Grav-Experiment - Pipes - Purgs - Assassinorum - and ObSec

[Prot]

So I had a couple of games, and wanted to just relay some experiences quickly without giant batreps....So in nor particular orded here are my thoughts of the day:

 

 

 

1. The Pipes! (and the Purgs) Yes I had to try it. I have to try everything, no matter how it looks, and this was interesting with a base setup of a Las Razorback on one end of the Pipes and a 5 man Purgation squad on the other end with 4 Incinerators. 

 

On a scale of one 1-5 I'd give it a solid 3. It's not something I'd consider a competitive idea and I did not go into the game thinking I'm here to win, so I was willing to accept the results of my experimental unit with interest. The thing I realized is using a Rhino would have been similar, not exact, but similar results. 

 

The Purgation squad was never heavily fired at because it was never seen as a threat compared to the rest of the army. So the 4+ was moot except for one surprising thing... the Razorback. It had been a long time (months?) since I put a razorback in a list. Behind the Pipes it drew a lot of fire and with nightfight in the game, then continuing forward with a normal 'pipe' save it was clearly benefting from this and made me think of doing a mini-razorback line for las but I would probably not pick it up again.

 

If I wanted a gun line in any fashion even the pipes are cheap, I'd go back to the Aegis and add the function of Comms or a Quad.

(It wasn't horrible though, I did have one turn of quad flaming 10 guys to death which was fun... if you're into that sort of thing.)

 

2. Object Secured! I truly mean this when I say- this is not a slight against anyone. Now that that's out of the way, I give permission to anyone on this forum to bash me over the head with a Halberd the next time I go to a Maelstrom game without ObSec.

 

I lost a game on that factor alone. It was the maelstrom where you must have a point, to even draw a card except in turn 1 where you have one card to start. Wow... what an idiot I am. I know better, I knew ObSec was vital, but there I was with NSF which to be honest... you know I'm not going to get into NSF, let's just say I counted 2 turns where I could draw Zero cards. I counted 3 turns where he stole, not just contested, but outright stole points from me. You could have all of Titan surrounding one model on an objective, if he's ObSec and you're not, you just gave him a free point. 

 

To me NSF isn't worth near the cost of objective based games like that. And I know better too. That's my own fault... never again though. I don't like giving free wins like that.

 

3. Officio Assassinorum! I had a lot of points to fill in a game. I had used some of the assassins but this is the first time I actually played a game with the Vindicare and a Calidus. Again, I went into this particular game not caring for the win, but wanted to try this concept.....

 

The Calidus is 'fun' but I wouldn't use her again. She has attitude, and it might be her pre-game stuff that actually tips the balance in her favour... 2 cracks at stealing first turn? Delaying opponent's reserves one time? Those are cool actually. Her set up is what really makes it click because her flamer is going to seriously disrupt something..... That being said her close combat woes are quite apparent against anything stronger than a gaunt.

 

The Vindicare was another story. Picking a dude out of a crowd and blowing him off the table is seriously good. Think of how many squads you face that hinges around one guy... a hammer, a FnP rule, a psyker, etc, etc. You guys know the rules.... I'm just repeating them because it was a real factor.

 

With his range, I put a Turbo Penetrator, denying cover and immobilzed a tank in turn 1. He proceeded to take dead aim on Mephiston and since he has no invuln, he slap a single 2 round wound into him, almost killing him. 

 

This guy has made the cut. He'll stay in a few lists. Now if he gets on a 'Skyfire' objective... wow. 

 

He was a lot of fun, and I'd say his 'big' thing is actually denying cover. So many units live in cover now it's kind of over done.

 

4. The Grav-dex (Space Marines) Experiment! I decided to save the best (worst?) for last!  I did not end up playing against Stompa dude. But I saw an opportunity to play someone loaded up on Grav and it's been on my mind because I do feel the Space Marine codex is going to change the game perhaps more than any codex released thus far. 

 

He was using Captain America build. I knew there was tons of grav, but I had first turn, and really... you can't hide from bikes and go for the win at the same time....

 

I decided to keep my 10 Terminators together, and I never got Sanctuary in this game, but I did Gate way deep into his back row. This had a few purposes, one was to avoid his bikes which were in the middle of the table. Another was to score first blood.

 

Along with the 10 Terminators I had 2 Librarians warp charges in total: 6.  I Gated, then blew apart the tank.

 

Captain American turns around and actually gets the whole squad in Salvo range.... the Terminators simply disappeared.  I had 4 bodies left, but both Librarians were now dead, giving up Slay The Warlord. 

 

I had lost almost all the hitting power of my list in one 'salvo'. In the ensuing assault phase, my last 4 terminators without Gate (Libby dead) tried to assault, and lost 2 more to Grav. 

 

My last 2 guys put up a heck of a fight but it was clearly a win for him based on one round of shooting from one squad worth under 200 points. 

 

I have a REALLY bad feeling about Grav-dex.

 

Let's put it this way: I thing Games Workshop was VERY smart releasing the Knight codex before Grav-dex. Because if the rumours were seeing, confirming every day now are true... there is no way a Knights going to survive a pod of Gravistators.  I think a Wraithknight has a better shot because it will have FnP and can be fed wounds from psykers. 

 

Usually I'm the one running Grav weapons in my Ultra's, but to be quite honest I think the Grav Centurion might be dead. Between the bikes and Devastators these guys will out done. The thing is we don't even know about Tigurius. If he goes largely unchanged... wow. 

 

The way I lost about 700 points to 150 points of bikes really made me think that we're going to have start loving PAGK again. I"m seriously thinking that the popularity of Space Marines = the new Grav era.

 

Up til recently I thought GW was pushing us to bigger and bigger models, and low, etc... now I think they're pushing it back to fielding lots of garbage/mediocre units. If you can remove a Knight this easily or 10 terminators.... what's the point? 

 

I've said a million times they need to seriously re-work the terminator. But this might be a real game changer if this codex is going to be that loaded in Grav... unless they change Grav rules somehow? (The cost is high on Devs. I heard 40 points per dude.)

 

What do you guys think?

[Jolemai]

What's the "Captain America Build"? I've not heard of that before.

[Prot]

What's the "Captain America Build"? I've not heard of that before.

 

It's very common in tournaments for Space Marine players. You take a Shield Eternal captain with a Hammer, and a bike. You load him up with bikes and as much Grav as you can. It's extremely potent and not only offensive, but very survivable as well. It has no real weakness because it can swap to bolters for crud and is very decent in hand to hand, but still retains speed, T5, and Jink. 

 

The biggest magic bullet is has is AP3 or better Flamers or the like of.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I truly mean this when I say- this is not a slight against anyone. Now that that's out of the way, I give permission to anyone on this forum to bash me over the head with a Halberd the next time I go to a Maelstrom game without ObSec.

 

I lost a game on that factor alone. It was the maelstrom where you must have a point, to even draw a card except in turn 1 where you have one card to start. Wow... what an idiot I am. I know better, I knew ObSec was vital, but there I was with NSF which to be honest... you know I'm not going to get into NSF, let's just say I counted 2 turns where I could draw Zero cards. I counted 3 turns where he stole, not just contested, but outright stole points from me. You could have all of Titan surrounding one model on an objective, if he's ObSec and you're not, you just gave him a free point. 

 

To me NSF isn't worth near the cost of objective based games like that. And I know better too. That's my own fault... never again though. I don't like giving free wins like that.

 

Maelstrom is jank, so my sympathy is limited. Like you say, it pays to have it when you need it in the format. In Eternal War, it's more a case of what your list is trying to achieve. NSF is really mainly for TDA heavy lists looking for a Turn 1 alpha-strike. 

The Vindicare was another story. Picking a dude out of a crowd and blowing him off the table is seriously good. Think of how many squads you face that hinges around one guy... a hammer, a FnP rule, a psyker, etc, etc. You guys know the rules.... I'm just repeating them because it was a real factor.

 

With his range, I put a Turbo Penetrator, denying cover and immobilzed a tank in turn 1. He proceeded to take dead aim on Mephiston and since he has no invuln, he slap a single 2 round wound into him, almost killing him. 

 

This guy has made the cut. He'll stay in a few lists. Now if he gets on a 'Skyfire' objective... wow. 

 

He was a lot of fun, and I'd say his 'big' thing is actually denying cover. So many units live in cover now it's kind of over done.

 

Yeah that's been my experience too. He's fantastic at being a scalpel to 1-wound squad leaders, heavy/special weapons, hidden fists, Priests etc, and can threaten multi-wound characters too. I wouldn't take him in a tournament list by any means, but he's great fun and effective at what he does. Ignore Cover is very good I agree, so much stupid Jink, Shrouded, Stealth etc etc to ruin your shots these days. It's nice just to ignore all that junk. Kinda need to though, he only gets 1 shot lol. 

(Space Marines) Experiment! I decided to save the best (worst?) for last!  I did not end up playing against Stompa dude. But I saw an opportunity to play someone loaded up on Grav and it's been on my mind because I do feel the Space Marine codex is going to change the game perhaps more than any codex released thus far. 

 

He was using Captain America build. I knew there was tons of grav, but I had first turn, and really... you can't hide from bikes and go for the win at the same time....

 

I decided to keep my 10 Terminators together, and I never got Sanctuary in this game, but I did Gate way deep into his back row. This had a few purposes, one was to avoid his bikes which were in the middle of the table. Another was to score first blood.

 

Along with the 10 Terminators I had 2 Librarians warp charges in total: 6.  I Gated, then blew apart the tank.

 

Captain American turns around and actually gets the whole squad in Salvo range.... the Terminators simply disappeared.  I had 4 bodies left, but both Librarians were now dead, giving up Slay The Warlord. 

 

I had lost almost all the hitting power of my list in one 'salvo'. In the ensuing assault phase, my last 4 terminators without Gate (Libby dead) tried to assault, and lost 2 more to Grav. 

 

My last 2 guys put up a heck of a fight but it was clearly a win for him based on one round of shooting from one squad worth under 200 points. 

 

I have a REALLY bad feeling about Grav-dex.

 

Throne. We really are dead. 

Let's put it this way: I thing Games Workshop was VERY smart releasing the Knight codex before Grav-dex. Because if the rumours were seeing, confirming every day now are true... there is no way a Knights going to survive a pod of Gravistators.  I think a Wraithknight has a better shot because it will have FnP and can be fed wounds from psykers. 

 

Usually I'm the one running Grav weapons in my Ultra's, but to be quite honest I think the Grav Centurion might be dead. Between the bikes and Devastators these guys will out done. The thing is we don't even know about Tigurius. If he goes largely unchanged... wow. 

 

The way I lost about 700 points to 150 points of bikes really made me think that we're going to have start loving PAGK again. I"m seriously thinking that the popularity of Space Marines = the new Grav era.

 

Wraithknight has a hidden bonus too, it only has a 3+ armour save. So, it takes less wounds to begin with than say a DK or Terminators. And yeah, it's 5+ invul and FNP are going to slow down it's death a lot, plus it has 6 wounds to chew through. A Knight-Titans 6HP isn't going to last anywhere near as long, especially if they land on a flank and avoid the ion shield. 

 

PAGK aren't the way out either. Grav-spam deletes them with the same impunity. 

Up til recently I thought GW was pushing us to bigger and bigger models, and low, etc... now I think they're pushing it back to fielding lots of garbage/mediocre units. If you can remove a Knight this easily or 10 terminators.... what's the point? 

 

I've said a million times they need to seriously re-work the terminator. But this might be a real game changer if this codex is going to be that loaded in Grav... unless they change Grav rules somehow? (The cost is high on Devs. I heard 40 points per dude.)

 

Cost won't matter. So long as they shoot efficiently and kill anything they point at, it simply won't be a factor. Marines don't invest in their Troops anyway, they have no issue loading down Heavy Support with points. Pod is the deal-breaker IMO. They can land anywhere, scatter or be placed a comfortable distance from their target, and still do work. Urgh. And the Bikers will be fun to face too. White Scars might be making a comeback off this. 

What do you guys think?

 

I'm glad I have other armies. Gonna be Allying or just shelving my GK from now on. All of this sounds utterly sickening. 

[Prot]

I'm trying very hard to remain positive. I am thinking what we do well is elite, and psychic. It's hard to exist on the psychic alone. 

 

My honest fear is marines are popular, hence this Grav-dex is going to be very common.  On the surface this feels worse than Necrons, or Eldar to me. It's just too bloody easy when you're walking around with an army that is wounded on a 2+ and denied armour. It's feeling like our Kryptonite is staring us right in the face with that codex. 

 

I really hope I'm wrong, and it's getting toned down, or the cost will be so prohibitive.... I don't know what else to say. lol

[Jolemai]

What, and C:SM doesn't use grav already?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm trying very hard to remain positive. I am thinking what we do well is elite, and psychic. It's hard to exist on the psychic alone. 

 

No, we don't. Eldar are better than us in both of those aspects. We used to be tougher, and we're still better in melee. But GW hates melee with a passion, so no dice. 

My honest fear is marines are popular, hence this Grav-dex is going to be very common.  On the surface this feels worse than Necrons, or Eldar to me. It's just too bloody easy when you're walking around with an army that is wounded on a 2+ and denied armour. It's feeling like our Kryptonite is staring us right in the face with that codex. 

 

Yeah. And what is even worse is that mech can't save you. Knight-Titan players are going to have a fit when the new Marine book comes out. 

What, and C:SM doesn't use grav already?

 

Read the thread

[Gentlemanloser]

I think Jol's point here is that Grav massacre was using a current C:SM build.

 

They delete us *now*, if built Grav heavy.

 

Let alone when you get Gravistators....

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Currently it's expensive and slow. Once Devs come online, it'll be way easier to land in range and just delete things at will. Especially with Tiggy or Mantis Warriors. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Bikes.

 

As above mate.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Oh right, my bad. Forgot about Captain America build. Huehuehuehue. I haven't had the pleasure of facing it locally yet. I'm sure after the new dex drops, it'll happen. 

[jeffersonian000]

The look on your opponent's face when their Cpt. Merica dies to Bolter fire is always something precious to behold. He too is mortal.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

If it bleeds, we can kill it!

[Prot]

The pipes n' purgs (wip) are posted in the ETL thread.... almost done the purgs. (I had to proxy some of the weapons as my 'normal' squads were using Incinerators as well.

 

 

The thing about the Capt. America squad.... the bike squad he's attached to is much more efficient then Centurions. I really think once Gravistators hit the tables, I just really don't see a place for Grav Cents. We'll see though.

 

In this case the bikes (shooting only) took a very healthy 700-ish points of Termies (but that does include 2 Libby HQ's) with approximately 150 points of bikes, plus Capt. America had a combi Grav.

 

Would I play this differently? I don't know how to be honest, the bikes have immense range, and although I can CC them to death, the problem is trapping them, and then taking the Alpha Strike from them. If we're talking about a "traditional" Grey Knights army, those Grav's are having a hay day with Termies and/or NDK's.

 

I did like the Blood Angels list. It hit hard in pods, and had the bikes running. I tried the dual Libby, w/10 man Termies, including dual Psycannons w/Prescience. It was good.... but not good enough for facing that particular squad which was a total points miss match.... he definitely came out on top with that one. It basically changed the game instantly.

 

I had one more thought.... I know most are against this, but I've used it well to this effect before: Tanking Draigo using Paladins and an Apothecary.... only problem is guaranteeing Sanctuary (Man I would have LOVED that in this game.) Which requires combo-ing Draigo and Stern which isn't my favorite thing to do. I like my cheap libbies.

 

At 1850 I don't know if this is valid. We often debate on this forum Rhino's and PAGK vs our Elite styled choices. I think Draigo Tank with or even without Pals is obviously playing into the eliteist in us. I'm just not sure anymore about just junking the Rhino's as I've been having moderate success so far.

 

I'm kinda stuck in between right now. Not committing either way which may be the worst of both worlds. I'm leaning towards Draigo Tank this week.

[Rurik the blessed]

Excellent review...

 

i need to try those pipes!!!

[Everon]

For grav builds, I use stern with crusaders from allied inq. They wound on 5 you save on 2++. Only real counter I have found against it

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Something to remember is that its only one Deathstar. So, at worst, it'll eat one unit a turn with it's grav stupidity. 

 

With that in mind, I'd just commit everything to it in one go. You probably need to go DK+Interceptors, and clog their approach with threats. Interceptors can kill Bikers just fine, and they're not overly expensive so you can field quite a few to compliment your DK's. As for your DK's, I'd dump as much gat psilencer with 'Force' into the unit and pray for 1's and 2's. You can flank to avoid the Captain just tanking it all with his 2+ armour. 

 

New dex is probably going to make even that plan too weak though. If mean, if you have to deal with drop podded Devs just landing near you and deleting units as well..urgh. 

[Emicus]

No bad luck in blowing yourself up from fuel pipe saves then? I've only faced it once, figured "hueheuehue" shunt interceptors double Incinerators with torrent, wohey, up against my oponents fortification. Took lascannon fire, was happy I got coversaves from the thing until I lost more to burning promethium than the shots would have done.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Something to remember is that its only one Deathstar.

 

Don't forget the troop units on bikes with Gravs.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah but they only have two grav-guns per 6, less efficient, and if you flank them you can potentially snipe the grav guns out.