other factions do not have that great Allies matrix and they need to have (and generally do have) options to keep them competitive without it.

 

GK being not very good at dealing with Xenos is a thing. It is not even a thing that upsets me, after all the Knights of Titan should not be wasting their time and ammunition on doing something that is not their job and they are not equipped for it. We are wrecking balls against deamons - who are otherwise a top-tier codex easily capable of winning even the largest tournaments - which is what we should be. If you want a TAC list that can handle Xenos as easily as the denizens of the warp then  bring along some Xenos hunting allies with your GK.  Or bring GK allies for your other Imperial force, your choice.

[Aethernitas]

To be honest the previous codex had useful allies baked in and it felt like you could play "pure" GK when really they were not.

 

I am sort of comfortable that playing any Imperial faction "pure" is a decision to play the game in hard-mode in 7th edition and kudos to players who do well with it but we should face the fact in doing that we are choosing to ignore one of the strongest rules our codex has - the allies matrix. Other factions do not have that great Allies matrix and they need to have (and generally do have) options to keep them competitive without it.

 

GK being not very good at dealing with Xenos is a thing. It is not even a thing that upsets me, after all the Knights of Titan should not be wasting their time and ammunition on doing something that is not their job and they are not equipped for it. We are wrecking balls against deamons - who are otherwise a top-tier codex easily capable of winning even the largest tournaments - which is what we should be. If you want a TAC list that can handle Xenos as easily as the denizens of the warp then  bring along some Xenos hunting allies with your GK.  Or bring GK allies for your other Imperial force, your choice.

 

I agree with most of that.

 

I'm absolutely fine with factions actually reflecting their fluff weaknesses and strength. If the GK codex would have a better internal balance and 1 or 2 unique unit boxes I would even take it as a template for all chapters. I find it comical that a 1000 man faction like a SM chapter gets more coverage than some Xenos races in their entirety. The new release style with big factions seperated into smaller ones really addresses that issue and I hope they push it further to one day provide a more complex allies matrix for more than just the Armies of the Imperium.

 

Grey Knights beeing true to their purpose I totally support. If GW would have done a better job internally balancing the codex providing more valid options they would have struck a perfect balance between general playability (which, yes, is hampered against some armies) and fluff representation. Then again I play GKs for the fluff so others may strongly disagree.

 

The only thing I don't totally agree on is the part about playing pure Imperial armies beeing hardmode. The only reason for the meta beeing the way it is right now (lots of pure Xenos, mostly allied Imperial armies) is the fact that many of the bigger Imperial factions like AM or SM are also some of the oldest codices and looking at the recent changes in army building and power level noone can deny that this shows. It is kinda crazy though considering that AM for example are only about 14 month old. That said Space Marines already seem perfectly capable of holding their own and I daresay the new codex (saturday is approaching fast :D ) will only make them stronger.

[Prot]

Personally, I play an army. A codex. I do not play with models. Personally (again just me) I play "Grey Knighs". When I go outside of that it's something that used to be in the codex or makes a ton of sense to do.

 

To look at codexes that do not stand well enough alone in a tournament environment.... well, that's most of them. I have nothing against allying, I do think it's one of the most broken areas of the game. In an imbalanced system, it just adds to the problem. I think allying is simply GW trying to get you to buy more and excuse poor Codex writing. 

 

That being said I don't hold it against anyone when I see Tau and Ultra's together (Yes I see this a lot) but IG in Drop Pods.... ugh. This is when I think it shows GW really doesn't playtest anything. (I hear they're fixing it with armour save restrictions ina a pod.)

 

But regardless of how you feel about it, honestly... just play what's legal. But I still play Grey Knights... not "models" that fit a criteria. And somehow I do pretty well with that concept. 

[Dread]

Hey guys, I've enjoyed reading this so far and can't really add much. I play Eldar, DE, harlis, necrons, CSM, DA and GK. My over all favorite is my GK. My lists were however born from when the fire turkey first appeared and at the time I had a lot of CSM opponents. Now that the thing has been nuetered , I still play my termie and NDK lists just like before but I am starting to add other troops in finally.  I enjoy just playing pure fluff filled lists and some of my gaming group has started to play for fun again. In order to get this, I had to resort to using some pretty healthy lists from other armies to pound them into remembering it's a game and should be fun.  Hopefully I will get to play some more soon, life bumped in and I haven't got to play a big game since January. We have a local tourney coming up in August for 1750 lists and my GK will be the army I'm taking, win or lose, it will be fun for me.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Darius I think you and I disagree so utterly fundamentally on this I'm going to just let it rest with... we completely, utterly do not see eye to eye on this.

All good :)

Oh come on RD, those are just complains for the sake of complaining. Is it "not a real edition" because they do what players cried for for years or even decades? Because they update Dark Angels, a codex that needs an update even more than Chaos? Sure they still have a lot things on their plate before GW finally arrives in the 21st millenium but at least they took some major steps in the right direction within the last 2 years.

My complaint isn't about the speed of updates persay. DA need a buff if anything. But the speed at which we're accelerating into 8th is annoying. I'm only reasonably familiar with 7th, and soon we'll be transitioning to a new edition. Which, as we all know, could be either minor or majorly different. I'd be happy to stay in 7th for another year at least.

NDKs HoW at S6. They are S10 only because they of their weapons. And yes, they are definitely going GC.

I forget to Hammer of Wrath with them, which is kinda indicative of how meaningless that rule is. A single S6 headbutt at I10 doesn't even vaguely compare to the regular attacks. It's functionally S10 in every way that matters. And no, they're not becoming GC. You can quote me on that.

The only reason why the NDK, Riptide, and WK were MCs is because GCs were relegated to Apoc via FW. The WK went GC because it was already one, just released early under 6th rather than 7th as it was intended. Riptids will be going GC. NDKs will be going GC. They are centerpiece models that GW wants to sell more of.

I disagree. WK has a fair case for it's upgrade (although it's massively undercosted), because it's a huge model that should be in that category. Riptides are pushing it a little bit, but if they price them correctly, I could see a case for it. DK's though? No. They're too small, and if they got pseudo-Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain, I think they'd be pretty broken. They're strong enough as MC's with 2+/4+ and their huge mobility.

To look at codexes that do not stand well enough alone in a tournament environment.... well, that's most of them. I have nothing against allying, I do think it's one of the most broken areas of the game. In an imbalanced system, it just adds to the problem. I think allying is simply GW trying to get you to buy more and excuse poor Codex writing.

Your underestimate GW. It's deliberate dude. I mean, I know it's easy to chalk it up to incompetence. But they've done it across multiple Imperial factions now, and the trend is obvious. You are simply not meant to play a 'pure' one-faction list anymore. You're meant to bro up with Allies if you're Imperial. Space Marines are the flagship faction, so they're getting an upgrade and will probably still be great solo. But GK, Skitarii, Scions, even Knight-Titans...they're not meant to be played by themselves anymore. It's Imperial Super Friends.

That being said I don't hold it against anyone when I see Tau and Ultra's together (Yes I see this a lot) but IG in Drop Pods.... ugh. This is when I think it shows GW really doesn't playtest anything. (I hear they're fixing it with armour save restrictions ina a pod.)

Tau can't go in drop pods anymore because they're not BB in 7th, only Convenience (like pretty much all xenos except Tyranids). I don't think it'll matter too much. Purifiers will still be perfectly legal in empty pods ;)

[Afc24]

I seem to find deep strike first turn against the tau with NSF works well. There is so much 2+ save they have to deal with eventually will get in combat on turn 2 that there biggest threat (shooting the crap out of us) is gone.

My mate plays tau and we have plenty matches so I guess I have learned what to expect.

Elder and crons I haven't faced

[Zhukov]

I played against Necrons and Eldar yesterday, piloted by 2 ETC level players, I will make short batreps and give my thoughts when I can find the time, hopefully tonight. I played with my Psycannon-Strikes-in-Rhinos-GK list. The Necron player fielded a Decurion army including 2 Destroyer Cults (9 Heavy Destroyers, 15 destroyers and 2 Destroyer Lords in total) and the Eldar had 25 Scatter bikes, Farseers, Warlocks and a big horror squad including 3 Heralds along with it functioning as a psychic battery. 

[Prot]

Zhukov that's it?

 

C'mon man. Spill the beans already! You should do batreps.... I try to do one a week. I don't batrep all my games but I find it helps the community get some positive (usually!) flow going about what we should or shouldn't do.

 

I couldn't do a full batrep on my game vs. Captain America build, but I like to share the pain. lol

 

Before you give us conclusions or spoilers, I'm curios what kind of games these were?

[Zhukov]

Zhukov that's it?

 

C'mon man. Spill the beans already! You should do batreps.... I try to do one a week. I don't batrep all my games but I find it helps the community get some positive (usually!) flow going about what we should or shouldn't do.

 

I couldn't do a full batrep on my game vs. Captain America build, but I like to share the pain. lol

 

Before you give us conclusions or spoilers, I'm curios what kind of games these were?

If you read my post, you can see it says that I will do short battlereports of them when I have the time ;) I have time to post now and then on my work as I work from behind a pc, but battle reps I can't really do. 

 

They were games using missions from the upcoming ETC tournament (upcoming being a couple of months). They were against some of the best players of France. Whenever I do a non-tournament battlereport you can assume it is against really strong players fielding competitive lists while using competitive missions. 

[Prot]

Zhukov that's it?

C'mon man. Spill the beans already! You should do batreps.... I try to do one a week. I don't batrep all my games but I find it helps the community get some positive (usually!) flow going about what we should or shouldn't do.

I couldn't do a full batrep on my game vs. Captain America build, but I like to share the pain. lol

Before you give us conclusions or spoilers, I'm curios what kind of games these were?

If you read my post, you can see it says that I will do short battlereports of them when I have the time I have time to post now and then on my work as I work from behind a pc, but battle reps I can't really do.

They were games using missions from the upcoming ETC tournament (upcoming being a couple of months). They were against some of the best players of France. Whenever I do a non-tournament battlereport you can assume it is against really strong players fielding competitive lists while using competitive missions.

Of course I read your post. I am simply urging you to do a batrep sooner rather than later. Your work really isn't as important as Batreps. (just a joke!)

I also never batrep low end competitive games unless I preface them with a reason or let people know it was a one off fun game... which I do frequently play. But for the purposes of figuring out best strategies for fighting the filthy xenos I do prefer to do my batreps using strong players for better examples.

[Emicus]

I agree with the sentiment that; just because something is OP, doesn’t mean you have to break something else to “balance it”. When something is broken, you don’t break everything around you so it’s in the same state. You fix the broken bit.

And I strongly dislike points adjustments of the downward trajectory in order to “balance” old units in comparison to new units. Do I want to have 30 terminators instead of 20 because that makes it more balanced? No I want the “op” units to cost more instead. I don’t want to field an army twice the size to be where I used to be. I’d already build an army twice the size if I wanted to.

“Oh but GW needs army sizes to increase to sell models”... or do they? Because I sure as hell keep buying stuff, but usually not for the same army. When they change too much in an army I like, I just end up shelving it. Exhibit A: Dark Angels. Exhibit B: Chaos Daemons. Exhibit C: Blood Angels. Subjective? OH YES, but also for me it’s been reality.

Or perhaps I should stop playing at such “ludicrously high points levels” and scale it back in direct proportion to GWs deflation (same models cost less points). 1250 point battles baby, it’s where it’s at.

I’d love for GW to NOT ship 8th edition. I’d love for things to actually stabilise for just a minute. Get all the sodding codexes out and FAQ them to smithereens to create something that appears to be halfway balanced. Where’s GWs biggest profits anyway, models or books? I know this is an incredibly naïve wish to have but would it really be that bad….

And make epic/apocalypse it’s own game, or perhaps make “noob w40k for whiny scrubs like Emicus” edition that’s Warhammer without the “Used to be Apocalypse” units. A smaller game for the kiddies. Then w40k can keep going the direction it’s going.

I think they’ve been incredibly inspired by the Ultimate Apocalypse mod for Dawn of War: Soulstorm. If you haven’t tried it, go give it a shot, it will give you some insight.


Don’t get me wrong. Huge models with insanely powerful weapons and rules are GREAT AND WONDERFUL. But it’s not the game I would like to play most of the time. So just give me the option not to without going at the rulebook with a hatchet and having to make my own rules that friends and FLGS will have a harder time accepting. Just an option, right?

/rant off. Going to cool down for a few days.