Mixing armor mks.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Hello,

 

So im stuck in a dillema and have a few questions, mostly pertaining to the Ultramarines.

 

My first question is, what mk would be the most common in the XIII during the Calth conjunction? In Tempest, it says that mk 2 was common, but would it be the most common?

 

Secondly, is it appropriate to mix different mks during this time period? For example mixing mk 2 with mk 3?

 

And finally, is the Praetor pattern helm able to be used (in terms of lore) with mk 2 armor?

 

Thanks all

[Remus Ventanus.]

Oh, my bad, i thought this was in the HH section of the forum!

 

Would a mod be able to re locate this thread?

[Olis]

Personally, I think it would be mk4 and Praetor variants that would be in the majority, but you know my view on that already. ^_^

 

Mixing and matching? Sure, why not? I don't doubt that sort of thing happened. ;)

[Aqui]

Hello,

 

So im stuck in a dillema and have a few questions, mostly pertaining to the Ultramarines.

 

My first question is, what mk would be the most common in the XIII during the Calth conjunction? In Tempest, it says that mk 2 was common, but would it be the most common?

 

Secondly, is it appropriate to mix different mks during this time period? For example mixing mk 2 with mk 3?

 

And finally, is the Praetor pattern helm able to be used (in terms of lore) with mk 2 armor?

 

Thanks all

I can only go by what I'd do - I don't have any official information (i.e. Tempest etc), so it's a "rule of cool/what seems to be logical at the time" for me.

 

I'd mix Mark II, III and IV (in order of availability), although I'd have Mark III used for close quarter stuff in the tunnels (being heavier armoured in the fluff, it kinda makes sense). Whilst I'd have thought Mark IV would be fairly available, the need to repair and replace existing suits would get harder as the whole system would be cut off. I'd also think that mixing of Marks to make functioning units would occur to some degree (i.e. suits having parts from the three Marks put together when spare pieces run out)

 

Not sure about Praetor helms though...

[Remus Ventanus.]

Thanks guys. Im kinda OCD when it comes to making my armies as close to lore as possible....

[Sam88]

I'm about 2500pts into my 30k Ultramarines, and for the most part have done them all MkIII. I just prefer the Iron armour style. In saying that though, I have got a Praetor in MkIV, the scimitars will be in MkIV and with the release of the new 40k UM upgrade sprue I'm thinking more and more of adding a Veteran Tac squad mostly made up of MkIV bits mixed with those. I'm justifying it simply by saying they only have so much of the newer patterns of armour, it goes to the more elite units first. If I do another tactical squad I'll probably give a sergeant a MkIV helm just to mix it up a little as well.

[apologist]

The big push from FW and BL in recent years has been to get the monumental galactic scale of the Heresy across. As with almost all of the Legions, virtually anything is acceptable and defensible for any particular Ultramarines army. I think their desire to encourage people's creativity is one of the reasons that there are fewer 'word of god' answers about what mark X was wearing, or what pattern Y was wielding.

 

That said, there's obviously degrees of likelihood – and as with a lot of good Legionaries of the XIII, you're keen to make sure that your troops are decked out smartly and in a coherent uniform. So, here are a few guideline thoughts that I followed for my army – I hope they're useful to you. :)

 

– Being distanced from the Sol system reduces the chances of the XIII having the Mars/Phobos/Deimos pattern of armour, and more likely to have locally sourced versions from nearby Forgeworlds – hence the presence of Praetor pattern armour rather than the more common Mars pattern Mark IV, as an example.

 

– Not being favoured by Horus, the Ultramarines would have received less of the latest equipment from the Segmentum Solar (the core of the Imperium). 

 

– However, they would have a great deal of legacy material from earlier in the Crusade, so the heavy presence of 'standard' armour marks is fine. 

 

– Being excellently supplied and equipped, and with five hundred productive worlds behind them, the Ultramarines would likely have lots of well-maintained basic material.

 

– Being pragmatic and tactically flexible, they would not have favoured particular marks for sentimental reasons, so there wouldn't be a heavy preponderance of Mark III, as seen in the Death Guard or Iron Hands, for example.

 

With those broad guidelines in place, I'd suggest that:

 

– Mark VII would be vanishingly rare. Perhaps one or two examples in the Legion as 'preview prototypes'; but as a rule, I'd avoid any parts from this mark altogether. 

 

– Mark VI would be very rare, though perhaps not unknown post-Calth. During the Conjunction, I'd imagine it to be virtually unknown, and certainly not common. Perhaps a distant fleet nearer the core might have received supplies, but certainly on Calth itself I'd avoid it.

 

– Mark V is an odd one, being retconned into being non-standard or patchwork suits from other marks. The former, non-standard approach, would be common (Praetor could be argued to be an example); and it could be argued that even the Ultramarines would struggle to issue sufficient complete suits to the bulk of the Legion as they gathered on Calth. As a result, it might be common, it might be rare. I'd suggest you decide whether your army is newly-equipped, newly-arrived veterans who have been forced to resupply quickly, or a force that has been issued with what remained in the neaarly-cleared out warehouses of Calth.

 

– Mark IV would be common, and I'd suggest that it would make up a significant proportion of the Legion as a whole: perhaps upwards of 75 per cent. That said, there's a great deal of variety possible here. In addition to the standard kit (Mars-pattern?), we're told that Praetor pattern is a local variant of Mark IV. I imagine it's just one of many variants, so you could happily declare that any non-standard parts are simply different forms of Mark IV. It is perhaps the 'safest' mark to use, as it allows you variety while still being definitely 'canonical' (as far as that goes). In addition, if you want a perfectly uniform army, you can go for a single pattern – I imagine the manufactories of the Five Hundred Worlds were cranking out thousands of suits of power armour; certainly sufficient to build a uniform force of whatever size you wish.

 

– Mark III would be utilised, but for dedicated units, as the Practical dictated ;) Again, lots of potential for local variants or uniform standard versions as you wish.

 

– Mark II would remain relatively common, I suspect, and would make up  the bulk of those not issued Mark IV. Whether these are simply forces that are awaiting shipments of newer armour, new arrivals on planet that have not yet been resupplied, or individuals who (for whatever personal reason) have elected to hold on to their older suits.

 

– Mark I would be very rare: perhaps occasionally seen in part as a desperate field-rigged repair, or used as part of artificer armour as an honour.

 

Hope those notes and thoughts help, but never forget the golden rule that creativity and personal choice trumps everything :)

[Remus Ventanus.]

*snip*

Hey Apologist!

 

Thanks alot for all the info!

 

I think im going to have the bulk of my army in mk4 with praetor, and then have the other 25% wearing mk 2. I think i will also give the veterans mk 2 armor with a praetor helm. Do you think that sounds accurate? I believe mk 2 would be able to use the praetor helm.

[Relict]

Remember also that the Calth muster lasted about a year - the Ultramarines began gathering in 006.M31 (right when the Betrayal on Isstvan III was happening). The bulk of the Legion arrived at Calth after a stop in the Sol System, a few scant months before word of the betrayal got to Terra. 

 

It would make sense that the Calth muster was used as a chance to refit the Legion and standardize equipment. Thus most of the Legionaries seen during the Calth Atrocity were in Mark IV armor (either the standard Mars-pattern or local Praetor-pattern). The Ultramarines would naturally have the best and latest equipment for their veteran/elite units, thus both Legion-specific upgrade kits released so far are meant to work with Mark IV armor.

 

On the flip side, I can see the Ultramarines being very pragmatic about which armor mark to issue to which formation. "Second line" units such as heavy support teams or vehicle crews would likely be in the older Mark II. Breachers and assault troops would take advantage of the Mark III. Marks VI and VII would be very rare (although it would not be outside the realm of possibilities for the Ultramarines to have procured at least some suits for testing and evaluation). Mark V would most likely only become prevalent during the Underworld War, as the Legionaries are cut off and reduced to scavenging.  

[Remus Ventanus.]

Remember also that the Calth muster lasted about a year - the Ultramarines began gathering in 006.M31 (right when the Betrayal on Isstvan III was happening). The bulk of the Legion arrived at Calth after a stop in the Sol System, a few scant months before word of the betrayal got to Terra. 

 

It would make sense that the Calth muster was used as a chance to refit the Legion and standardize equipment. Thus most of the Legionaries seen during the Calth Atrocity were in Mark IV armor (either the standard Mars-pattern or local Praetor-pattern). The Ultramarines would naturally have the best and latest equipment for their veteran/elite units, thus both Legion-specific upgrade kits released so far are meant to work with Mark IV armor.

 

On the flip side, I can see the Ultramarines being very pragmatic about which armor mark to issue to which formation. "Second line" units such as heavy support teams or vehicle crews would likely be in the older Mark II. Breachers and assault troops would take advantage of the Mark III. Marks VI and VII would be very rare (although it would not be outside the realm of possibilities for the Ultramarines to have procured at least some suits for testing and evaluation). Mark V would most likely only become prevalent during the Underworld War, as the Legionaries are cut off and reduced to scavenging.  

I was thinking veterans would prefer the older marks of armor. I know that ventanus uses mk 2, and he is the captain. I would think new recruits would get the mk 4. On the FW website it says praetor armor was being made for the most recently raised chapters, and my army will be based off the 4th company. This is why i have doubts that the 4th would be mostly mk 4

[Phalanx Warder]

I view all legions the same in this regard;

Legionaries were not rubber-stamped clones, each one of them is a revered warrior without human peer, they were more free to express their individuality in the legions than in a codex chapter. Around the great crusade no Astartes had died of old age so for all anyone knew they coud have been immortal.

 

Their long life span and the proliferation on new armor Mks as well as the untold amount of prototype equipment been issued for testing (Sarum patter helm, void optimized power units, Astartes own custom-built armor sections) I only really see honor guards and such in uniform equipment. In the armies of today there is a military need for uniformity, I dont see that with Astartes.

 

I do see them owning multiple Suits of different armor, I don't see them turning in their Mk II suit because Mk IV is available for issue. I think many would have had their Mk II suits upgraded to Mk III once IV was available that way I could show up to the fight in mission specific wargear.

 

Now, for the tabletop in my opinion its Mk III all the way!

[Remus Ventanus.]

So I just sent a message on FB to the lore master himself, Alan bligh. If anyone knows the answer it is him! I hope he responds! :)

[Leif Bearclaw]

 Around the great crusade no Astartes had died of old age so for all anyone knew they coud have been immortal.

 

Something of a tangent, but do you have a source for any Marine dying of old age? It's not something that tends to come up all that often.

[Relict]

Alan Bligh, the Emperor of 30K, beloved by all? :P

[Olis]

 

 Around the great crusade no Astartes had died of old age so for all anyone knew they coud have been immortal.

 

Something of a tangent, but do you have a source for any Marine dying of old age? It's not something that tends to come up all that often.

 

I don't think there ever has been a case of a space marine actually dying of old age. But they do age. And if they can age, then they can die of old age. It's just highly unlikely to happen because of their hazardous vocation. ;)

[paz]

To totally highjack onto this mk question thread:

 

What style of jump pack would Mk VI corvus armored marines use. mk2 and 3 use the duel engine-turbines, while mk4 and destroyers use mk4 maximus backpacks.

 

So would Corvus armor use the 1 engined jump pack, or the newer, double engine variant...

[Remus Ventanus.]

Alan Bligh, the Emperor of 30K, beloved by all?

Of course brother! He is our liege, and we are all his loyal servants! (well, those of us who arent treacherous bastards! :) )

I shall post his response here if he does reply.

[Olis]

To totally highjack onto this mk question thread:

 

What style of jump pack would Mk VI corvus armored marines use. mk2 and 3 use the duel engine-turbines, while mk4 and destroyers use mk4 maximus backpacks.

 

So would Corvus armor use the 1 engined jump pack, or the newer, double engine variant...

 

Considering MkVII armour is an evolution of MkVI, I'd say it'd be likely that the duel-engine version found on normal plastic assault marines would be a good bet. However, I would vouch for rule of cool - pick whichever one you believe looks better. ;)

[Slips]

 

 

To totally highjack onto this mk question thread:

 

What style of jump pack would Mk VI corvus armored marines use. mk2 and 3 use the duel engine-turbines, while mk4 and destroyers use mk4 maximus backpacks.

 

So would Corvus armor use the 1 engined jump pack, or the newer, double engine variant...

Considering MkVII armour is an evolution of MkVI, I'd say it'd be likely that the duel-engine version found on normal plastic assault marines would be a good bet. However, I would vouch for rule of cool - pick whichever one you believe looks better. ;)

I also remember reading somewhere that the dual intake Mk VII jump pack was less efficient than the Mk IV and if 30k and the setting is anything to go by, maybe even weaker than the twin turbines.

[Remus Ventanus.]

To totally highjack onto this mk question thread:

What style of jump pack would Mk VI corvus armored marines use. mk2 and 3 use the duel engine-turbines, while mk4 and destroyers use mk4 maximus backpacks.

So would Corvus armor use the 1 engined jump pack, or the newer, double engine variant...

Considering MkVII armour is an evolution of MkVI, I'd say it'd be likely that the duel-engine version found on normal plastic assault marines would be a good bet. However, I would vouch for rule of cool - pick whichever one you believe looks better.

I wish i could follow the rule of cool....I do to an extent....but my warriors, my sons, must be accurate!

[paz]

To totally highjack onto this mk question thread:

What style of jump pack would Mk VI corvus armored marines use. mk2 and 3 use the duel engine-turbines, while mk4 and destroyers use mk4 maximus backpacks.

So would Corvus armor use the 1 engined jump pack, or the newer, double engine variant...

Considering MkVII armour is an evolution of MkVI, I'd say it'd be likely that the duel-engine version found on normal plastic assault marines would be a good bet. However, I would vouch for rule of cool - pick whichever one you believe looks better.

I also remember reading somewhere that the dual intake Mk VII jump pack was less efficient than the Mk IV and if 30k and the setting is anything to go by, maybe even weaker than the twin turbines.

after a quick wiki search, seems Corvus was the first to use dual thrust jump packs, over the heresy mk 5 units.

question solved brothers, thanks!

[SalvationOfReason]

In regards to armor marks for Ultras, take a look at the Heresy art book. There's an entire section on Calth, great way to get a good feel for how the Thirteenth were during the muster and subsequent atrocity.

[apologist]

...and in response to the question about jump packs, I'd suggest mark VI marines use the mark V jump packs from FW. No great background reason, but aesthetically, they're closest to the RT versions :)
 

[Remus Ventanus.]

So in tempest there is a set of armor called "the mantle of Ultramar"....it says there are only 7 of these suits. Does anyone know of any images of this armor?

[Olis]

So in tempest there is a set of armor called "the mantle of Ultramar"....it says there are only 7 of these suits. Does anyone know of any images of this armor?

 

I don't think their are any.