Cohort Cybernetica

[TheSauce]

I'm not sure if this was covered in the ongoing thread about Kastelan Robots, but I noticed a strange wording issue with what should be an amazing giant robot formation.

 

I've got the digital codex, and under the "Adept of the Cybernetica" rule it seems like having the Tech-Priest Dominus in the unit is actually worse than the normal Kastelan Battle Protocol rule, because you still select a protocol at the end of your turn, but it becomes effective immediately without you being able to use it that turn.

 

So, in the normal Maniple

 

T1 FNP, select Shooting protocol

Enemy turn, FNP still in effect

T2, double shooting

 

with the Tech-Priest

T1 FNP, select shooting

Enemy turn, no FNP

T2, double shooting.

 

The only benefit I can see is that you can switch back to the FNP protocol instantly, which I guess is pretty good, but not nearly as useful as being able to switch to shooting protocols at the start of the turn would be (though there is a relic that does this at the cost of losing FNP for the rest of the game).

 

Can anyone with the hardcover codex confirm the wording on this rule, or am I missing something?

[Frater Cornelius]

To quote what I said in a private conversation:

 

I do not like the Cohort very much because of the instant protocols. Regular protocols have awesome combo potential.

Example 1: I am in position with army and next turn I want to cripple the enemy. I activate double shooting. The enemy will see them as a high priority threat and will try to kill them. However, they still have FnP active to survive the onslaught.

Example 2: I want to charge. I activate double melee. Say, after melee, I immediately want to shoot another unit. So at the end of my turn I activate dakka, but I still have double melee active for the opponents close combat phase, giving me much better chances to finish him off in order to shoot next phase.

Also, while IWND is great, it will not help you once you are dead. Having FnP active during enemy turn while you switch is superior.

[mmimzie]

Yep that's exactly now it be work is the most confounding thing.

 

But if you use the cohort you'll realize you it doesn't matter and the protocols aren't the point of the formation.

 

It's T7 3+ armour and more goodies. All you need to do is find what the enemy has on his board that could threaten your bots and kill that unit in one turn. Then, you can go into shooting mode or what ever you want because you've now won the game.

[Vel'Cona]

Don't have the codex yet; is the wording "may" or "can" swap immediately or is it just a flat statement? If this is a requirement, it may actually be something of a side-nerf to keep the Cohort from being too powerful. IWND is really nice and the Tech-Priest restoring Wounds is pretty rugged, too. The split fire is the icing on the cake for maximum efficiency on the unit, but the whole package comes in at a pretty high cost. I think there's an argument to be made for both Heavy Support and Formation Kastelan Maniples, which will depend largely on what you need the unit to do and how the rest of your list is composed.

On a bit of a side-note, I'm glad that the available options in both AdMech codices (and the IK codex, come to think of it) aren't cut-and-dry as far as take/don't take. There are arguments to be made for most of the unit options, excluding Electro-Priests I guess.

[mmimzie]

Don't have the codex yet; is the wording "may" or "can" swap immediately or is it just a flat statement? If this is a requirement, it may actually be something of a side-nerf to keep the Cohort from being too powerful. IWND is really nice and the Tech-Priest restoring Wounds is pretty rugged, too. The split fire is the icing on the cake for maximum efficiency on the unit, but the whole package comes in at a pretty high cost. I think there's an argument to be made for both Heavy Support and Formation Kastelan Maniples, which will depend largely on what you need the unit to do and how the rest of your list is composed.

On a bit of a side-note, I'm glad that the available options in both AdMech codices (and the IK codex, come to think of it) aren't cut-and-dry as far as take/don't take. There are arguments to be made for most of the unit options, excluding Electro-Priests I guess.

ActuLly I did just find a really nastynrules as written rabbit hole. The rules state that when a new protocol is active at the start or your turn, it replaces the last protocol. However, it does not state what happens should this protocol become active at the end of your.

So a good rules as written argument could be made that you could have double shooting and fnp active at the same time. Furthermore thier are no comas that would allow you to ever take off a protocol.

Furthermore, this is not clarified by the rules of the mask, and the mask only helps you use this cheese even better. As the mask says "change" the protocol of a kastelan robot. If used in conjunction of this discrase of rule writing. You could read move the shooting protocols and turn them into fnp, and the same could be done with the Keele protocol to unbrick your kastelans.

Just saying that's technically what rules as written says .....

[Frater Cornelius]

It says "...every Kastelan Battle Protocol you choose at the end of the turn takes effect immediately...". No choice, unfortunately.

[mmimzie]

I suppose and argument could be made that the protocol are replaced, but according to the rile they are only ever replaceable at the start of your turn

Edit: yes it says they fake effect immediately but it says nothing about them replacing anythkng

[mmimzie]

Actually the rules are extremely clear on all of this. Its actually amazing. The units only add more rules unless it says something like instead. Which, these rules don't say instead

 

So what happens??

 

At the end your turn choose a new prktocol.

 

Due to formation. Rule that protocol is now active. However, there is no rule saying that when ever you ha e a new protocol it is replaced. So you have two protocols (thankfully the rule are so crystal clear on this that they all get cleaned up later.)

 

At the start of your turn you reapply the chosen protocols and all former protocol special rules are then replaced. So Noe you just have the chosen protocol.

 

 

This means you can have your cake and eat it too. Its so much better is outragous.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hmm... I am not sure if that was intended or exploit. Either way, RAW this seems legit.

[DeStinyFiSh]

It has a pro and a con...

If you change from FNP to the shooty or attack protocol it sux, because then you are standin arround just with the new protocol without FNP in the shooting phase.

But when changing back it helps you getting FNP right away.

 

It is worse, but I think people make it worse than it is. The protocols are a nice thing, but you can't go wrong with keeping FNP all the time.

 

I am just thinking if the Mask of Alpha Dominus might be of any use, but I can't come up with something cool. You can change from FNP to shooting in your turn, but then you are not allowed to go back to FNP which is a big meh...

[Commander Dawnstar]

I think what swung me on your interpretation, mmzie, is GW's choice of wording.

 

The Kastelan Battle Protocols rules say:

 

"However, the new Battle Protocol does not become active until the start of your next turn; the unit's current Battle Protocol remains active until then. When a new Battle Protocol becomes active at the start of your turn it immediately replaces the former Battle Protocol's special rules."

 

The Mask of the Alpha Dominus' rules say:

 

"The new Battle Protocol becomes active immediately."

 

Whereas the Cohort Cybernetica's rules say:

 

"... any Kastelan Battle Protocol that you choose at the end of your turn takes effect immediately for all Kastelan Robots in this Formation."

 

An awful lot of things are up for debate about rules as intended and how this sort of this is supposed to work, but rules-as-written there isn't anything to say that a Battle Protocol becomes 'active' immediately when it is chosen by the Cohort Cybernetica. All were told is that the protocol takes effect, which leaves the door open to the reading that it still only truly becomes active, and replaces the former Protocol, at the start of the player's next turn as normal.

[mmimzie]

Nah destiny read my post. We didn't understand how the rules work, but if you read the rule it is very clear, and there is literally no way to read in any other way that Ames the k since without also making a bunch of awwptions about rule maker intentions.

 

TLDR: you have both the new and old protocol on your enemy turn and you only have the new one at the start of your next turn

[Scurvydog]

Wow I did not catch that at all, I am not entirely sold that it is intended, on the other hand the other way to interpret the rules is not really much of a benefit.

That makes the bots way better at preparing for punishment in the opponents phase.

[mmimzie]

Now that i'm home i can add sighted specific details.

 

So as i noted before

1. The formation rule never says instead, and only states that the chosen effect takes effect immediately.

2. The replacing of the protocol according to the rules can only happen at the start of your turn via the protocol rule, or immediately when your "replace" the protocol using the mask.

3. The procotol rule specifies  multiple by saying "special rules"

 

So the only way to make the rules work with out making any assumption at all about the rulers intent. You have to play the rules such that the protocols take affects at the end of your turn giving you both rules, and then you reapply the protocol again at the start of your turn leaving you with only instance of the rule you swaped too. Meaning on enemy turns you can have two protocols and on your turn you may only have 1 active.

 

When we put the cult tactica this will be an important rule to point out as it greatly boost the formations affectiveness. i do believe this is the rules intention as they are so spot on crystal clear as to the how to put the rules together. You simple just apply both rules as being mostly independent of each other, and having little to no interaction with each other at all.

[Terminus]

I think you will struggle to convince people of that interpretation. GW isn't very consistent with their terminology in order to draw such conclusions that "take effect" and "become active" are specific distinct states.

[mmimzie]

Convince who of what. Thier is no other way to make the rules work with out making alot of librities with the wording on the protocols. It specificily states that 'when protocols are activated at the start of your turn, than this replaces your old protocol rules." This isn't about some silly simantic between takes effect and becomes active. It's about these rules in no way saying they override the original function of the rules.

 

So what do you have to do to the rules to make it so they say that you instantly get rid of the old ones? First you'd need to get rid of the line that states "The units current protocols remain active until the start of your next turn."  Already your erasing rules as written, but thiers more. Then you'd ahve to  end all of the protocol rules that say "at the start of your turn" to "at the end of your current turn."

 

So i mean no convincing is required you jsut simply tell them to sit down and read it, and tell you how the rules work with out changing the wordings of the rules.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Convince who of what. Thier is no other way to make the rules work with out making alot of librities with the wording on the protocols. It specificily states that 'when protocols are activated at the start of your turn, than this replaces your old protocol rules." This isn't about some silly simantic between takes effect and becomes active. It's about these rules in no way saying they override the original function of the rules.

So what do you have to do to the rules to make it so they say that you instantly get rid of the old ones? First you'd need to get rid of the line that states "The units current protocols remain active until the start of your next turn." Already your erasing rules as written, but thiers more. Then you'd ahve to end all of the protocol rules that say "at the start of your turn" to "at the end of your current turn."

So i mean no convincing is required you jsut simply tell them to sit down and read it, and tell you how the rules work with out changing the wordings of the rules.

So Turn 1 you start with FNP.

At the end you change to the shooting one, FNP still in place.

Since they do not start at your turn, because they have at the end of turn 1, FNP will not be replaced. So still you have got FNP and double shooting. Then you choose the CC one at the end of turn 2.

Same story as above, nothing will be replaced since no protocol started at the beginning of your turn.

This makes them absolutely ultra in turn 3, when they have double the shots, double the attacks AND FNP

Ah, and also they are not allowed to move or to shoot, but that's no big issue

I still think this is absolutely not how it is meant to work.

I am sure if more people interpret it like this, there will be a fake saying that only on can be active at a time and will be replaced when activating another one.

[Commander Dawnstar]

This is where I'd direct you to my earlier post on the potential difference between Protocols being activated and taking effect, DeStinyFiSh.

 

In the event that you're correct, and changing Protocol via the Cohort Cybernetica would immediately end the previous Protocol, there shouldn't be a difference in the language used for the rules of both the Cohort Cybernetica and the Mask of the Alpha Dominus as they both allow the selection of new Protocols outside of the normal sequence. The Mask makes it very clear that the chosen Protocol "becomes active immediately", the term "active" appearing four times in the rules for Kastelan Battle Protocols, but the Cohort tells us that the chosen Protocol "takes effect immediately."

 

I'm still hardly certain that this is how the rules are supposed to work, but isn't that difference in wording enough to suggest that a Protocol chosen by the Cohort Cybernetica at the end of the turn might not be considered "active" at that point?

 

By default:

 

• Aegis Protocol active at the start of turn one
• New Battle Protocol chosen at the end of turn one
• New Battle Protocol does not become active until the start of turn 2; Aegis Protocol remains active until the start of turn 2
• New Battle Protocol becomes active at the start of turn 2 and immediately replaces Aegis Protocol

 

With the Mask of the Alpha Dominus

 

• Aegis Protocol active at the start of turn one
• New Battle protocol chosen at any time
• New Battle Protocol becomes active immediately, replacing (and destroying) Aegis Protocol

 

In the Cohort Cybernetica (maybe):

 

• Aegis Protocol active at the start of turn one
• New Battle Protocol chosen at the end of turn one
• New Battle Protocol "takes effect immediately," conferring its bonus, but does not become 'active', Aegis Protocol remaining active until the start of turn 2
• New Battle Protocol becomes active at the start of turn 2 and immediately replaces Aegis Protocol

[pompeyladbfp]

I'm going with the it takes effect immediately and not trying to make my opponent want to punch me in the face for trying it on.

it does have its disadvantages such as not getting FNP in opponents turn, but imagine knowing you are about to be charged next turn (say a all combat wolfstar is facing off against you) and you select double attacks... meaning you get them in your opponents turn.

[mmimzie]

Its RAW if you have no choice. Doing anything else would involve rewriting the rule. I'm pretty sure it'll be FAQ that you have double protocols on the enemy turn. It actually makes a lot of since that a tech priest dominus would be so skilled as to get the protocols online before the old protocols have even been shut down. Maybe even over clocking the ram kastelan ram for a little bit.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I'm pretty sure it'll be FAQ that you have double protocols on the enemy turn.

I wouldn't hold your breath. The most recent FAQs listed on the Games Workshop site are from January and are for the Dark Eldar, Orks and Space Wolves. There have been seven Codexes released between those for the Dark Eldar and Cult Mechanicus and not one of them has received any errata documents yet.

[mmimzie]

 

 

I'm pretty sure it'll be FAQ that you have double protocols on the enemy turn.

I wouldn't hold your breath. The most recent FAQs listed on the Games Workshop site are from January and are for the Dark Eldar, Orks and Space Wolves. There have been seven Codexes released between those for the Dark Eldar and Cult Mechanicus and not one of them has received any errata documents yet.

Lol I didn't say any time soon. Plus as I've said its RAW which baring any FAQ is what the rule is specially in a tournament setting. So I don't mind if they take thier time