New SM codex and its repercussions

[Aethernitas]

 

 

I'd argue that you can still play competitivly as in playing smart, knowing your rules, predicting your opponent and wanting to win, even without having to attend tournaments (disagreeing with Zhukov here) and without reaching the level of competition that Warmachines provides. Saying otherwise seems to automatically degrade the folks who may not have access to tournaments (talking actual tournaments here, not LGS tournaments), don't want to put up with the whole shebang that comes with it or just have accepted the narrative nature of 40K.

 

You don't have to take my word for it but if you want a wargame sporting a ruleset centered around competitive play instead of narrative play the try Warmachines/Hordes. It's different but fun and it is actually balanced and playtested towards high levels of competitive play.

 

Why would it degrade those folks? Not being a competitive player isn't an insult lol. It is not like you aren't accomplished in life when you aren't playing 40k competitively.

 

I played Chess many years and have played X-wing as well, along with RTS games and LoL. Balance has often very little to do with how competitive a game is.

 

 

You yourself have set up some kind of class system where only players attending tournaments can be competitive. If a non-tournament attending player thinks of himself as very competitive but has no avenue for tournament play (and those are a lot) then you degrade them by saying only tournament players are competitive players. Maybe degrade is the wrong word but I blame that one on 2nd language reasons.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

280 for a 10 man sized Devastator unit in a pod

 

And for a 5 man squad you're going to more or less suicide pod?

 

 

 

Without any further upgrades it's indeed 49 points for GravDevs and 80 for GravCents. The folks here always calculate the Devs with 5 ablative wounds which comes close to a GravCent quad of 3.

 

Sweet.

 

It's 90 for the first Cent isn't it, so 270 total pre pod.  And 5 grav devs would be around 215?

 

A little saving over multiple squads.  Not sure it's the best route, but it's an option.

[Gentlemanloser]

Space Marine Librarians don't have Power Armour.

 

/chortle

 

They have a native 3+ armour save.

 

And replace;

 

Bolt Pistol, Frag & Krak Grenade with Terminator Armour.

 

 

I don't quite know what to think about this.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ouch. Chapter Tactics got the IC rules sorted.  And nerfed.

 

If a Space Maine unit contains models from two different Chapters, it counts as belonging to neither.  And gains no benefit from either Chapter Tactic.

 

Nerf.  But understandable.

 

Pedro Kantors Sternguard.  Have Objective Secured, and as an Imperial Fist successor, can reroll all failed to-hit rolls of 1's, even when using speciality ammo....

 

Nice.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah I actually like that change. People aren't just combo'ing off with different Chapter Tactics. You're forced to commit to a Chapter trait. 

 

I'm gonna do a Tactica soon for the new book. It's not just grav-spam to discuss (although that is obviously a major issue for us in the matchup). The more I read, the more I find new 'wow they did that' moments cropping up. 

[Emicus]

Holy Emperor, DREADNOUGHT BUFFS?! Awesome! The BA Furioso Librarian Dreadnought is looking pretty slick now if the trend continues.. Hoping we'll get one in our new book

Edited for clarification regarding new space marine book setting precedent for future marine books.

[Zhukov]

You yourself have set up some kind of class system where only players attending tournaments can be competitive. If a non-tournament attending player thinks of himself as very competitive but has no avenue for tournament play (and those are a lot) then you degrade them by saying only tournament players are competitive players. Maybe degrade is the wrong word but I blame that one on 2nd language reasons.

I don't see it as having it just set up myself, that's not giving me enough credit. We discussed it. For me it follows from the definition of words and logic. If somebody believes he is something which he is not, then it is he who degrades himself, not me by pointing out that he fools himself. The truth hurts sometimes. I know how it is, I've been there myself in the past, fooling myself. I wish people had told me the truth, although I am sure I would have felt offended too at that point in time. Didn't we agree to disagree though? I have to admit, I never mind discussing things like this, so it's probably me who is to blaim for bringing this up again heh.

And I believe degrading is the correct word, I understand what you mean by it in any case. Then again, English is technicly my 3rd language, so maybe we both are wrong here! ^^

 

 

280 for a 10 man sized Devastator unit in a pod

 

And for a 5 man squad you're going to more or less suicide pod?

210, 14 points per marine throughout the codex (tacticals, devs and assault marines without jump packs).

[Bartali]

Holy Emperor, DREADNOUGHT BUFFS?! Awesome! The BA Furioso Librarian Dreadnought is looking pretty slick now.. Hoping we'll get one in our new book

Nothing in the BA book has been changed so far. There may be a FAQ to bring stuff into line with the SM codex, but I wouldn't get my hopes up

[Aethernitas]

 

You yourself have set up some kind of class system where only players attending tournaments can be competitive. If a non-tournament attending player thinks of himself as very competitive but has no avenue for tournament play (and those are a lot) then you degrade them by saying only tournament players are competitive players. Maybe degrade is the wrong word but I blame that one on 2nd language reasons.

I don't see it as having it just set up myself, that's not giving me enough credit. We discussed it. For me it follows from the definition of words and logic. If somebody believes he is something which he is not, then it is he who degrades himself, not me by pointing out that he fools himself. The truth hurts sometimes. I know how it is, I've been there myself in the past, fooling myself. I wish people had told me the truth, although I am sure I would have felt offended too at that point in time. Didn't we agree to disagree though? I have to admit, I never mind discussing things like this, so it's probably me who is to blaim for bringing this up again heh.

And I believe degrading is the correct word, I understand what you mean by it in any case. Then again, English is technicly my 3rd language, so maybe we both are wrong here! ^^

 

You have lost me. I feel like it could be that you were missing my point. You talk about people beeing something they aren't and whatnot and my point is just that competitivness isn't bound to tournament attendance. Makes me feel like we are just running in circles so lets just say that our opinions are different and leave it at that.

[Prot]

The thing I am getting out of the codex is..... ultimate flexibility. They can handle deathstars a lot easier now, they can go against Knights, GC's etc, without having to ally, etc.

 

But the flexibility is they can retain lists builds that can handle those nasties, and still take on hordes, just due to sheer twin linking. They're getting a LOT more mileage out of every shot... It's no joke re-rolling every squad to some degree for 4 turns+. (This is Ultra of course which I think did the best.)

 

The Auxillary units are icing on the cake, but point mods, the unit tweaks... and you can make a CAD quite easily that will still get you ObSec while using Auxiliary units. It reminds me of Necrons. At first all you saw was Decurion and now you can see better use of Aux formations combined into stronger HQ selections for a better performing ObSec w/ CAD.

 

I think Space Marines will go this way too.

 

Specifically we're looking at better dreadnoughts (4 attack base), cheaper Termies, some excellent characters. The stormtalon got cheaper upgrades, better survivability. I still think the common access to Grav is going to be a real magic bullet to GK. We're just so use to playing 'elite heavy' and it will just be an incredible amount of wounds to overcome. The Dev Doctrine, plus re-rolling 1's with other doctrines, Tigurius, etc. There's no two ways about it, it's going to be ugly.

 

The problem I see is there is no real 'solution' imo. It's more about playing smart and target priority will be huge. Maybe a first reaction is to pipe down on the super elite units we have, and flood more bodies.... but again, I think their ability to take on more models is augmented by an incredible boost to tacticals through the minor tweak to Doctrines.

 

I was thinking of going big time on MSU. That's the only thing I can see on the surface, is just splitting targets up.... A base 3 man Paladin squad is 165 points... unfortunately. (this borders on absurd). With NSF we have (typically) a lot of empty elite slots.

 

With most Space Marine armies I feel comfortable in assault using GK's, but in this edition getting there is going to be extremely difficult.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

We don't have a solution, if you're talking as a pure army. Grav is the silver bullet to our Aegis plate. Even our vaunted Dreadknights turn to swiss cheese under that much grav. 

 

As you say, the rest of the roster is very well rounded and still performs great. They're all in the shadow of grav units however, and ultimately just there to provide flexibility against the stuff grav can't handle (mostly just Flying things, everything else grav murders horribly). 

 

We're gonna have to Ally them ourselves. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

A base 3 man Paladin squad is 165 points...

 

And can't take any Psycannons...

 

Not worth it.

 

We can MSU.  But so can Marines.  Much cheaper (not only are the cheaper themselves, but if they start utilising free razors it's going to get silly), and still have the dakka to melt us.

[Prot]

Yea I agree... it's ugly. I wish there was an answer in the Pskyer phase? Invis the heck out of everything? It's cheesy but there is no.... 'standard' answer to this. Getting into CC will be mandatory and Invis is just not all encompassing enough. I wish we had a 'shroud' of some sort..... Like the Necron wargear that causes snap firing on all units firing at it the turn it is activated. That piece of wargear is something we need... or the like of. I'm wishlisting now. lol

 

Anyway, yea we need Psycannons like always. MSU is impossible. Psychic phase trickery is okay, but unreliable and not wide spread enough to make a difference for the army. Oh well... back to my Plan B: Throw a Vortex Grenade at it and pray.

[Commander Dawnstar]

 I wish we had a 'shroud' of some sort..... Like the Necron wargear that causes snap firing on all units firing at it the turn it is activated. That piece of wargear is something we need... or the like of. I'm wishlisting now. lol

It'd be interesting if they brought back a re-imagining of The Shrouding in the next version of the Codex to add some level of survivability like that.

[Bukimimaru]

Greetings brothers, I've ventured from waaay over at the Blood Angels subforum.

Like many of you guys and those over at the DA and SW forums, alot of my Blood Angel comrades are having a difficult time beliving what good fortune the C:SM players have had. 

 

Keep your chins up, its going to be a struggle for all of us that dont like to take allies.

 

A load of us on the BA forums have taken to sending emails to GW asking them for an FAQ or Errata update. I'm under no illusion that it will make a blind bit of difference, but it took 20 seconds and it felt like we had to do something. Might be worth you guys doing the same.

 

Stand together brothers, we've all been through worse. :)

[jeffersonian000]

Don't worry. We're all getting new codexes by November, just in time for 8th. 2016 will be the year focused on WHFB being integrated with 8th Ed 40k style rules and new army books.

 

SJ

[Everon]

Don't worry. We're all getting new codexes by November, just in time for 8th. 2016 will be the year focused on WHFB being integrated with 8th Ed 40k style rules and new army books.

 

SJ

Can you site the source? Or is this another plastic sisters rumor? Still hard to believe that they would do a 40k 8th fantasy 9th and 30k 1st in 6 months when Dex's aren't even done. If anything the fast Dex releases tell me they know they screwed up and want all armies 7th compatible asap. That and the rebranding issues since they lost their law suit. I'm more willing to believe a 7 v2 for us to rebrand us under the new format and be codex Astarte's compliant before we see 8th

[Prot]

Look at it this way... they have to have a big seller at Christmas. It's nearly mandatory in that sort of industry (retail/hobby/etc). Those last couple of months before the New Year are basically bread and butter for them.

 

They just blew they Space Marines for year end reporting boost. What will have near the impact of Space Marines going into the final quarter of the year? Fantasy doesn't hold a candle to 40K for putting GW in the black.

 

Now look at the tweaks to Space Marines. On the same level I could see them tweaking 8th. Small things... objectives for Maelstrom, psychic powers, mission tweaks, minor mechanics, and Warlord Traits. Small stuff... nothing game breaking but important, small stuff.

 

Include a limited version as well. Throw in some special cards, and tokens. This is a release event that I could see taking place in that time of the year. (If not December-ish, then when?)

 

Regardless at the pace they are going, to say that Grey Knights would get done before the new year is very believable. Look at what they've done in the past 12 months? Getting the rest of the Astartes on par allows them to move onto Chaos, Orks, etc....

 

The Space Marine codex is really just the old one with tweaks in points, formations, and Chapter Tactics. Heck most of the characters I play out of the codex hardly changed at all. There's only a few new box kits.

 

Just saying it's very possible and when you look at that time of year, I would have greater trouble believing something like... I dunno... Dark Eldar would come out in December. They'd probably look at that as a waste of a quarter.

 

I think they were very smart with Space Marines. They did just what they did to Necrons and Eldar. "most" of the codex is usable now, and the underlying core is just that much more useful now. 

 

Our turn will be glorious or... horrific! How's that for a prediction?! lol (Honestly I could see them going back to a Daemonhunters style for the next one. I don't think the web release did a hill of beans worth of income for them.)

 

Just my two bits of speculation. 

[Aethernitas]

Don't worry. We're all getting new codexes by November, just in time for 8th. 2016 will be the year focused on WHFB being integrated with 8th Ed 40k style rules and new army books.

SJ

Can you site the source? Or is this another plastic sisters rumor? Still hard to believe that they would do a 40k 8th fantasy 9th and 30k 1st in 6 months when Dex's aren't even done. If anything the fast Dex releases tell me they know they screwed up and want all armies 7th compatible asap. That and the rebranding issues since they lost their law suit. I'm more willing to believe a 7 v2 for us to rebrand us under the new format and be codex Astarte's compliant before we see 8th

Jeff is most definitely either trolling or it's his kind of strange humour to cope with the whole GK-situation He has repeated this style of posts over different threads the last couple of days but that doesn't make it any more true. To not let your wishful thinking fool you - there is not a single scrap of reliable rumour (kinda contradictory - I know) that would support a new edition in the foreseeable future.

Regardless at the pace they are going, to say that Grey Knights would get done before the new year is very believable. Look at what they've done in the past 12 months? Getting the rest of the Astartes on par allows them to move onto Chaos, Orks, etc....

The Space Marine codex is really just the old one with tweaks in points, formations, and Chapter Tactics. Heck most of the characters I play out of the codex hardly changed at all. There's only a few new box kits.

Just saying it's very possible and when you look at that time of year, I would have greater trouble believing something like... I dunno... Dark Eldar would come out in December. They'd probably look at that as a waste of a quarter.

I think they were very smart with Space Marines. They did just what they did to Necrons and Eldar. "most" of the codex is usable now, and the underlying core is just that much more useful now.

I also like what they are doing with the last codex releases (Crons, Eldar, SM's) seriously fixing the internal balance and even if it's a bit early but I think the external balance between those three also looks quite balanced. At this point this is of course strictly my personal opinion and highly theoretical.

The possibility of a new GK dex before 2016 is probably extremely small. Somehow I don't trust GW enough that they would finish what they started with Crons and give every codex the treatment Crons, Eldar and Sm received. It would make perfect sense to me even when many of the codices would be less than a year old at the time they would get updated. Very sceptic but if GW really have to balls to go through with this then I shall tip my head to them.

At the end of the day I don't see it happening though. Not yet. It's too soon.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

We're not getting updated before end of year. Period. We're an Ally codex that isn't a big seller. GW have no reason to touch us till at least next year. I'm predicting mid-way through 8th at the earliest, if that. 

[Everon]

I concur, way too soon. But I don't know, does any one believe it enough to start a "wishlist" thread again?

I concur with Darius, were not a big seller after being squatted on, A few tweaks here and there and it could become sellable again.

I have been pondering a few ideas to submit to GW that I know will most likely be ignored and tossed in the trash as GW does best, It won't be a top tier, but can hold itself for the most part with out being force fed allies, except maybe in a few circumstances.Is it worth it to even bother or should I save them the effort of pushing a delete button?

[Zhukov]

Grey Knights is atually a fairly popular army since the the Mat Ward codex. They didn't invest into new models, which is why there was no point in putting more effort into our current codex either, hence we ended up with a bad codex which they could put out with little cost (for a quick cash-in and to get rid of the Ward codex). Next codex should be better along with new models, I'm sure. But yeah, it could take a while, or not, it's a bit pointless to try and predict what GW will do, they don't have a long term strategy it seems.

[jeffersonian000]

All I have to say is simply waiting to see what unlocks over the next 6 months to see how right or wrong I am. Two points in my favor are that I was spot on with my GK codex prediction, and that I was spot on with my reissued IK codex prediction.

 

Just say'ing.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I have been pondering a few ideas to submit to GW that I know will most likely be ignored and tossed in the trash as GW does best, It won't be a top tier, but can hold itself for the most part with out being force fed allies, except maybe in a few circumstances.Is it worth it to even bother or should I save them the effort of pushing a delete button?

 

(shrug) It'll make you feel good if nothing else. GW kinda does whatever they want though. They rarely bow to community pressure, and they often make changes entirely at odds with community wishes. Perhaps if you write something that sells the marketing angle of your changes (rather than just the in-game merits, which rarely interest GW as they don't take the rules seriously at all), you might have a shot. Big maybe though. 

All I have to say is simply waiting to see what unlocks over the next 6 months to see how right or wrong I am. Two points in my favor are that I was spot on with my GK codex prediction, and that I was spot on with my reissued IK codex prediction.

 

Broken clocks, twice a day ;)

 

Jokes aside, I agreed with you on a new codex for us in 7th. 5th edition was such a long time ago, and the game had moved on, we were overdue. We hadn't gotten Relics, racial Warlord traits, data-slate entries etc the whole 7th format of a codex hadn't been done to us. It has now, and thus we're unlikely to be touched again for some time. 

 

The re-do for Knight-Titans was something I did not expect, but I guess I underestimated GW's desire for quik bux. It's pretty cynical of them to re-release a codex with some minor tweaks to deal with Flyers, a few extra weapon options, and a new kit which is essentially the old kit with an upgrade sprue for the new variants (ie straight cash grab). Makes me wonder if you could be right about us getting the same deal. I don't think so though, simply because GW aren't going to give us any new units. Remember, they stripped options out of the old codex when we got the 7th edition book. Some of which we expected, others which have rendered already sub-par units into utter garbage (poor Purgators...'Astral Aim' wasn't even that powerful, but they lost that while Purifiers got a massive upgrade to their signature power). 

[angrom]

The game changer also is that to play deamons now the best is to play Space Marine!!

Why is that?

Because with the absurd librarian conclave (accumulate spells and harness power on 2+)

and the big mistake they made (librarian have access to deamonology in general) nothing about being restricted to sanctic)

you can now with limited investment in point (3 librarian) pop more than 500 pts of deamons each turn better than deamons army).

So fluff......