Imperial Knight jurisdiction

[Frater Cornelius]

Would it be feasible that a Baron or the High King of an Imperial Knight House could be named High Commander of a Crusade or Liberation Fleet?

[jeffersonian000]

Sure.

 

SJ

[Frater Cornelius]

That was anti-climatic and direct to the point :D Well, I do not know anything that would contradict it. They usually choose ths biggest, baddest and loyalest around when making any kind of field trip across the galaxy.

[jeffersonian000]

The dude or dudette in charge is the one with the Imperisl mandate to achieve the goal of the campaign. Most of the time it's an Imperial Lord Commander, or a Chapter Master. Other times it's an Inquistor, a Tech Priest Dominus, or a Canoness. Rarely still it's a Rogue Trader, or a Noble Pilot. 40k is what you make of it.

 

SJ

[N1SB]

Hi guys, it turns out I've come across this issue in a Dark Heresy RPG campaign.

 

Everything said so far is true IMHO.  People in certain positions are more likely to be voted the overall Commander of a crusade, campaign, etc.  In theory, it does boil down to:

 

 

 

They usually choose the biggest, baddest and loyalest around when making any kind of field trip across the galaxy.

 

 

In practice, though, how is this decided?  What metric is used to measure the biggest, baddest, loyalest?

 

The short answer is: politics is involved.  The long answer is: A LOT of politics is involved.

 

There is a negotiation process.  How much does each leader involved want to take command?  What glory/rewards can they gain, what do they need to trade in favours, what favours do they actually have to trade, who already owes allegiance to whom, what's the level of trust between each party.  Even if a party knows they have no chance to take overall command, they would offer their support to someone else...whoever offers them the best deal for their vote.  Conversely, for an operation that is doomed to fail, people would manipulate the situation so anyone but them would be in charge, so they don't take the blame.

 

With that dynamic in mind, how does a Baron or High King of a Knight Household fare?  Very well, it turns out.

 

It's what they can offer.  Obviously, they can offer their Knights in combat.  Moreover, in addition to their nobility status as Knight pilots, they're also often governors of their worlds, so they can provide supplies or at least a base for the rest of the crusade/campaign army to re-supply.  Then, because they started out as pilots and ended up as planetary leaders in many cases, they're probably at the political games.  To be clear, it's not that they walk into a meeting IN their Knight Titan and say, "I'm the boss."  It's that in the negotiation process, they have more chips to barter with, and are probably pretty decent at bartering.

 

If I were to rank the likelihood of a Knight Household would take command of a military campaign, IMHO it'd be right behind an Astra Militarum Lord Commander or Chapter Master.  It's because they have the military credentials and the military might to back it up as a Knight pilot.  Inquisitors, Tech Priest Domini, Canonesses, Rogue Traders, Nobilis Pilots, all have authourity and clout and knowledge and power, but not so much in military areas.

 

This is just IMHO, based on playing, learning, and analysing these dynamics in a Dark Heresy campaign.

[Kilofix]

Lots of fluff like the Siege of Vraks campaign background, as well as the Knights of the Imperium, Titanicus, Mechanicum, etc. novels all depict the various factions jockeying for control.

 

As Not 1 Step mentioned - it is about politics and clout.

 

A Baron certainly would have clout with a whole Knight world (or more) under his control.

[Frater Cornelius]

Thanks, guys. Awesome info. One step closer to having a Knight House up and running.

[Ammonius]

Excellent question, and awesome answers!

 

 

*snip*.  To be clear, it's not that they walk into a meeting IN their Knight Titan and say, "I'm the boss."  *snip*

I would love to see a scene where a task force is being assembled, and a Baron invites all the leaders to his homeworld to discuss organization. And then, within the extra-large halls of the household's keep, he does exactly this :)

 

As has been said, the Galaxy is a big place. There are no doubt plenty of both Knight Barons who work towards being in charge of their current military operation, and those who just want to know where the next enemy is.

[Kilofix]

Excellent question, and awesome answers!

 

 

 

*snip*.  To be clear, it's not that they walk into a meeting IN their Knight Titan and say, "I'm the boss."  *snip*

 

I would love to see a scene where a task force is being assembled, and a Baron invites all the leaders to his homeworld to discuss organization. And then, within the extra-large halls of the household's keep, he does exactly this :)

 

As has been said, the Galaxy is a big place. There are no doubt plenty of both Knight Barons who work towards being in charge of their current military operation, and those who just want to know where the next enemy is.

Well actually, at the end of Knights of the Imperium, House Cadmus did walk into a "meeting" with the Mechanicus in their Knight Titans.

[N1SB]

 I stand corrected.  As a thought exercise, I considered this scenario.

 

A Baron, on the eve of a massive campaign during these leadership negotiations, holds a ball.

 

The different parties of the campaign...the Imperial Guard officers, the highest ranking priests, etc., show up as a courtesy, or they heard he has an exquisite wine cellar at least.  There's a lot of pomp & circumstance, fanfares, manservants everywhere, each person announced.  It's a swanky affair, so even for the most devout flagellants who dine on nought but gruel and stale bread, it is the finest gruel and carefully aged bread money can afford.

 

And there's a lot of fuss over seating protocol, who's sitting next to whomever they would find the conversation most delightful, a careful hierarchy based on social/military/religious standing (or seating), with the most likely candidates to take charge of the campaign at the keep's high table by the huge gothic balcony, illuminated by the twin moons of the planet.  Then, in their suede carefully worn golden chairs, they realise something:

 

There is no seat for the host.

 

It is then they hear the thundering footsteps of a Knight Titan that approaches the grand balcony with a sound of roaring steel.  The carapace is open to show the Baron in the Knight's throne, plugged in...and he doesn't say, "I'm the boss."  Instead, he's very modest, profusely apologising for the delay as he had to check in on the kitchen, to accommodate the tastes of all his guests, one has to keep an eye on the help you know, haha.  But his message is clear:

 

No matter how comfortable your chair is, I'm the one sitting in a Knight Titan...and you are not.

 

Thinking this is kind of what you guys are discussing.

[Frater Cornelius]

I was actually imagening a meeting in the gov sector of a planet to plan a Crusade. Suddenly, the walls break down and a Knight flies in Cool Aid style going OH YEAH! After that, I doubt anyone will doubt his leadership but probably question his respect for Imperial assets :D

 

@ 1stepback - I doubt that it would that sort of scenario. If they have no need to sit the meeting in IK, I doubt they would do it. Besides, how will he reach for his drink? :D

 

One thing I am wondering though. What sort of negotiations and political shenanigans can be involved when launching a Crusade or mobilising a Liberation Fleet. They usually get started by some very high ranking character or inquisitor, or as part of an emergency. When a sector is taken by the Tau or Chaos, I doubt anyone wants to waste time negotiating. I am not particularly enlightened about 40k politics though, so some clarification would be awesome, lest I have Knights running around proclaiming Crusades left and right :D

Edited June 12, 2015 by Immersturm

[jeffersonian000]

The Knight Worlds are effectively a third Human empire within the Galaxy, aligned with the Mechanicum and Imperium via trade agreements and mutual defense pacts. We see Knights riding host with the Titan Legions, supporting the Imperial Army, and heading their own crusades. They fight along side the Astartes, they defend their own worlds, and they respond to the call of other worlds to for defense.

 

As in, a High King or Baron has the command of a world of resources, and victory favors the bold.

 

SJ

[SW1]

A household may not just have a planet to fall back on. They may very well have a full system of however many planets. Given the right mix of resources they could run their own campaign. Any additional elements may very well have invited themselves to the show especially if there's something in it for themselves.

[Frater Cornelius]

Currently, I am fervently pursuing my hobby of medieval history, religious wars, religion and crusades. I am getting more insight how the Crusades functioned and I thinknI can build fairly good analogies with 40k. I am planning to make a unique development for my Knight House from a regular House to a militaristic, religious order, akin to Templars. After all, they wield two of the greatest weapons, faith in one hand and wealth in the other.

[Battybattybats]

Remember the partners of Knight pilots are every bit the political-warriors that the Knight pilots are military ones. This is shown well in the Knights of the Imperium novel. So how often do Barons or High Kings lead crusades? About as often as their Baroness or Princess deems it the best course of action, after all sometimes it's best not to be the figurehead in the lead. But when they are not you can be sure that the Consort of the Knights are still usually the powers behind whoever else is, and when the High King is in command anyone jockeying to replace them will have a fight on their hands in the shadows behind the throne.

[Kilofix]

If I recall right; historically, even the Noble members of the 'monastic' / Crusade Knight Orders (like Templars, Hospitalliers, etc.) themselves were poor as they had to take Vows of Poverty / Piety and all. Most, if not all, of their money and holdings went to the Order itself which was controlled by their GMs, or to the Church. It was like some Ponzi scheme of duty and piety for salvation, not that their original and underlying intentions weren't noble.

 

This was slightly different than the (non-Crusade) traditional structure where Nobles retained and controlled some portion of wealth and holdings themselves.

 

Either way, it can be fit into the 40K fluff, as the Imperial Knight Houses themselves will undoubtedly be wealthy. But you may have to decide if the individual Nobles themselves are more monastic per the Crusades or if they have their own fiefdoms.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes, they took a vow or poverty. However, they raided a lot of Muslim caravans and became extremely rich. In the 13th century, they made the first internations banks. Individually they may have been poor, but the order was rich as hell. Edited June 17, 2015 by Immersturm

[jeffersonian000]

An themed army of Knights, Black Templers, and Sisters of Battle, with Electro Priests and the odd Skitarii would look fabulous if modeled and painted in a unifying medieval crusader theme.

 

SJ

[Frater Cornelius]

That is somewhat the plan. I use DA though. RW as mounted knights, GW as dismounted knights and DW as elite knights while the IK forms the highest ranks of Grand Masters and Seneschals. I will be using regular humans that use custom AdMech exoskeletons commissioned by the Knight House in exchange for some Dark Age knowledge they had in their possession but had little use for.

That is the plan for now. I just want to focus on the order for now as opposed to all the other elements a crusade would involve.

[Battybattybats]

Yes, they took a vow or poverty. However, they raided a lot of Muslim caravans and became extremely rich. In the 13th century, they made the first internations banks. Individually they may have been poor, but the order was rich as hell.

 

One of the ways the orders became rich was by guaranteeing ransoms, which is how they formed the bank. If a knight was captured he could be handed back to his family for a set value based on rank, but the Knight had to hope that his family would actually pay the money, and they might prefer the Knight get killed instead. If he gave the money in advance to the Templars with some extra in advance, they would cough up the dough later if he got captured so he didn't have to worry about a younger brother deciding inheriting was better than paying. With a very large amount of Europes wealthy nobles off crusading that's a lot of money in Templar hands which is why the Templars were eventually raided and shattered so the French could get the cash.

 

They became rich because Knights feared the greed of their siblings (or that the ransom money would take too long to get there) and were undone because of a nobles greed.

 

That could be a cool basis of a Narrative Campaign in 40k, though 40k enemies don't ransom of course.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, hence I will adjust the background to be in line with a Knight Order in 40k ;)

[CommodusXIII]

Instead of ransom, what about repair?

 

If this Household now has a suitably vague bit of esoteric Dark Age knowledge, perhaps they can offer their services to other Knight houses. Pay up in Imperial credits, resources, manpower tithes, etc. and we'll rebuild your Knight chassis if they're destroyed in battle. There's probably a cartload of parts on those things that no one understands anymore and are simply salvaged and repurposed.

 

Sounds like something the AdMech would love to get their hands on, especially from a bunch of no-good Daemon worshippers like you. Don't bother denying it - we have all the evidence we need, fresh brewed this morning.

Edited June 18, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[Battybattybats]

Or it could be territory. If the Knights control several worlds bordering the territory being liberated the people being liberated might rather be part of the Knights jurisdiction expanding the Knights independent territory into a region the Imperium wanted. Even if the Knights recognized the Imperial claim and volunteered just to patrol the territory to keep the locals happy many in the Imperium might see that as enough of a threat that they might act, even though it may threaten the alliance with many other Knight houses... hmm... that could get into a Badab War level mess but with Knights... very cool.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ CommodusXIII - We do not worship Daemons. We just ask them questions. While we are on the subject, why don't you enter this dungeon over here so that we can have a friendly little chat. There is some nice archeotech in there as well ;)

 

There are some solid ideas here. Good job. However, I need to be careful not to slip too far into Templar or religious extremist territory. In the end, I want a monastic-ish chivalric order with a religious tone. The difference is subtle but in my head there is somewhat of a distinction.

[Vel'Cona]

Asking Daemons questions is HERESY!!! 

 

Except for the Inquisition, I guess.