A (not so) Humble Look at Militarum Tempestus Thus Far

[Master Antaeus]

Okay, so I’ve been playing these guys a couple of months and here is what I’ve learned.

 

I just wrote 5 paragraphs itemizing why MT is a substandard army. I deleted them because they weren’t productive, they were just bellyaching. The fact is, you can run Militarum Tempestus alone, especially at small points, they’re actually quite good. As games get bigger, some glaring gaps appear in the MT’s ability to wage war, gaps that can only be addressed by reaching out to your Imperial brothers and sisters.

 

I do have to get one thing out of the way. Orders. Militarum Tempestus has their own orders and their orders are basically terrible. The orders themselves aren’t bad, but to do an order, so much has to be going right as to make it highly unlikely that you will ever be in a position to tactically benefit from an order. You have to have a command squad and a Scion squad dismounted in a position where the opponent cannot retaliate with shooting or assault, lest you lose both; a highly unlikely scenario. Your command squad will cease to exist soon as your opponent looks at it funny and the general leadership of your guys means if you want orders to be reliable, you will be paying 25-40 points for voxcasters so you can issue, at most 2 orders per turn. Unacceptable. You want 10 sniper shots? Ally ratlings. They’re cheaper than a command squad.

 

On that note, if you’re planning on playing Astra Militarum with a lot of Tempestus, you are in a much better position. A company command squad can take carapace armor, be mounted in a chimera AND can issue TWO orders from that chimera. The orders are generally better as well. No cool sniping, but a bunch of abilities that will save your bacon. I would much rather have an extra shot with FSR,SRF or be able to shoot and then run after a deep strike (FFTE). You can bring the heat with orders like bring it down and fire on my target and if your guys flee, you can always get them back into the fight. This will draw your opponent’s attention, but a Chimera can handle that, a Taurox prime cannot. Note that your Scions will lose Objective Secured. More on this below.

 

But is that all there is? What do we do that, say, Space Marines can’t do? Keep reading.

 

Maximizing what your army does well

 

-Transports for e’rbody: As I stated in my Taurox review, I like the Taurox Prime with Gatling gun and autocannon. It gives its squad some crowd control and it can hunt light vehicles, including other transports. Often the difference between life and death for a Scion squad is the other guy getting shot out of his transport first. The nice thing about our transports is that they always punch above their weight. The other nice thing about the way our transports and troops interact is that you can always field the transports empty and deep strike the troops if there is a lack of terrain to hid behind. As long as you can keep your transports out of sight for a turn, as your troops start dropping, you can race your transports up to support them and no one has to worry about having an accident and having to walk halfway across the board with a gun whose range is frankly pathetic.

 

-Suicide squads: Every player who has ever been treated roughly by a land raider knows that the hard counter for a land raider (or any tough vehicle) is the venerable meltagun. With deep striking units, you don’t even have to approach it, you can just land next to it and kill it. Sure. The only problem is that you only get 2 melta shots to kill that land raider, and 2 is all you’re going to get because most opponent’s will not leave such a threat alone for an entire turn. 2 melta shots will not destroy a land raider. 4 melta shots will trouble a land raider. That’s why there are command squads.

 

I can see you balking. “But Master Antaeus," You wail, "Command squads should be supporting their line squads, giving orders!” Command squads suck at giving orders, and our orders just aren’t that good. A Prime gets a single attempt each turn that has about a 60% chance of success in a line squad that still has its Tempestor. Distance yourself from the idea that a command squad is anything but 4 non-troop meltaguns that can twinlink themselves without external support. Now your squad can land, give the order to twinlink its four meltaguns and that land raider will be a lot less bother. I field 2 such squads and together, they can put pretty serious hurt on big pieces such as wraithknights, Imperial Knights, riptides and baneblades. When they land correctly, of course.

 

-Speed: This army does speed really well, and you must ruthlessly exploit that speed to be a tyrant about controlling the engagement so you can slice away at the tender parts of his opponent’s army and force him way out of position to retaliate. In this, you must demonstrate the perfect balance of patience and aggression, lest your army assaulted to death. Make no mistake, Militarum Tempestus will make you a better player.

 

Traps to avoid:

 

-Valkyries: Valks are way cool. Who doesn’t enjoy the idea of an entire army of air cav swooping in to fast-rope down and save the day? The thing is, your Scions can already deep strike anywhere they want. Putting them in a Valk puts them at risk of that Valk getting shot down with them inside. Additionally, you will always have to make a choice between putting your Valk where you want it for shooting or putting it where you need it for troops. Also, do not think for a moment that a Valkyrie is any kind of serious air defense. Valks are amazing for allies, not so amazing for Scions themselves.

 

-Volleyguns: I tried so hard to like the volleygun, I really did. On fast vehicles, they’re okay, because they always get their four shots. Fortunately, the only vehicles you can get them on are fast vehicles. The problem with them on troops is that you have to stand still to use them and a Scion standing still is a dead scion. That means you are paying meltagun points for a lasgun that has 1 more strength and gets 3 extra inches of range for double tap. Unacceptable.

 

-Commissars: If I told you that you could pay points to kill your own guys, you’d say "Of course I love plasmaguns, Master Antaeus!" But then you’d see my face and realize I was talking about something counterproductive for your army. Commissars are great for keeping Astra Militarum in line, and really terrible for keeping Tempestus in line. At the points you lose if he executes someone is almost like him flipping out in an IG squad and offing three people. If you were in that squad, you’d frag him and then agree on your story with your remaining squadmates. He has to buy carapace armor and can’t even deep strike; pretty sad for a guy who supposedly went to college with the rest of your army. Unacceptable.

 

-Orders (see above)

 

Allies and you:

 

I’ve done several allies articles, so this will be a very general list of what you should look for when you start splicing allies into your army. I’m going to throw some Xenos units in there for good measure, but you’re a lot better off sticking to the Imperial ones.

 

Cheap Objective Holders

 

Scions suck at standing still and you need a unit that will cost you next to nothing, doesn't require babysitting and will squat on an objective or, ideally, a unit that is fairly cheap, but can still contribute to the fight. Examples include Space Marine sniper Scouts, Inquisitorial Henchmen, Skitarii Rangers, Fire Warriors, Kroot Snipers (seriously, Kroot are awesome), Eldar Rangers, Astra Militarum Infantry (not conscripts because they need support). Less ideal examples are Tactical Marines, Retributors, any Grey Knights.

 

Trap units: There really aren’t any armies that are bad at this (heh, except us), just some that do it a lot better than others. Most armies have some kind of objective secured troop choice that you can park far from battle and then kit out to contribute.

 

Big Guns

 

Scions have no big guns and can find parking lots, firebases and occupied fortifications a tough nut to crack. You want a unit that is mobile and has enough board presence to force your opponent to ignore the Scions on his flanks. Ideal examples are Leman Russ (any except the stupid Eradicator and Exterminator), Imperial Knights (heh), Defiler, Fire Prism, Hammerhead, Exorcist. I will put the Thunderfire cannon here, but just know that this is a very complicated piece and that I will explore it much further in a later post.  As I have pointed out before, point for point, there is nothing that creates a bigger, more destructive spectacle than the Imperial Knight, but you've been reading these reviews, so you know that.

 

Trap Units: Before my veteran readers get their underwear all twisted, I should point out that this review is written entirely from the perspective of a Tempestus player and that all of these vehicles are completely functional within their own factions. Except the Leman Russ Exterminator and Eradicator. Those just suck.

 

-Anything on a chimera platform (Manticore, Deathstrike, Hydra, Basilisk, more exotic Forge World vehicles): All of these are squishy and require babysitting, forcing you to assign bodies to keep it safe. Good in armies that have lots of bodies, not good for you.

 

-Land Raiders: A Land Raider is a transport for assault units such as will never appear in a Tempestus codex (if there ever is another one. I suspect we will get rolled back into IG) Even the Land Raider Mars (the basic one) doesn’t have the volume of fire to justify its points. Great in assaulty armies, not great for you.

 

-Predators (unless they’re fast): Predators are cheap, disposable light tanks that have light tank weapons they can only fire sporadically if they move because GW has no idea that a tank standing still is dead. A fast predator can keep up its weight of fire and gives you lots of options of both targets and ways to hide its pathetic side armor.

 

-Demolishers (unless they’re fast) A demolisher is a light tank that thinks it’s a siege tank. Come to the guard, where we specialize in siege tanks. It can move and fire its comically big gun, but its range is so short that you will need it to be at knife-fight range to get any benefit out of it. At that range, the chances your opponent has a weapon it its side arc that can kill it begin to approach 100%. Fast Demolishers can benefit you here because you have more options for where to place them and can pull them back if you end up with your butt hanging out.

 

-Flyers: Flyers have their place and can really help a Tempestus army, but this is not their job. A canny opponent who doesn’t have a lot of anti-air will just ignore your flyers, no matter how much havoc they cause. The primary job of this unit is to clear buildings and to take the heat off your squishy Tauroxes and squishier Scions. Flyers are, oddly, too mobile to be of much use beyond the turn after they come in unless they have vector dancer. Even then, your opponent is likely to ignore any flyer you bring, hoping he can kill enough of your troops to make up the difference before the game ends.

 

Assault

 

It's a good bet that, if you’ve played more than a game or two, you have run afoul of an enemy unit that is in no way meant to assault anything turning your precious Scions to mulch without much trouble in close combat. Honestly, there probably aren’t enough allies in the world to make the Ordo Tempestus suck less in assault, but if you do succeed in doing so, your opponent will seriously begin to question whether someone slipped him (or much less likely her) some crazy pills. Without worrying about points, you can park pretty much any IC from an Imperial codex in here and make a difference. Also, try to imagine the social tension of sitting in a Taurox with Marneus Calgar crammed in next to you asking if you’re comfortable.  This is not ideal as it would be Marneus Calgar, not your squad who is winning close combats.  Also, your Scions are expensive enough without grossly overblown named characters making it worse. Here are a few that are actually a decent bargain.

 

-Inquisitors: 55 points gets you a 3 wound carapace guy with a bolt pistol and a force weapon.  Inquisitors bring lots more to the table than that, but you can kit them to taste.

 

-Astra Militarum Advisors: a Primaris Psyker and a Ministorum Priest can actually beef your tender tempestus guys up pretty nicely, albeit for more than a well-dressed Inquisitor.

 

-Space Marine Librarian/Rune Priest/Equivalent: If you allied Scouts, then you probably took a cheap as chip HQ and that HQ was probably the Librarian.  Don't park him with your sniper scout on the ridge, put him in a Taurox and let him help your squads.  You probably won't regret it.

 

-Space Marine Chaplain/Wolf Priest/Equivalent: The next cheapest HQ is the space marine chaplain and he comes stock with a power weapon and a 4++.  He also bestows fearless and it is hilarious to imagine the poor Scions having to ride around with this hopped up youth groupie in power armor.

 

-Canoness: A Canoness is a certified badass and her riding around with a bunch of Scions is slightly more believable than, say, Marneus Calgar, if that sort of thing bothers you.

 

You may have noticed a recurring theme with the assault help and that is...

 

Psychic Powers

 

Militarum Tempestus natively have nothing going on in the psychic phase, except to get roasted by the opponent's psychic powers.  If you're already allying Militarum Tempestus, they get lots of Psykers, but if you're going the Skitarii, Sisters or Knights route, you are probably better off getting an Inquisitor.  He is the smallest investment for a psyker you can get and he's no slouch at range or in close combat.  Inquisitors are the bananas to the Tempestus peanut butter (trust me, it works in Memphis). 

 

That about wraps it up for now.  I will continue to post as I learn more.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Knights I agree with, the orders not so much. Then again, I really only ever use the twin linked and sniper orders. For power armor, wolf scouts are probably the best, since they're snipers hitting on 3's. Better still would be a couple of vindicare assassins (2 separate dets). Inquisitors would be great, a close combat scout squad would be perfect as a suicide melee threat.

 

I intend to use a group of my Dark angels, since the Libby (with power field generator) would confer a 4++ to all dudes within 6 inches. And I'd be taking some ravenwing, to provide some cavalry, and my fliers for anti tank help. 

[Kontakt]

Personally, I run a pair of knights with my scions. A knight paladin to run straight towards the enemy vehicles, and a knight crusader for support. With all that firepower, they obliterate massed infantry and handle vehicles quite well. Currently, my scions just do the mopping up, mostly with plasma guns and grenade launchers (usually only 1 squad with 2 melta). Your meta may vary, but this works quite well on a concentrated enemy.

[march10k]

Well...you're right about the "not so humble" bit...

 

 

 

Militarum Tempestus has their own orders and their orders are basically terrible

 

Usually, someone who says something is useless just hasn't figured out what it's useful for...I find the twinlinking order exceptionally useful...a command squad with four twinlinked plasma guns is death incarnate.

 

 

 

You have to have a command squad and a Scion squad dismounted in a position where the opponent cannot retaliate with shooting or assault, lest you lose both; a highly unlikely scenario.

Interesting that you would write this, willfully ignoring the fact that there's no line squad needed in this scenario, then turn around a few lines later and contradict yourself with:

 

 

 

Now your squad can land, give the order to twinlink its four meltaguns and that land raider will be a lot less bother.

Oh, so orders are actually useful, and you don't need some arcane geometric alignment of the stars where you have a line squad in position to make good use of the order without being vulnerable to return fire...of course, as you point out a second later, deepstriking scattering melta, with its 6" effective range, isn't really reliable...which is why that self-twin-linking command squad should have plasma, not melta..."will it blend" at 12 inches, effective at 24...you can afford a few inches of scatter!

 

 

 

“But Master Antaeus," You wail, "Command squads should be supporting their line squads, giving orders!” 

Uh...no.  Command squads are self-twinlinking suicide cruise missiles.  They most definitely do not fill the same role as IG command squads!

 

 

 

Valkyries

 

Valks aren't really there as transports...if you think of them that way, then of course you don't value them.  Valks are there for rocket pods, the only horde management system our codex has that's really worth writing home about.  In the context of the air cav formation, I guess you have to arrive in style...but really, there's not as much contradiction as you think between setting up for a shot and choosing a flight path that passes over your drop zone...at least on the turn of arrival, since you have your entire board edge to work with.  Also, the risk of getting shot out of the sky while full of troops is real, but not as common as you suggest.  It really only comes into play if you are playing against heavy skyfire with interceptor or you are foolish enough not to jump out of a perfectly good airplane before it gets not-so-perfectly-good-but-with-improved-ventilation.  To sum up, disembarking from the valk on the turn of arrival mitigates the concerns with lining up for a shot and the concern with getting shot down full of troops.  But the main thing is that valks are fire support first, transport second.

 

 

 

Commissars

 

First, the rule of cool.  Second, they're 25 flippin' points.  Not much to complain about!  Third, you take one as your warlord (if playing pure, otherwise, for the love of the emperor, make something else your primary and get a warlord who might live past turn three!) to keep from babying your command squad, whose real role should be to go out in a blaze of glory...and a commissar stashed in a bunker with ten babysitters isn't the most terrible warlord choice if you're concerned about denying that Warlord VP.

 

 

 

Ideal examples are Leman Russ (any except the stupid Eradicator and Exterminator)

 

Are you kidding?  The eradicator is fantastic.  Cover-denying pieplates that wound almost everything in the game on 2+ are...not "stupid."

 

 

 

Except the Leman Russ Exterminator and Eradicator. Those just suck.

 

...and we're back with comments that are usually made by people who haven't figured out how to use the item in question.

 

 

 

-Anything on a chimera platform (Manticore, Deathstrike, Hydra, Basilisk, more exotic Forge World vehicles): All of these are squishy and require babysitting, forcing you to assign bodies to keep it safe. Good in armies that have lots of bodies, not good for you.

 

Well...this is becoming a theme..."I didn't have immediate and brilliant success with this model, it must suck."  So funny to hear that an AV12 platform is squishy and requires babysitting from the perspective of an army fielding nothing but AV11...

 

 

 

It (Demolisher) can move and fire its comically big gun, but its range is so short that you will need it to be at knife-fight range to get any benefit out of it. At that range, the chances your opponent has a weapon it its side arc that can kill it begin to approach 100%.

 

Ah, the comical voice of inexperience.  30" is not knife-fighting range on a table where it's only 36" from the front of your deployment zone to the back of your enemy's deployment zone.  So...you're saying as soon as I drive 6" out of my deployment zone, hell, I haven't even reached the centerline, my shots reach halfway through your deployment zone, so I must be exposing my paper-thin AV13 flanks to your devastating antitank fire...in fact it's nearly 100% certain that I'm toast.  Well, crap, I've lost the game before it even started if it's that dangerous to even leave my deployment zone!

 

Psychic Powers

 

 

I doesn't needs them.  If you do, though...I'd recommend a GKL with five strikes...that's gold-plated daemon insurance, and it's really good melee support, to boot.  Did I mention they deepstrike?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

My thematic army doesn't really permit the use of tanks, but I use Chimeras. Valkyries are gunships, though I typically take them with Elysians, because they're cheaper and because I can bring it in first turn. 

 

Still the Valk is for suppression. The orders are very useful, I might argue that they're better than the standard AM orders. Giving your guys fleet is great, being able to get them a re roll on their run move, is invaluable. Crusader gets you an extra d6 to determine run moves (pick the highest), and d3 to your sweeping advance roll, meaning that you can become deadly in combat. 

 

Giving your guys preferred enemy is also useful, rerolling 1's is tremendously useful. and last, granting rending against vehicles and MC's is pretty useful too. That can bring down light vehicles, especially since it gets you AP2, and you keep the weapon profile, so at 9 inches (with 5 HSLG) you can put out 10 AP2 hits. You also get an extra d3 to armor pen against vehicles, which can turn plasma guns into superheavy killers, It can also turn HSVG's destructive. Basically the orders are great, you just have to know how and when to employ them. 

 

Some psyker support wouldn't hurt, but it's not exactly needed either. 

 

Also, I thought the Demolisher cannon was 24 inches?

[Master Antaeus]

For March 10k:  I shall address your quote storm with a quote storm quoting your quote storm, just without the fancy HTML.

 

Militarum Tempestus has their own orders and their orders are basically terrible

 

Usually, someone who says something is useless just hasn't figured out what it's useful for...I find the twinlinking order exceptionally useful...a command squad with four twinlinked plasma guns is death incarnate.

 

-Actually, the word I used was 'terrible'.  I reserve words like 'useless' for hellfire missiles on flyers.  Militarum Tempestus have (I didn't look) something like 5 orders.  Two of them are assault/run orders and are useless.  The sniper order is okay--if you can use it on a Scions squad, which as I stated is hazardous to both Command and Scion squad, but neither will generate the kind of wounds you need to kill even a middling monstrous creature.  To kill, say an unwounded carnifex in cover, you would need two full units plus change, which means you would need two Command squads, etc.  Preferred enemy is okay with plasma guns.  It helps the anemic HSLG generate maybe one more wound per shooting of a full unit.  The Twin-link option is within striking distance of good, but again, you're looking at 3 wounds, tops on an MEQ squad in cover, 5 if you have two plasma guns.  Then they get their cover.  So, 2 useless, 2 two okay, 1 good = terrible, especially compared to other comparable rules such as Acts of Faith, Doctrina Imperatives, Astra Militarum Orders and psychic powers.

 

You have to have a command squad and a Scion squad dismounted in a position where the opponent cannot retaliate with shooting or assault, lest you lose both; a highly unlikely scenario.

Interesting that you would write this, willfully ignoring the fact that there's no line squad needed in this scenario, then turn around a few lines later and contradict yourself with:

 

Now your squad can land, give the order to twinlink its four meltaguns and that land raider will be a lot less bother.

Oh, so orders are actually useful, and you don't need some arcane geometric alignment of the stars where you have a line squad in position to make good use of the order without being vulnerable to return fire...of course, as you point out a second later, deepstriking scattering melta, with its 6" effective range, isn't really reliable...which is why that self-twin-linking command squad should have plasma, not melta..."will it blend" at 12 inches, effective at 24...you can afford a few inches of scatter!

 

-As stated above, the TL order is good--but it endangers two expensive units that can't defend themselves, though I would argue that preferred enemy would be better in the scenario you described since you get to re-roll gets hot, and those annoying 1's to wound.  The thing is, MT doesn't have (as much) trouble killing infantry.  They do have trouble killing tanks as their only ground transport typically won't survive to get close enough to kill a heavy tank such as a land raider.  Meltaguns only need 6" on land raiders and monoliths, everything else, you can afford to be out of melta range with 4 of them and the TL order--this covers something MT aren't very good at--back field tank killers.  Again, I never said orders were useless, just terrible.  This strategy mitigates the need to endanger two units (or more, with transports involved) and covers a weakness of the codex.

 

 

“But Master Antaeus," You wail, "Command squads should be supporting their line squads, giving orders!” 

Uh...no.  Command squads are self-twinlinking suicide cruise missiles.  They most definitely do not fill the same role as IG command squads!

 

-Calm down.  I agree with you.

 

Valkyries

 

Valks aren't really there as transports...if you think of them that way, then of course you don't value them.  Valks are there for rocket pods, the only horde management system our codex has that's really worth writing home about.  In the context of the air cav formation, I guess you have to arrive in style...but really, there's not as much contradiction as you think between setting up for a shot and choosing a flight path that passes over your drop zone...at least on the turn of arrival, since you have your entire board edge to work with.  Also, the risk of getting shot out of the sky while full of troops is real, but not as common as you suggest.  It really only comes into play if you are playing against heavy skyfire with interceptor or you are foolish enough not to jump out of a perfectly good airplane before it gets not-so-perfectly-good-but-with-improved-ventilation.  To sum up, disembarking from the valk on the turn of arrival mitigates the concerns with lining up for a shot and the concern with getting shot down full of troops.  But the main thing is that valks are fire support first, transport second.

 

-I have done that, but I find that if I'm deep striking my guys anyway, tying two units to one reserves roll in order to endanger and limit both is not ideal.  Why not just deep strike your guys and be done with it?  There is literally no benefit to putting Scions in a Valk unless it's as an insurance policy to go into hover mode in the late game and grab an objective; but then you could just grab the objective with the Valk.  No, it's better in every way to run the Valk alone and deep strike the squad, unless you have that stupid formation.

 

 

Commissars

 

First, the rule of cool.  Second, they're 25 flippin' points.  Not much to complain about!  Third, you take one as your warlord (if playing pure, otherwise, for the love of the emperor, make something else your primary and get a warlord who might live past turn three!) to keep from babying your command squad, whose real role should be to go out in a blaze of glory...and a commissar stashed in a bunker with ten babysitters isn't the most terrible warlord choice if you're concerned about denying that Warlord VP.

 

-I wasn't going to address this one, but actually, you make a good point: ten babysitters + commissar in a bunker is, without any upgrades at all, 165 points.  It isn't moving, it isn't shooting, it isn't drawing fire, with our pathetic range it certainly isn't projecting fire and there's a chance he'll kill someone important.  I can pay 25 points to get this ability?  Unacceptable.  I'm okay putting my warlord in danger, I would just like him (or her) to have even a small chance of surviving that danger.  There are better uses for 25 or 165 points that actually generate enemy casualties and can all deep strike.

 

 

Ideal examples are Leman Russ (any except the stupid Eradicator and Exterminator)

 

Are you kidding?  The eradicator is fantastic.  Cover-denying pieplates that wound almost everything in the game on 2+ are...not "stupid."

 

-It wouldn't be stupid if it were the only option, or if I only ever fought 4+save armies that rely on cover.  It relies on too many things you need him to do.  Also, while it might be a nice tank on paper, its primary job is killing infantry, something we already do pretty well.  If I'm allying a tank, it needs to be a tank that does something I don't do well, or does so much better than me at such an efficient price that it becomes attractive again (Punisher, Executioner).  LR Exterminators don't even have the ignores cover thing going for them.  Since the Hydra came out in plastic, a 4 shot autocannon is unacceptable on a main battle tank that costs the same points as two Hydras.  Also, after 3rd ed, I have never seen a single example of either one on a table in several hundred games, and several hundred non-playing visits to the game store.  Granted, the Eradicator didn't exist until 4th and the only reason anyone took an Exterminator before that was because Space Wolves could field them and the largest model you would ever see on the table was a Wraithlord.  A few things have changed since then.

 

 

-Anything on a chimera platform (Manticore, Deathstrike, Hydra, Basilisk, more exotic Forge World vehicles): All of these are squishy and require babysitting, forcing you to assign bodies to keep it safe. Good in armies that have lots of bodies, not good for you.

 

Well...this is becoming a theme..."I didn't have immediate and brilliant success with this model, it must suck."  So funny to hear that an AV12 platform is squishy and requires babysitting from the perspective of an army fielding nothing but AV11...

 

-Never said they sucked.  I said they weren't good for Scions because they require babysitting and Scions are terrible babysitters.  I used Manticores (and honestly, I think they're better than basilisks unless you're going to base your whole army around artillery) all the time to break up parking lots and discourage bottlenecks; I'm well aware of what they're good for, but with side armor 10, again, there are better, more resilient and reliable uses for your points if you are allying in big guns.  Why drop 170 (or 180) for a manticore and then another 130 (no upgrades) on a unit that can't project fire to keep meltas and fast movers from getting close?  For the points, you might as well get a pair of tanks which are much more resilient and self-sufficient.

 

 

It (Demolisher) can move and fire its comically big gun, but its range is so short that you will need it to be at knife-fight range to get any benefit out of it. At that range, the chances your opponent has a weapon it its side arc that can kill it begin to approach 100%.

 

Ah, the comical voice of inexperience.  30" is not knife-fighting range on a table where it's only 36" from the front of your deployment zone to the back of your enemy's deployment zone.  So...you're saying as soon as I drive 6" out of my deployment zone, hell, I haven't even reached the centerline, my shots reach halfway through your deployment zone, so I must be exposing my paper-thin AV13 flanks to your devastating antitank fire...in fact it's nearly 100% certain that I'm toast.  Well, crap, I've lost the game before it even started if it's that dangerous to even leave my deployment zone!

 

-Actually, I made a mistake here.  I said Demolisher when I meant Vindicator.  I have edited what I wrote.  Demolishers can take the heat at the range of its main guns and have excellent side armor.  Thank you.

 

Psychic Powers

 

I doesn't needs them.  If you do, though...I'd recommend a GKL with five strikes...that's gold-plated daemon insurance, and it's really good melee support, to boot.  Did I mention they deepstrike?

 

They're pretty good.  I may (will) do a review of Grey Knights as allies, but honestly, they can shoot and assault, I would put them in an FA Taurox to anchor an advance. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I think we're getting hung up on semantics. March brings up good points, while Master Anteus is being forced to clarify exactly what he is meaning to say. 

 

March is looking for the "so what?" He's an intel guy, that's what he cares about. When I gave a weather briefing, no body cared that Ceilings were 200 feet vertical visibility, and that visibility was 400 meters. That meant nothing, "so what?" : pilots can't fly, you no air assault.

 

Master Anteus, you're on to something good here, it just needs a bit of refining. Obviously opinions are going to differ so not everyone is going to be happy, but with a bit of tweaking, you can at least get people to see where you're drawing your conclusions from.  

[WarriorFish]

Indeed, no war was ever one by arguing in the command bunker. Feedback is good, as it helps improve an article and therefore the community as a whole. What doesn't help is excessive quoting or being impolite. Worse still is it upsets the commissariat and nobody wants that...

 

If it helps I find it best not to speak in absolutes unless you can back that up with strong reasons. While it is of course all your own opinion it is best to make that very clear to avoid crossed wires.

[march10k]

 

 

Also, I thought the Demolisher cannon was 24 inches?

It is...but the tank gets to move 6" before shooting...

 

 

Erm, WF....what are we to do when responding to a dozen separate points in a novel, if not, as the OP calls it, "quotestorm"?  I guess an alternative is to quote the original text and insert comments line by line in a different color...but I'd consider that rude, and don't consider quoting rude...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

 

Also, I thought the Demolisher cannon was 24 inches?

It is...but the tank gets to move 6" before shooting...

 

Ok, I see what you're getting at now.

[captain sox]

When I gave a weather briefing, no body cared that Ceilings were 200 feet vertical visibility, and that visibility was 400 meters.

This gets my attention as an aviator, trust me.....

[march10k]

When I gave a weather briefing, no body cared that Ceilings were 200 feet vertical visibility, and that visibility was 400 meters.

This gets my attention as an aviator, trust me.....

What mountain?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

When I gave a weather briefing, no body cared that Ceilings were 200 feet vertical visibility, and that visibility was 400 meters.

This gets my attention as an aviator, trust me.....

What mountain?

I've heard that one...

Also Sox, it's not the pilots that don't get it (Still doesn't stop pilots from asking for their FWB) it's the infantry dudes that are looking for a ride to work that don't get it...