How does the Aegis work?

[deathstarray]

Sorry for got to ask this one to

 

The rule The Aegis does that when whenever you roll for deny the witch or does it only work when a unit is targeted by a power?

[Aethernitas]

It only works when the unit is targeted.

[ChaoticEric]

There's a debate ongoing about this and the eldar farseer runes wether they can used only when the unit is targeted or whenever making a deny the witch roll. I for one believe it can only be used when the unit is targeted.

[casb1965]

Read part 4 of the Psychic Power Sequence, it clearly states that if the psychic power is not cast at your units then no bonuses count towards deny the witch.

 

"4. Deny the Witch. If the Psychic test was passed, one of the enemy targets gets a chance to expend Warp Charge points to nullify the power by taking a Deny the Witch

test. If the psychic power does not target an enemy unit, your opponent can still attempt to Deny the Witch, but will not be able to use any bonuses. In either case, if the

Deny the Witch test is passed, the psychic power does not manifest and nothing further happens."

 

So the Aegis only works on powers cast at a unit with that special rule.

 

I think there needs to be clarity between "your opponent" taking the roll when a unit is not targeted and "the unit" gaining bonuses when making the roll when targeted.

[jeffersonian000]

Is re-rolling 1's a bonus?

 

SJ

[casb1965]

Is re-rolling 1's a bonus?

 

SJ

 

No but it's your opponent who is rolling not the unit affected.The rules are so badly written that it states that a unit affected by a power rolls the Deny the Witch but if no unit is affected it is your opponent who rolls, therefore, no rerolling of 1s as that is a unit rule not opponent rule.

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

Is re-rolling 1's a bonus?

 

SJ

No but it's your opponent who is rolling not the unit affected.The rules are so badly written that it states that a unit affected by a power rolls the Deny the Witch but if no unit is affected it is your opponent who rolls, therefore, no rerolling of 1s as that is a unit rule not opponent rule.

It says no such thing.

 

The BRB tells us that if one of your units is targeted, and that unit has a Psyker, that unit can Deny the Witch and apply any bonuses it might have. If none of your units are targeted, you can still Deny the Witch, you just get no bonuses. The only question is which unit gets to Deny when none are targeted. RAW doesn't cover that, because GW fails at technical editing. By implication, your army roles for Deny, because you are using your army's Warp Charge pool. As Aegis is an army rule, Aegis technically applies to non-target Denies. So you have to ask yourself, "is a re-roll a bonus?" Most people would say no.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

The BRB tells us that if one of your units is targeted, and that unit has a Psyker, that unit can Deny the Witch and apply any bonuses it might have. If none of your units are targeted, you can still Deny the Witch, you just get no bonuses. The only question is which unit gets to Deny when none are targeted. RAW doesn't cover that, because GW fails at technical editing. By implication, your army roles for Deny, because you are using your army's Warp Charge pool. As Aegis is an army rule, Aegis technically applies to non-target Denies. So you have to ask yourself, "is a re-roll a bonus?" Most people would say no.

 

I dunno what you mean by declaring it an "army rule"? Maybe that it is listed under army special rules? Doesn't change the fact that the rule itself only functions ruleswise if you stick it on a unit. The Aegis isn't just "around" when you play a GK detachment. It is a special rule that all (not totally sure about that) GK units have and that is defined in the army special rule section but if you separate the rule from it's unit it becomes disfunctional. Even if it's wording is clunky as to expect from GeeDub it still is pretty clear that without a unit with this rule beeing targeted there is no such thing as rerolling the 1's on the deny roll.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm saying that a unit has to roll for Deny per RAW, regardless of if it was targeted of not. If no units were targeted, a unit still has to roll for Deny, so might as well be the unit with Aegis than the unit without. Please cite a rule that tells us otherwise.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

I'm saying that a unit has to roll for Deny per RAW, regardless of if it was targeted of not. If no units were targeted, a unit still has to roll for Deny, so might as well be the unit with Aegis than the unit without. Please cite a rule that tells us otherwise.

 

Please cite a rule that tells us to do so in the first place.

 

If no units where targeted you make the deny the witch roll. It's actually pretty simple. Here you have your instructions:

 

To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power. You will then need to expend a number of Warp Charge points; declare how many points you will  spend and remove them from your pool. Then roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points expended. Apply any of the following modifiers that apply to each individual dice roll:

 

When no unit is targeted the very first sentence is invalidated and makes the instructions impossible to follow through. Therefore we have this:

 

If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops) you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls – you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points.

 

So now we know how to follow through even if the first sentence of the instructions doesn't apply.

 

How one goes from that to "we can reroll all 1's on all deny rolls" is beyond me. I mean it's amazing - just take a supersmall GK detachments and reroll all 1's on deny rolls against every enemy blessing and conjuring...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

When you're Denying a Blessing or Conjuration (as Witchfires and Maledictions target, so they do trigger bonuses), you get no 'modifiers'. That's how it's worded, and it's a grey area. The intention is obviously 'only on 6's, no other bonuses or special abilities'. But per the wording, GW have disallowed say Adamantium Will or Mastery Levels affecting the roll (ie anything that gives +1 to it), but re-rolls aren't specifically forbidden. Because a re-roll isn't modifying the roll to Deny, it's simply letting you re-attempt. A subtle but important distinction. 

 

Personally, I find the whole Psychic phase a mess. I find it easier to just say 'you only get your bonuses if targeted'. Whether that is RAW or not, I don't know. But it's the safe approach and no one I play with has an issue doing it that way. 

[Aethernitas]

When you're Denying a Blessing or Conjuration (as Witchfires and Maledictions target, so they do trigger bonuses), you get no 'modifiers'. That's how it's worded, and it's a grey area. The intention is obviously 'only on 6's, no other bonuses or special abilities'. But per the wording, GW have disallowed say Adamantium Will or Mastery Levels affecting the roll (ie anything that gives +1 to it), but re-rolls aren't specifically forbidden. Because a re-roll isn't modifying the roll to Deny, it's simply letting you re-attempt. A subtle but important distinction.

 

My point actually is that the second paragraph I quoted tells you to disregard the first sentence of the step by step instruction (the first paragraph I quoted) but go through with the rest of the deny the witch process. You can't choose a unit to deny the witch if the power didn't target an actual unit therefore no unit specific special rules should be used which in turn means no rerolling 1's on the denies.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My point actually is that the second paragraph I quoted tells you to disregard the first sentence of the step by step instruction (the first paragraph I quoted) but go through with the rest of the deny the witch process. You can't choose a unit to deny the witch if the power didn't target an actual unit therefore no unit specific special rules should be used which in turn means no rerolling 1's on the denies.

 

Oh okay, well that settles it then. No Aegis bonus when denying Blessings and Conjurations. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm in the you get the Aegis camp.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295632-the-aegis/

Personally, the 'no modifiers' refers to;

Apply any of the following modifiers that apply to each individual dice roll:

Of which the Aegis isn't one of.

Please cite a rule that tells us to do so in the first place.

To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power.

All the next bit does;

If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops) you can still attempt to Deny the Witch.

Is removes the tiny section "that was a target"

It *does not* change the process. In fact we're told;

To do so, follow the same process

Which would be "first select one of your units".

[jeffersonian000]

GL has the right of it.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops) you can still attempt to Deny the Witch.

 

Is removes the tiny section "that was a target"

 

It *does not* change the process.  In fact we're told;

 

To do so, follow the same process

 

Which would be "first select one of your units".

 

Yeah - "first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power"

 

The selecting of a unit is bound to the requirement that it was targeted. The whole sentence is the first step of the process. "First select one of your units" is the instruction and "that was a target of the enemy psychic power" is the requirement. It's like in programming and if it tells you afterwards to follow through with the process even if none of your units were targeted that doesn't mean that you still get to select one of your units.

 

But let's say for the sake of the argument that you are right. You still wouldn't get Aegis because Aegis is bound to a unit and the term "select a unit" has no application ruleswise - it is only used to explain processes and it is not the same as targeting a unit. To use a units Aegis it has to be targeted so even if you interpretation was true that still wouldn't get you the Aegis reroll because none of your units were targeted at any point of the process.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aeth, that's the whole point.

 

Step one in a 'usual' Deny;

 

 

 

first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power

 

After looking at the section on denying other powers it becomes;

 

 

 

first select one of your units

 

All that's removed is the condition that the unit needs to be the target.  You still follow the 'usual process' in all forms *apart from the removal of the target stipulation*.

 

As you *have* to select a unit to begin the Deny prcoess, you can select *any* unit.

 

And the unit you select, I'm assuming will have The Aegis. ;)

[Aethernitas]

Thats great rules lawyering but my point still stands.

 

If it would say: "first, choose a model." and end there. That would be step one and it wouldn't matter if it was the target of the spell or not. That whole " that was the target of the enemy psychic power" cannot be ignored nor qualified.

 

Also selecting a unit does not target it. A unit can only take tests if it is targeted (think of template weapons and jinking). No target, no Aegis.

[Kenderleech]

Just as a heads up, this arguement has lead to several threads being locked before.   Its a hazy rules issue where both sides have at least a decent arguement, and GW isnt clarifying it.   Discuss it with your local game meta, and remember that your mileage may vary.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, as I asked in the two older threads linked, Aeth would you mind posting a step by step of how denying a blessing works?

 

And you'd also agree you could deny blessings if you have no units on board as well?

[Aethernitas]

Well, as I asked in the two older threads linked, Aeth would you mind posting a step by step of how denying a blessing works?

 

And you'd also agree you could deny blessings if you have no units on board as well?

 

Yes I'm in the camp that thinks you can deny stuff even if you don't have a single unit on the field.

 

I use the exact step by step instructions from the BRB without the first sentence because even if I may have a unit to select that unit wasn't targeted so I just skip that part.

[Gentlemanloser]

Do you think that's "follow the same process", or are you house ruling it as the RAW doesn't work?

[Emicus]

I’m in the camp that says “the easiest way to do something ought to be the way it’s supposed to be”.

If a method of doing something is incredibly convoluted and relies on a very specific interpretation of something, in a situation where there is a much simpler way to interpret the same thing, the latter “ought” to be the right way. I’m not saying it IS the right way, but it “ought”, and that’s the way I’m going to play it. I’m up-front with my opponent with “discussable interpretations” and ask/tell them before the game to make sure we are on an even playing field.
 

This has been especially useful to me in the past in regards to Gate of Infinity and no intercept, but no run&shoot either. With that discussion however, both sides stand to lose or win something, with the Aegis we only benefit. I’m not saying we don’t need a bit of an extra boost to stop the daemon horde from spewing forth from a rift in reality, but I’m going to stand by my “easiest way” interpretation regardless if it benefits me or not.

[jeffersonian000]

I guess then it all boils down to what we all think is "easiest", which in the end brings us back to how we each read the RAW.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The whole Psychic phase needs an FAQ. For this and many other reasons. 

 

For now, I think we should agree it's contentious and not easily resolved.