New SM codex and its repercussions

[Aethernitas]

So our Wolfbrother Leman Russ SW got his codex early and was/is answering question in the rumour section.

 

From what I have seen there are already some changes that will most definitely be adopted by our codex.

 

> Dreadnoughts come with 4 attacks stock now

> all Techmarines have 2 wounds now

> Rhinos and Razorbacks are FA choices now

> all vehicles can squadron now and get boni doing so

 

For all the other goodness you can head over to faeit212 for a nice summary or read the whole Q&A in the B&C rumour section.

 

Sadly as predicted the Strike Force Ultra formation is arguably better than our Rites as it let's even Stormravens and Land Raider roll for Reserves turn 1 and trades run & shoot for +1 shot with every weapon coming from reserves and the +1 attack for terminators charging out of a assault vehicle.

[Everon]

From what I know we have been downgraded to allies Dex. Now from what I seen, the army we sync with best can literally destroy us turn 1 and has no need for us. So the question is, why shouldn't I just light my LE codex on fire and just quit?

Decurion we can't scratch, eldar we can't catch, tau we can't ds, and sm we can't assault when their basic crappiest unit is spamming gravs, preds got monster hunter, anti air has pref enemy, their termies are cheaper but not as cheap as ours and they can drop pod grav cents.

 

So question is what the :cuss can we do? We need an emergency update before 8th edition or else were justight as well be the sisters and never seen ever again.

 

Gw can we please get off the :cuss Matt ward :cuss list please?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Wow. Been having a read of the summary. Marines are going to stomp face.

 

4A on Dreadnoughts is very welcome. Here's hoping some FAQ's roll it out to us and the other Marine armies. Jks. 

 

Empty FA pods is a welcome change. I can take that with my Red Hunter Allies now, and given the infantry lists I'm fighting, I'll want Purifiers. 

 

 

I think this release kinda puts the nail in the coffin of pure GK. Ally or die. Good news is we can team up with them, so fight fire with fire ;) and Marines still suck in melee, so we do that for them. Stormhammers also didn't come down in price, so our Terminator Troops still matter (somewhat). 

[Gentlemanloser]

OK so the better than the NSF Strike Force Ultra, stipulates that all units must enter place by DS unless embarked.

 

And you have to take a Dread.

 

Which can't DS.

 

What happens if you choose not to embark your Dread in the SR you must also take?

 

Like your Psychic Powers?

 

Want to play GK with the new Marine Dex?

 

Load up on the Librarius Conclave.

 

And field nothing but Librarians in a Battle Forged army.

 

WooT!

 

(Oh and they're 65 points a pop.  Not too expensive.  Especially when you're harnessing Warp Charges on a 2+)

 

/disgust

 

Oh and Grav Devs get to reroll misses once per game.

 

HAHAHA

[Aethernitas]

@Everon @GM Come on guys pull yourselves together. Nothing is as bad as it looks.

 

I for one am quite happy that the first full-blown Imperial Codex seems to hold itself against the already realeased Xenos codices even though I have no intention whatsoever so ally my GKs with other SM chapters. The SM codex for me is more like an indicator of things to come when it's time for us to get a new codex and in this respect I like what I see.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think you might need a 'demi' before you can load up on other formations.  Not sure if you can just use the Librarian one on its own.

 

But if you can, I might just do that for the lulz.

 

(But Aeth, I'm sure you agree that Grav Devs with a built in reroll to hit once per game is a little, farcical.  Even if the Gravs cost 35 points)

 

Edit: I wonder how the NSF Ultra +1 effects Flamers after DS?

 

Edit2: And queue the I've got a 'demi-on' jokes.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh, and you thought Grav bikes were bad now?

 

 

 

They still let White Scars do it, and they got even better at it. They don't need a full 5 man squad to make bikes troops, so for ~750 points you can just take ML2 Librarian on Bike, then 6x3 Bikes with 2 Grav and 1 Combi-Grav for one detachment, and the same thing but with Khan in a second detachment, Scout up 108 grav shots for a little more than 1500 points

 

Ouch.

 

Scout.  108 Grav shots.

 

On bikes.

 

At 1,500 points.

 

Good game.

[Captain Coolpants]

An imperial guard, ork, or guardian-host list will just laugh at it though.

 

Anything with a poo armour save wont be much effected.

[Darkmagi]

But remember each of those bikes has a twin-linked bolter attached so vs those armies they will still delete units with impunity

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.  Orks don't laught at TL Bolters on relentless platforms.

[Zhukov]

I don't care whether that build wrecks certain armies, it is a bad army overall so I doubt I will ever have to face it. 

 

Some of you guys are so salty, it is incredible. 

 

Cool codex overall, nice options and multiple competitive builds for sure. Nothing too amazing, but solid overall. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Salty as in sceptical?  Or Salty in it's newer version of QQ?

 

Edit: Zhu, this Codex has upped the 'power' (however you want to define it) of the new Marine Codex.  Gravs everwhere.  Cheaper stuff.  Demi-curion.  DPs for Cents.

 

The old Marine dex was competitive/cool/solid, and had multiple builds.

 

The new Dex builds on that.

 

And leaves us in the dust.

 

Edit: Come on, our signature detachment is eclipsed by the newer Marine one.  And now you can have formations of pure Psykers as well...

 

It puts us in a *very* bad position, until we are finally updated, whenever that may be.

 

It's not crying, it's looking at the game realistically.

 

We are outdated.

[Prot]

Okay, my take on it:

 

 

Strilke Force Ultra

- 1 Captain

- 2 Termi squads

- 2 Assault Termi squads

- 1 Venerable Dreadnoght

- 1 Stormraven

- 1 LR Crusader or Redeemer

Benefits:

- All units stay in Reserve. Start rolling on your turn 1.

- After coming from reserves, or disembarking, shooting weapons of the Termi squads get +1 shoot (For Example, Assault Cannon becomes Heavy 5)

- When disembarking from a transport, assault Termi units get +1A.

Restrictions:

Captain must have Terminator Armour

All units must enter via DS, unless embarked in a Transport.

 

 

This is Strike Force Ultra. It's too rigid to compare to Grey Knights NSF.  Being forced to take units like 2+2 termie types, and a landraider? I still am not a huge fan of any Dreadnought in the non-Forgeworld line up.... at least not a fan of being forced to take one.

 

While the formation is nice, I don't anticipate it will see any real play.

 

Bigger... much bigger to me is Gravistators. I've already been through this in my own thread but forcing myself to against a few heavy Grav opponents has me worried. I think the Gravistator in Pod is FAR superior to the Centurion with their limitations, and the only thing slowing this down is the cost (approx 35pts per Grav Cannon with Amp built in.) Combine this with Combat Doctrines; Tactical Traits..... Sprinkle in some Tigurius.... it will be very strong.

 

I anticipate the codex will excel around a blend of Gravistators, Iron Hands FnP command bike squads, with even more Grav. Forget strike force Ultra... I think the real beef is in the bikes, grav and devs. Grav is a magic bullet for Grey Knights. I anticipate seeing even more of it (beyond Capt America which arguably now gets stronger.)

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not that the Strike force is rigid, its that it does our stickh, and better.

 

Brings in Vehicles.  Works with units that can't Deep Strike.

 

Besides, we usually use the NSF to bring in Termies.  Adding in a LR/Raven isn't too much of a strech.  Especially if they've been given any nice boosts in the new Dex.

 

And on top of it all, Marines get Pods as well for normal use.

 

We were denied Pods.

 

Marines get it all.

[Prot]

What I'm saying is... there's a trade off.

 

Would you trade that formation for NSF? Would you trade the freedom of our Detachment for the rigid structure of that one just so you could roll for a Stormraven in turn 1 and get an extra shot? I wouldn't.

 

Don't forget you're looking at 4 squads of Termies minimum. You're okay with the landraider? How about the dread? How about what you can't take? Libbys, LoW, etc?

 

To me the trade off is too much. If anything I could see this screwing us up. I happen to like GW gives us flexiblity in our detachment. I don't want to lose that just so I could bring in a stormraven on turn 1. They should just add that our reserves start turn 1 as well. It's the nature of the chapter. But this is too rigid for my tastes.

[Gentlemanloser]

The new Marine Dread with 4A?  If it's got AV13, I'd take it and be happy.

 

Don't we usually roll with 20 GKT?  That's 4 Squads. Sure, there's less flexibilty with load outs, but you gain extra shots/attacks.

 

Can't take libbies with it?  Oh well, I guess I'll use the Libby formation and take a squad of 3+ of them as a unit.  Edit: In a FA empty Drop Pod for Guaranteed first turn DS...

 

The new Marines out DS us.  They out Shoot us.  They potneitally out CC us, and can be built to out Pyshcic us.

 

What's left for the Grey Knights?

 

NDKs (that will be eaten alive by Gravs) and Psyk-outs.

 

Edit: Shunt is really the only unique thing the GKs have left.

[Aethernitas]

What I'm saying is... there's a trade off.

 

Would you trade that formation for NSF? Would you trade the freedom of our Detachment for the rigid structure of that one just so you could roll for a Stormraven in turn 1 and get an extra shot? I wouldn't.

 

Don't forget you're looking at 4 squads of Termies minimum. You're okay with the landraider? How about the dread? How about what you can't take? Libbys, LoW, etc?

 

To me the trade off is too much. If anything I could see this screwing us up. I happen to like GW gives us flexiblity in our detachment. I don't want to lose that just so I could bring in a stormraven on turn 1. They should just add that our reserves start turn 1 as well. It's the nature of the chapter. But this is too rigid for my tastes.

 

Don't get me wrong - I don't want that formation for GKs as I happen to love the NSF but I do think that many of it's aspects would have been more useful and fluffy if we had those special rules too. The ability to bring in LR and Ravens turn one would be a huge buff for both and I think I would personally prefer the extra shot over the run and shoot though that might change.

 

Let's just hope that GW makes the extra effort to cement our status as the flagship teleport army of the Imperium.

 

 

The new Marine Dread with 4A?  If it's got AV13, I'd take it and be happy.

 

Don't we usually roll with 20 GKT?  That's 4 Squads. Sure, there's less flexibilty with load outs, but you gain extra shots/attacks.

 

Can't take libbies with it?  Oh well, I guess I'll use the Libby formation and take a squad of 3+ of them as a unit.  Edit: In a FA empty Drop Pod for Guaranteed first turn DS...

 

The new Marines out DS us.  They out Shoot us.  They potneitally out CC us, and can be built to out Pyshcic us.

 

What's left for the Grey Knights?

 

NDKs (that will be eaten alive by Gravs) and Psyk-outs.

 

Edit: Shunt is really the only unique thing the GKs have left.

 

Vanilla Dread with AV13 is most likely not going to happen but I take 4 attacks. If our version gets psychic pilot and useful powers for a reasonable prize that would put the cherry on the cake.

 

I think if any army would justify beeing allowed to charge after deep-striking it would be GKs. The extra shot is nice but what I really want is either more reliable deep strikes or a way to get into cc faster. An additional shot will help sometimes but we are still sitting ducks after deep striking, even with rites.

 

The new Marines can potentially out-DS us, they will probably outshoot us, they will hardly ever out-cc us and they will never out-psychic us. Yes Marines can be built to do many things better than us but you seem to deliberately ignore the fact that we beat them in almost everything except shooting without even trying. If they build their list for it they can most likely best us in 2 disciplines but they can still only ape our full potential. Sure they are overall the stronger codex but thats probably because their codex is in line with the highter overall powerlevel, they have much larger range of units, they encompass a dozen chapters in one book so you can cherrypick and in the fluff they face a much larger variety of foes whereas we were created to fight Chaos, especially Daemons.

 

It's just the same pessimistic glooming as with every codex release. Take a step back and let the new SM codex time to get actually released and earn it's feathers.

[Zhukov]

@Gentlemanloser: You can hide behind the word realism to justify your crying, I don't care, it does not change my reality. I see this release as a massively positive one, one healthy for the whole overall game and for GK as well.

 

But really, why bother? Why focusing on the negative? It does not bring you anything. Move on. Accept the situation and make it better for yourself. What that is is up to you. Me? I try to win with them regardless how strong they are. If I can't win with them anymore while I really want to win? I pick a stronger army or play them for the challenge.

[jeffersonian000]

No, Chicken Little, the sky is not falling. At the current release schedule, a new GK codex is right around the corner, so keep calm and carry on. With 8th hitting in December, we'll see all of the current codexes recycled to the new buffed standard by then. 2016 is the year WHFB gets integrated into 8th Ed 40k.

 

GC NDK will be awesome! Librarian Dreadnoughts! Mordrak!

 

We are the Hammer.

 

SJ

[Happy-inquisitor]

Oh, and you thought Grav bikes were bad now?

 

 

 

They still let White Scars do it, and they got even better at it. They don't need a full 5 man squad to make bikes troops, so for ~750 points you can just take ML2 Librarian on Bike, then 6x3 Bikes with 2 Grav and 1 Combi-Grav for one detachment, and the same thing but with Khan in a second detachment, Scout up 108 grav shots for a little more than 1500 points

 

Ouch.

 

Scout.  108 Grav shots.

 

On bikes.

 

At 1,500 points.

 

Good game.

 

Somehow without knowing what was coming I have almost finished building and painting the counter-meta army to that (yes, it is my Xenos heresy bit of fluffy fun). Honestly if someone puts that on the table I pretty much auto-win with those Xenos - especially since White Scars lost Hit and Run. Void Shield Generators combined with huge infantry blobs for the win, neither grav nor bolters can hurt it. For which reason I think that particular one trick pony will not be very popular because the hard counter is too obvious.

 

The next codex along will probably smash my Xenos into little bits, meh, I'm still having fun.

 

More broadly I think that a good Space Marine codex is good for the game. This is where most players start out and if they start with something that has decent options that is a very healthy thing.

[Aethernitas]

More broadly I think that a good Space Marine codex is good for the game. This is where most players start out and if they start with something that has decent options that is a very healthy thing.

 

Couldn't agree more. Like in Magic the Gathering the casual kitchentable players probably outweigh all competitive and semi-competitive players by a large margin. They surely are psyched for their more than solid new SM codex and so should we. Like you said.

[Gentlemanloser]

they will hardly ever out-cc us and they will never out-psychic us.

Well, their Special Characters get easy access to FnP, Assault Centurion get Drop Pods, and Terminators can Assault from Strikeforce Landraiders with +1A. Dreads with 4A as well. Why do we out CC Marines? I don't see it. Especially with doctrines (which to be honest I'm unsure what benefit they provide...)

And for Psychic Prowess, field multiple Librarian formations. That *will* out Psychic us. Especially when they gather on a 2+. Gather Warp Charges on a 2+. I'll let that sink in for a minute.

I see this release as a massively positive one, one healthy for the whole overall game and for GK as well.

In what way?

The *only* way it's healthy for GK is because we can ally in the new SM hotness.

But that's a property of the Imperial super friends. Nothing to do with GK, and nothing any pure GK player either has access too, or should be happy about.

If you seriously think GW will FAQ in all the new goodness to the older codexes, I'm sure you will be sadly disappointed.

SM get a great release. Imperials get a great release. GK have nothing to be happy about.

No, Chicken Little, the sky is not falling. At the current release schedule, a new GK codex is right around the corner, so keep calm and carry on. With 8th hitting in December, we'll see all of the current codexes recycled to the new buffed standard by then. 2016 is the year WHFB gets integrated into 8th Ed 40k.

GC NDK will be awesome! Librarian Dreadnoughts! Mordrak!

We are the Hammer.

The optimism!

I would love it if the trend of our Codex was reversed (this one is a travesty compared to the Ward dex), but I really don't see us getting an update any time soon.

I pray I'm wrong.

Edit: For too long, for many years, I suffered with the Daemonhunters codex. No, you didn't dominate with it. You didn't win the majority of your matches playing the DH army, no matter how much you took the waterwarrior to heart.

They were long, depressing years. And *nothing* I want to head back to.

Yet our 7th edition dex is *vastly* similar to it. limited choices. and potency that is being stripped away with every new release.

Being left again as we were as Daemonhunters is something I will strongly oppose, and strongly desire never to reach again.

Edit2: As for the limited focus above on a bike build, it's because that's what we have *now*, and it's only going to get better. You guys read how Prot fared against a bike build? Imagine one with the new Dex.

And yes, this ignores all the new hotness. Like Grav Devs. Podding Cents. Anti Air, or Rending Stalkers (or Stalkers that fire twice), TWC squarons, and whatever else new in there that will take use to tease out.

Just look at existing builds folk use *now*, and see how improved they will become.

[Aethernitas]

 

they will hardly ever out-cc us and they will never out-psychic us.

 

Well, their Special Characters get easy access to FnP, Assault Centurion get Drop Pods, and Terminators can Assault from Strikeforce Landraiders with +1A.  Dreads with 4A as well.  Why do we out CC Marines?  I don't see it.  Especially with doctrines (which to be honest I'm unsure what benefit they provide...)

 

And for Psychic Prowess, field multiple Librarian formations.  That *will* out Psychic us.  Especially when they gather on a 2+.  Gather Warp Charges on a 2+.  I'll let that sink in for a minute.

 

My point was that they can beat us in one or more of the disciplines but they have to build a list focussed to do so while we do all those things more than solid without beeing unbeatable. The Librarius Conclave is included in the demi battle company detachment so you have to fill the core slot before you can take a conclave. Even so if they go all in on Librarians they may beat us in psychic prowess but they have to neglect other aspects. As long as you don't play 3000 points or more I highly doubt they can beat us in all disciplines.

 

If you are so frustrated with the current state of GKs it might help to main another army for now and come back to GKs if you play more casual games or you just feel like it. A new codex will come. Question is when and if it will do us any actual good ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

I'll probably just 'counts-as' with the new Marine Dex. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The repercussions are that we're dead as a pure build. Calling it now. 

 

On the plus side, we can Ally with new Marines, and benefit from their strengths. We do melee and psychic support, they do shooting and holding ground. Pretty good combo overall. 

 

If people wanna continue being in denial, after so much has been confirmed, that is your choice. But when you do fight new Marines, enjoy getting deleted with impunity. Grav is perfectly evolved to murder everything we have efficiently and reliably. We have very little to stop it. You have to fight fire with fire in this instance. Not to mention Marines help us in other matchups, like murdering annoying MC's, or killing enemy Terminators (which we're not very good at), and of course killing vehicles (which we're only okay at doing, much better in melee but melee is hard to achieve).