New SM codex and its repercussions

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The game changer also is that to play deamons now the best is to play Space Marine!!

Why is that?

Because with the absurd librarian conclave (accumulate spells and harness power on 2+)

and the big mistake they made (librarian have access to deamonology in general) nothing about being restricted to sanctic)

you can now with limited investment in point (3 librarian) pop more than 500 pts of deamons each turn better than deamons army).

So fluff......

 

You still Perils on doubles though ;) but yeah, it's pretty disgusting that Conclave formation. Been considering it for an Ally, attaching it to my Terminator squads. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Didn't roll the psychic power you wanted?

 

Don't worry!!  You've got another 2+ Librarians to roll for!  And you get to use any power they roll!!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What's even more abhorrent is that this fixes perfectly the issue that plagues psykers, which is rolling the bad powers on your main psyker, but awesome on the utility/chaff ones. Oh, and fixes casting issues. It makes WC2 a joke to get going, and even WC3 is pretty reliable when you only need 3 'anything but a 1' rolls. 

 

Oh boy. I just realised.

 

THIS STACKS WITH DOMINA LIBER

 

Hngggggghhhhhhh.....

 

Take your GK Libby with Liber. Roll on Divination anyway

 

Take your 3x TDA Mastery 2 Marine Libby's, take Sanctic on all

 

Attach to Terminators, land off no-scatter Deepstrike thanks to Scout teleport homers Turn 1

 

'Cleansing Flame' on 2x 2's, with re-rolls of 1

 

'Vortex' on 3x 2's, with re-rolls of 1

 

Throne, that's nuts. 

 

edit: Just don't roll doubles ;) 

[Gentlemanloser]

Winner winner chicken dinner!

GK, enabling abusive combo's since Matt Ward.

Who knows, if this gets out, we might actually get a new Codex before the end of the year....

Edit: RD, while GW have now 'fixed' ICs/Mixed units for Chapter Tactics, want to bet they won't do the same with Factions?

So a GK Librarian attached to a Ultramarine Librarian is a unit that is neither Faction SM, or Faction GK. Oh how detachments then break down.

As said unit no longer belongs to either detachment/formation they were purchased with.

/can of worms

Edit: This only stacks if the Librarians from the Formation are classed as a Unit with the GK Faction when attached to GK Terminators. Which is going to be a massive grey area.

[Gentlemanloser]

Scout Formation.

 

SM Scouts get Stealth until the move.  Plus Precision Shots for all (first turn only).

 

70 points (same cost as Tacs) for Scouts with 2+ Cover Save (and the same BS/WS/S/T as Tacs).

 

Yet with Infiltrate/Scout.

 

And folk think 35 point Terminators are a nice change. lol.  13 point 'Terminators' FTW.

 

The more I look at the Codex, the more farcical the whole deal becomes.

 

(I've faced Eldar Pathfinders for many, many years.  And know how obnoxious they are with a 2+ Cover save.  And their fragile T3...)

 

Edit: Tiggy giving Rending to the Vehicle Squadron of your choice....

 

Oh my GW, oh my...

[Shadrach03]

Been quite awhile since i've posted but here is a link for a web exclusive formation for space marines that looks just insane.

 

http://elite40k.blogspot.fr/2015/06/analysis-skyhammer-annihilation-force.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+elite40k+%28Elite+40%2C000%29&m=1

[jeffersonian000]

Is it odd that the new Skyhammer Strike Force makes me want to model up some "Deathwatch" Assault Marines, Grav Devs, and Pods? I could be talked away from my nearly pure Knights stance if I could add in some Ordo Xenos flavor.

 

SJ

[Zhukov]

Been quite awhile since i've posted but here is a link for a web exclusive formation for space marines that looks just insane.

 

=][= COPYRIGHTED INFO LINK REDACTED =][=

Well, incorporate this formation into any GK army and it is competitive lol. Pretty insane formation.

 

I might seriously go for this formation. It doesn't require full squads, so you can just take 2x5 Assault Marines for 170 points. Then include 2x10 Devastators with 4x Grav Cannon each in a Pod, which is 630. So 800 total. Leaves 1050 points for a GK cad with 3x Dreadknight. Should work well, dropping 8 relentless grav cannons (up to 4 targets) while 3 Dreadknights shunt forwards. It's way better than deepstriking some Terminator squads with an NSF detachment... which is kinda sad actually.

 

++ EDIT. Removed link to copyrighted content. -t ++

[Prot]

I like the formation but it will be hard to really play legally here as no one will actually 'own' the rules. It's good though... a bit dirty of GW to do it like this imho. But I don't think it's over the top. It reminds me a bit of Deathwing, but I still see the Assault Marine as a real stinker. 

 

This formation I see doing two things well:

- Destroying a pile of vehicles

- Using Assault Marines to kill bubble wrap with dual flamers + assault. And the Devs' taking down the Elite factor in the army.

 

I kept thinking though how weird would it be to play against that formation with my Grey Knights? I'd let them go first... he'd have to wait to turn 2 to bring everything in because I'd definitely be reserving my pants off.... it's an interesting match up.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just Insane.

 

First Turn DS with the three biggies;

 

1: DS scatter protection.  OK, this isn't no scatter, which would have been the daddy, but Drop Pods are good enough

2: Relentless for your Heavy Weapons.

3: Assault *right after* DS for your Assault Squads

 

Absolutely mad buffs.  Every imperial player, regardless of 'faction' would be mad not to run this.  It's so, so, so good.

 

/bonkers

 

 

 

Space Marines really needed a boost to get them back onto competitive tables, and the Skyhammer Annihilation Force just might be a big factor in their resurgence.

 

Yeah the new Dex is doing that just fine on it's own.  Doesn't need this uber formation to hold its hand...

 

Oh, the no overwatch is just crazy good as well.

 

 

 

It's way better than deepstriking some Terminator squads with an NSF detachment... which is kinda sad actually.

 

And once again this new release tramples all over our shtick.

[Prot]

Just Insane.

 

First Turn DS with the three biggies;

 

1: DS scatter protection.  OK, this isn't no scatter, which would have been the daddy, but Drop Pods are good enough

2: Relentless for your Heavy Weapons.

3: Assault *right after* DS for your Assault Squads

 

Absolutely mad buffs.  Every imperial player, regardless of 'faction' would be mad not to run this.  It's so, so, so good.

 

/bonkers

 

 

 

Space Marines really needed a boost to get them back onto competitive tables, and the Skyhammer Annihilation Force just might be a big factor in their resurgence.

 

Yeah the new Dex is doing that just fine on it's own.  Doesn't need this uber formation to hold its hand...

 

Oh, the no overwatch is just crazy good as well.

 

 

 

It's way better than deepstriking some Terminator squads with an NSF detachment... which is kinda sad actually.

 

And once again this new release tramples all over our shtick.

 

I knew this would happen, but I don't see it as THAT awesome.

 

Deathwing can already do this. They can declare turn 1 or 2.

 

Belial prevents scatter entirely with his squad of up to 10 Terminators. 

 

They TWIN LINK on the way in. They can Split Fire.

 

If I told you I just created such a formation you'd be calling it broken. It exists... it is Deathwing in its current form.

[Shadrach03]

But the assault squads are able to assault from deep strikeand re-roll hits and wounds against any unit that had gone to ground. Any wound caused by the devastators can cause the unit to go to ground so combat squad the devs and use the bolters to potentially lockdown 4 units.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Edit: RD, while GW have now 'fixed' ICs/Mixed units for Chapter Tactics, want to bet they won't do the same with Factions?

So a GK Librarian attached to a Ultramarine Librarian is a unit that is neither Faction SM, or Faction GK. Oh how detachments then break down.

As said unit no longer belongs to either detachment/formation they were purchased with.

/can of worms

Edit: This only stacks if the Librarians from the Formation are classed as a Unit with the GK Faction when attached to GK Terminators. Which is going to be a massive grey area.

Well they haven't FAQ'd the main rulebook at all. So until they do, it's legit. You can only make one Reserve roll for a mixed unit, and 'Rites' doesn't care if the unit contains other things, so long as they're Grey Knights and Deepstriking.

Chapter Tactics doesn't affect us, because we don't have that rule ;)

I knew this would happen, but I don't see it as THAT awesome.

Deathwing can already do this. They can declare turn 1 or 2.

Belial prevents scatter entirely with his squad of up to 10 Terminators.

They TWIN LINK on the way in. They can Split Fire.

If I told you I just created such a formation you'd be calling it broken. It exists... it is Deathwing in its current form.

You are joking right? Deathwing have literally no impact on the meta game right now, and the reasons you just described are why;

- They can declare half their units are making a Deathwing Assault (rounding up). Half. Not like us, who start rolling on Turn 1

- Belial is an overpriced hero who does land with no scatter and offers a teleport homer...but Scouts already let you do that anyway

- Twin-linked! Storm bolters....oh and the squad heavy weapon. Big deal. 'Prescience' lets you do that anyway

- Split Fire! Let's dilute our mediocre firepower even more

It doesn't even vaguely compare to Relentless Gravistators jumping out of drop pods, and Assault Marines charging the turn they arrive, all on Turn 1. I can't stress enough how utterly insane that is. GW have finally realised why every melee unit with Deepstrike sucks so hard. It's because they get shot at least once, potentially twice, before they can even attempt to charge. I mean, have you considered how OP it is to just attach combat characters to the Assault Marines? Combo this with the Angel Wing from Blood Angels, and you have another Deathstar build in the works. You don't even need Jump Infantry characters, anything with Deepstrike and IC status will do.

But the assault squads are able to assault from deep strikeand re-roll hits and wounds against any unit that had gone to ground. Any wound caused by the devastators can cause the unit to go to ground so combat squad the devs and use the bolters to potentially lockdown 4 units.

The suppression is nice, but even on 3D6, it's not terribly reliably. It's a nice little perk, and the fact it shuts down Overwatch if triggered has beautiful synergy with the Assault Marines charging off Deepstrike. Tau just get shafted hardcore by this formation, Supporting Fire can be completely negated if you hit 4 units at once and shut them down.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

It doesn't even vaguely compare to Relentless Gravistators jumping out of drop pods, and Assault Marines charging the turn they arrive, all on Turn 1. I can't stress enough how utterly insane that is. GW have finally realised why every melee unit with Deepstrike sucks so hard. It's because they get shot at least once, potentially twice, before they can even attempt to charge. I mean, have you considered how OP it is to just attach combat characters to the Assault Marines? Combo this with the Angel Wing from Blood Angels, and you have another Deathstar build in the works. You don't even need Jump Infantry characters, anything with Deepstrike and IC status will do. 

 

 

Any IC would not have permission to assault. Just like any other situation where one model in a unit cannot assault, it would prevent the unit as a whole from assaulting.

[Gentlemanloser]

I knew this would happen, but I don't see it as THAT awesome.

 

Deathwing can already do this. They can declare turn 1 or 2.

 

Belial prevents scatter entirely with his squad of up to 10 Terminators. 

 

They TWIN LINK on the way in. They can Split Fire.

 

If I told you I just created such a formation you'd be calling it broken. It exists... it is Deathwing in its current form.

 

Sorry Prot but you're underselling this formation.

 

The Devs drop, with Relentless Grav Cannons (so full Slavo shots).  Any unit hit *cannot overwatch* that turn (and might also be pinned).

 

You combat Squad the Devs so can do this to 4 enemy units.  And you can use Doctrines to give the Devs rerolls.

 

Then you Assault them, with no fear of Overwatch.  If only to tie the unit up in the enemies next turn.  The rerolls to hit are just gravy.

 

This formation is so potent its rediculous.

 

Deathwing can't compare with that.

 

 

 

Any IC would not have permission to assault. Just like any other situation where one model in a unit cannot assault, it would prevent the unit as a whole from assaulting.

 

Grey Area.  Attached ICs are considered part of the unit *for all rules purposes*, which would indluce the Formations benefit to Assault after DS.

 

If you think the IC would stop this, then they aren't part of the unit for *all rules purposes*.

 

The current IC rules are, bad.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Grey Area. Attached ICs are considered part of the unit *for all rules purposes*, which would indluce the Formations benefit to Assault after DS.

 

If you think the IC would stop this, then they aren't part of the unit for *all rules purposes*.

 

The current IC rules are, bad.

I don't think it is a grey area at all, rules do not generally confer from a unit to an attached IC unless they say so specifically. Unlike eg stealth there is nothing here saying that this rule confers from the assault marines to an IC so it does not.

 

If you are happy to let an opponent play otherwise then this formation really does push the boundaries of playability but I do not expect to ever have that problem in a game whether casual or tournament.

[Gentlemanloser]

So how does the Formation deploy if you attach an IC to it?

 

The 'Shock Deployment' SR would fail, if it isn't passed to an attached IC, and the Formation itself doesn't have any restrictions.

 

Again, the IC rules are bad.  They are contradictory and don't really fit with Formation/Detachment/Faction level rules.

 

Edit: As can be seen by the new SM Codex band aid to multiple Chapter Tactics.

 

Now, if GW did this as Rule Book level for multiple Detachment/Formation rules...

[Happy-inquisitor]

So how does the Formation deploy if you attach an IC to it?

 

The 'Shock Deployment' SR would fail, if it isn't passed to an attached IC, and the Formation itself doesn't have any restrictions.

 

Again, the IC rules are bad.  They are contradictory and don't really fit with Formation/Detachment/Faction level rules.

 

Edit: As can be seen by the new SM Codex band aid to multiple Chapter Tactics.

 

Now, if GW did this as Rule Book level for multiple Detachment/Formation rules...

 

It is covered in the reserve rules under how to handle mixed units. The whole unit comes in at once. You do not need any abstract theory of how rules convey from formations to characters, just follow the rule for the formation and then follow the rule for mixed units all arriving at once.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mixed units don't cover it, when the Shock Deployment rule doesn't apply to any attached ICs...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

That's the real issue. GW never thought through how Allies would work in practice. We have very clear rules about how USR's and special rules apply between a unit and attached characters. However, formation and detachment bonuses are not applied in that manner. They're applied to all units in a detachment, and there is absolutely no guidance on how that works, especially when it comes to Reserves. RAW, units in Reserve have to be rolled for as a whole, hence 'Rites' transfers etc. 

 

The new Marine book has invalidate combining Chapter Tactics. This may be a sign of things to come. However, that assumes GW will FAQ the main rulebook before 8th edition. My hopes of that happening are approximately zero. I mean, our codex still has no FAQ, so apparently it's perfect ;)

[Prot]

Rules for each formation are normally only allowed within that formation. The only exception I can think of is the Gladius which is very similar to the Decurion, in that you can indeed treat all the 'sub formations' as one singular detachment. This is usually not the case, but it explicitly written out in the explanation of the Gladius (as it is with the Decurion.)

 

My undestanding, as I read it, is Shock deployment is a rule within the Formation only. It can't be 'shared' outside the formation period. The only way around it that I know of is "IF" this was in fact also considered an Auxiliary formation to the Gladius.

 

On the Librarius stuff:
Please keep in mind the Librarius Conclave can't know all of each other's powers. Keep in mind also the 'appointed' Librarian is the only one able to cast powers if you want to use the 2+ rule (provided you have others within 12").

 

Otherwise, yes, they can all cast powers as you normally would, but you'd never do Daemonology in this manner because your head would explode.

 

Also, this really hasn't been viewed as a huge deal in the past... .Dark Angels have had the conclave since December and I started a post on it many months ago and several people tried making it work to mixed results. The problem is/was that it's hard to fit into a lot of armies.

 

I'll let you guys get back to whatever this thread has become. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My undestanding, as I read it, is Shock deployment is a rule within the Formation only. It can't be 'shared' outside the formation period. The only way around it that I know of is "IF" this was in fact also considered an Auxiliary formation to the Gladius.

 

Yes, and that's all fine. But what happens when you attach say GK characters to it? The Assault Marines don't stop being part of the Skyhammer, because the Chapter Tactics rule doesn't apply (GK don't have it). The Grand Master/Librarian is still part of the Nemesis Strikeforce, that doesn't change either. See what I mean? Endless grey. All because GW can't provide clear rules about how Allies work across detachments and formations. 

Please keep in mind the Librarius Conclave can't know all of each other's powers. Keep in mind also the 'appointed' Librarian is the only one able to cast powers if you want to use the 2+ rule (provided you have others within 12").

 

Otherwise, yes, they can all cast powers as you normally would, but you'd never do Daemonology in this manner because your head would explode.

 

Which is why people are probably going to take Tiggy for the 'head' Librarian of the formation. He re-rolls psychic tests, so you don't even need the Liber nearby. 

Also, this really hasn't been viewed as a huge deal in the past... .Dark Angels have had the conclave since December and I started a post on it many months ago and several people tried making it work to mixed results. The problem is/was that it's hard to fit into a lot of armies.

 

Yeah but no one cares about DA ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

My undestanding, as I read it, is Shock deployment is a rule within the Formation only. It can't be 'shared' outside the formation period.

 

Prot, do you think the Assault Marines part of a Skyhammer (with an attached non SM IC) would lose Shock Deployment?  Would the formation as a whole lose it (as they all come in together)?  Or just the unit with the non SM attached IC?  Could you stick a non SM IC in one of the Devs Drop Pods?  How would that effect the formation?

 

Getting back tot he formation as a whole, Multi Melta's on the Devs, or Grav Cannons?  Personally, I'm Grav all the way. 

 

If we're looking to combo this with our NSF, I'd rather have them come in turn 2.

 

That way, you can shunt you 2+ NDK first turn, then second turn the Skyhammer comes in, no overwatches 4 squads, and the NDK + Assault chaff charge in safety.

 

No more Alpha Strike!  Beta Strike is where it's at! :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

That still leaves your opponent with an entire turn to re position, shoot and otherwise foil your Turn 2 landing. No bueno. 

 

Turn 1 is where it's at man. That way, they have no chance of moving, or even shooting (if they don't have much Interceptor, which still a lot of armies do not bother with). Tie up the biggest shooting threats with the Assault Marines (probably wanna take fists on the Sarges to punch tanks to death etc), suppress whatever else with Relentless Gravistators, shoot up the rest of their army with Terminators and Dreadknights. Turn 2, mop up the remnants with melee. Scary and pretty hard to counter without a lot of quality Interceptor or Coteaz (which you can mitigate by landing outside his 12" 'spidey-sense' aura). 

[Prot]

My undestanding, as I read it, is Shock deployment is a rule within the Formation only. It can't be 'shared' outside the formation period. The only way around it that I know of is "IF" this was in fact also considered an Auxiliary formation to the Gladius.

Yes, and that's all fine. But what happens when you attach say GK characters to it? The Assault Marines don't stop being part of the Skyhammer, because the Chapter Tactics rule doesn't apply (GK don't have it). The Grand Master/Librarian is still part of the Nemesis Strikeforce, that doesn't change either. See what I mean? Endless grey. All because GW can't provide clear rules about how Allies work across detachments and formations.

+ The rules are clear to me. The formation rules (forget chapter tactics) do not extend outside the formation. Again this is abundantly clear in the Gladius wording (Only sub formations within it can 'share' rules). There is exactly like taking an independent character and attaching him to a unit with Infiltrate. The squad cannot infiltrate now. (Unless the IC had it to begin with.)

Please keep in mind the Librarius Conclave can't know all of each other's powers. Keep in mind also the 'appointed' Librarian is the only one able to cast powers if you want to use the 2+ rule (provided you have others within 12").

Otherwise, yes, they can all cast powers as you normally would, but you'd never do Daemonology in this manner because your head would explode.

Which is why people are probably going to take Tiggy for the 'head' Librarian of the formation. He re-rolls psychic tests, so you don't even need the Liber nearby.

+ Of course they'll take Tiggy.... why the heck wouldn't they? lol

Also, this really hasn't been viewed as a huge deal in the past... .Dark Angels have had the conclave since December and I started a post on it many months ago and several people tried making it work to mixed results. The problem is/was that it's hard to fit into a lot of armies.

Yeah but no one cares about DA

+ Ouch. Be nice!

My undestanding, as I read it, is Shock deployment is a rule within the Formation only. It can't be 'shared' outside the formation period.

Prot, do you think the Assault Marines part of a Skyhammer (with an attached non SM IC) would lose Shock Deployment? Would the formation as a whole lose it (as they all come in together)? Or just the unit with the non SM attached IC? Could you stick a non SM IC in one of the Devs Drop Pods? How would that effect the formation?

Getting back tot he formation as a whole, Multi Melta's on the Devs, or Grav Cannons? Personally, I'm Grav all the way.

If we're looking to combo this with our NSF, I'd rather have them come in turn 2.

That way, you can shunt you 2+ NDK first turn, then second turn the Skyhammer comes in, no overwatches 4 squads, and the NDK + Assault chaff charge in safety.

No more Alpha Strike! Beta Strike is where it's at!

- You definitely lose Shock Deployment. There's no question. Formation rules are clear to me on this.

- On grav vs MM? Personally because this is the meat and potatoes, I'd go both per squad, and combat them out. Or one + one of each.

I probably won't play this formation... it's just really not plausible in our local events since most require 'proper' documentation of the rules you're bringing. (IE: no low rez ripped off GIF on a phone allowed typically.)