Conversion fields = liability?

[Terminus]

So I had a terrible game today where I failed 5(!) blind tests for the rest of the unit when my Alphas/Princeps tanked a hit. And this is with Skitarii/Sicarians. I see quite a few builds using Kastelan robots (or the formation) with conversion fields on the priests. I imagine if you ever use the fields, that I2 on the robots will make you very sad.

[Brother Amarel]

Personally I tend to avoid the Conversion Field on anything apart from Sicarians. I don't think it's generally worth the risk on anything with a lower Initiative (although it might be worth it on a min-naked Vanguard whose purpose is to survive long enough to get into combat and reduce Toughness.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Same here.

I think it works best with the Infiltrators. Ini 4 + reroll should be ok most of the time and enemy unit get -1 Ini because of the Aura.

Ruststalkers will be fine as well.

 

Everything else with Ini 3 is to risky in my opinion.

[Vel'Cona]

Just gonna throw it out there, you were taking your re-rolls, right?  I mean, it's reasonable to expect you'd fail two in a row occasionally, but that sounds like pretty awful luck for the Sicarians.

 

That said, on any other Skitarii/CultMech unit, I wouldn't even consider them.  Nearly everything else in these books has In 3 or worse, and the 4++ isn't worth the chance of completely nerfing your shooting phase for that unit's next turn.  5++ isn't amazing, but the Refractor Field is only 5 points and the majority of our characters seem to carry one anyway.

[mmimzie]

It could get pretty bad. i think it depends on your list??/ I run Cohort cybernetica, and skitarri. So my  army foot print is as big as maybe an all skitarii heavy on troops would be. So everyone has lots of space. my ironstriders are usualy in the back of my enemy deployment trying to take pot shots. robots are as middle fields as ifeel comfortable, and my 2 or 3 vanguard units  have all of left and right field to the mselve (1500 point games i should say). So no one is every really close to themselve.

 

If you are afraid of the blind test you could look out sir to another model or take a different save.

[Mushkilla]

Blind tests are made per unit not per model. The initiative test is also taken using the highest initiative in the unit so robots would test at I3 thanks to the datasmith.

[mmimzie]

Blind tests are made per unit not per model. The initiative test is also taken using the highest initiative in the unit so robots would test at I3 thanks to the datasmith.

When I said look out sure to another model. I was meaning that you avoid trying to use the conversion shield if a blind test will ruin your turn more than the shooting the unit is taking.

 

The initiative thing is interest. For some reason I felt like it was the model with the lowest of that stay took the test.

[Terminus]

Normally I don't pay for Conversion Fields, but they were free in the formation so I handed them out like Halloween candy. Oopsies. Initiative 4 with reroll is still a ~11% chance of failing, but I think a lot of it was my own fault with positioning.

 

I liked it on the Infiltrators even though they failed their test, since the -1 initiative meant the opponent failed theirs too, and the Infiltrators had already tased a quarter of them to death. It did suck that the ruststalkers poised to attack the same unit got clipped too and also failed their test. We couldn't figure out if Blind + initiative debuff meant he was at WS0, so we played it as WS1 and flailed at each other like a bunch of imbeciles. Dunestrider rule is a big change that takes getting used to.

 

So yeah, I agree with everyone that it makes sense on the Sicarians if you have the spare points. Vanguard with Pater Radium could also be worthwhile, since you don't mind if they get engaged in melee usually.

[Vel'Cona]

Hmm, do enemies lose the -1 Toughness for Rad Saturation when taking their Pater Radium Toughness test or is that on base Toughness? I can't remember off the top of my head (rulebook is at home).

[Cactus]

The rule just calls for a toughness test so the -1 applies.

[MaulerUK]

Blind tests are per unit at highest Init and the bearer's unit doesn't have to take the test as they auto-pass as per the Blind USR in the BRB.

 

Conversion Fields are amazing, I stick them on my Sicarians & Vanguard as I expect them to get into combat at some point and making opponents hit on 5s and your unit on 3s gives a massive advantage.  The 4++ save is excellent and against opponents with dire Initiative like Orks & Necrons they are astoundingly effective.  Infiltrators become a serious menace to anything from to blobs AV12 walkers when fielded with tasers and CFields thanks to throwing a good amount of dice at the target while the target flails about and has trouble hitting them back.  Do it vs a Deff Dread and see what I mean as you hit first on 3s and glance it's front armour to bits with S6.  My mate was amazed after my 5-strong Infiltrators took out three Ork bikers, he counter-charged with a Deff Dread, I messed my pantaloons but had 2 Inifiltrators survive the combat after passing invuln saves on the CField and reduced his Deff Dread to a flailing joke.

 

Very underrated!

[Commander Dawnstar]

While I can see where you're coming from, I'm certainly not in a place where I would feel comfortable using that interpretation in my own games.

 

The Blind rule states that "Should the attacking unit hit themselves, we assume they are prepared and that they automatically pass the test," while the Conversion Field says that "all units within D6" of the bearer must test as if they had been hit by a weapon with the Blind special rule." So what is it that makes the bearer of the Conversion Field the attacking unit in this instance?

 

I'm certainly open to persuasion, I just feel that there's too much ambiguity to state that the model that made the save is immune when they didn't specifically make an attack.

[Terminus]

If the unit auto-passes, that's much better, and yes, probably a definite purchase on any melee-bound unit.

 

The ambiguity comes in whether the conversion field model can be considered the attacking unit. It makes sense, since the flash comes from the conversion field. Is there a case in 40K where something inflicts hits without being an attack?

 

If the wearer is the attacking model, then no problem. "Should the attacking unit hit themselves" ... "must test as if they had been hit". The Princeps is part of the unit, so they are the attacking unit. Models are treated as if they are hit, so the unit hit themselves and are immune.

 

If they are not the attacking unit, then even the wearer is not safe, unless he somehow is not within D6" of himself.

[mmimzie]

If the unit auto-passes, that's much better, and yes, probably a definite purchase on any melee-bound unit.

 

The ambiguity comes in whether the conversion field model can be considered the attacking unit. It makes sense, since the flash comes from the conversion field. Is there a case in 40K where something inflicts hits without being an attack?

 

If the wearer is the attacking model, then no problem. "Should the attacking unit hit themselves" ... "must test as if they had been hit". The Princeps is part of the unit, so they are the attacking unit. Models are treated as if they are hit, so the unit hit themselves and are immune.

 

If they are not the attacking unit, then even the wearer is not safe, unless he somehow is not within D6" of himself.

I didn't read it this way, but after looking at it. It does kind of make since this is the case. Otherwise the guy causing the blind is blinding himself. Heck you could maybe even argue that since all the initiatives are the same you decided to take the test on his initiative. In which he'd auto pass it because he is the one taking the test are part of the affected unit.

 

edit: few more BRB things that make it kind of clearer... kinda...

 

'independent character is part of a unit for all rules purposes' So he is infact hitting himself (and my extension) his units with blind and thus would auto pass it??

 

That said though datasmiths, alphas, and princeps aren't even independent so effectively are just another bit of the unit. So here is another rules question to kind of think about:

 

let's say i have a ranger unit who decides to only shoot with it's alpha at a katastelan. The shot bounes back. The model shot the kastelans, but the unit gets hit, and the first model in that unit to the kastastelans would be removed. So, any model in a unit doing an attack against something is affectively the unit going an attack.

 

So the ranger is attacking it's own unit with the blind, but the dominus took over the units brain and made it get down. He may have also had time to make other units take cover as well which is evident by the reroll.

 

interesting

[Commander Dawnstar]

So to follow up on this question: Would a unit Blinded within range of Sicarian Infiltrators' Neurostatic Aura become Weapon Skill 0?

 

I ask because the Aura's rules say nothing about lowering the stat to a minimum of 1.

[mmimzie]

So to follow up on this question: Would a unit Blinded within range of Sicarian Infiltrators' Neurostatic Aura become Weapon Skill 0?

 

I ask because the Aura's rules say nothing about lowering the stat to a minimum of 1.

i'd say it makes a very nice arguement for reducing it to 0.

 

depend on how you think of things taking affect. You could think of it as everything is cumulative. Soo the enemy is blinded and at -1. 

 

Or you could think of affects taking place at a time. Basicly your sicarians move into 6" reduce the weapon skill by 1. Then they get shot at and the enemy ends up blinded by your invuln save so then it goes to down by one. Technically you've already applied the -1 to weapon skill so you could really do it again.

 

I think it's quite up in the air.

[ronin_cse]

Blind tests are per unit at highest Init and the bearer's unit doesn't have to take the test as they auto-pass as per the Blind USR in the BRB.

 

Conversion Fields are amazing, I stick them on my Sicarians & Vanguard as I expect them to get into combat at some point and making opponents hit on 5s and your unit on 3s gives a massive advantage.  The 4++ save is excellent and against opponents with dire Initiative like Orks & Necrons they are astoundingly effective.  Infiltrators become a serious menace to anything from to blobs AV12 walkers when fielded with tasers and CFields thanks to throwing a good amount of dice at the target while the target flails about and has trouble hitting them back.  Do it vs a Deff Dread and see what I mean as you hit first on 3s and glance it's front armour to bits with S6.  My mate was amazed after my 5-strong Infiltrators took out three Ork bikers, he counter-charged with a Deff Dread, I messed my pantaloons but had 2 Inifiltrators survive the combat after passing invuln saves on the CField and reduced his Deff Dread to a flailing joke.

 

Very underrated!

 

Oh wow thank you! I totally forgot about the unit auto-passing if it tries to blind itself and I absolutely agree with your interpretation of this. This changed conversion fields from sometimes take on Sicarians and never take on I3 stuff to almost always take for me, ESPECIALLY on the tech priest...well maybe, I plan on having him repair an IK most of the time :/

[mmimzie]

 

 

Blind tests are per unit at highest Init and the bearer's unit doesn't have to take the test as they auto-pass as per the Blind USR in the BRB.

 

Conversion Fields are amazing, I stick them on my Sicarians & Vanguard as I expect them to get into combat at some point and making opponents hit on 5s and your unit on 3s gives a massive advantage. The 4++ save is excellent and against opponents with dire Initiative like Orks & Necrons they are astoundingly effective. Infiltrators become a serious menace to anything from to blobs AV12 walkers when fielded with tasers and CFields thanks to throwing a good amount of dice at the target while the target flails about and has trouble hitting them back. Do it vs a Deff Dread and see what I mean as you hit first on 3s and glance it's front armour to bits with S6. My mate was amazed after my 5-strong Infiltrators took out three Ork bikers, he counter-charged with a Deff Dread, I messed my pantaloons but had 2 Inifiltrators survive the combat after passing invuln saves on the CField and reduced his Deff Dread to a flailing joke.

 

Very underrated!

Oh wow thank you! I totally forgot about the unit auto-passing if it tries to blind itself and I absolutely agree with your interpretation of this. This changed conversion fields from sometimes take on Sicarians and never take on I3 stuff to almost always take for me, ESPECIALLY on the tech priest...well maybe, I plan on having him repair an IK most of the time :/

If your repairing an IK statsis field might be alright. You could even auto regroup with the fearless canticle.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I think it's quite up in the air.

Actually I found another thread on this forum that cleared that particular angle up pretty well. When it comes to modifying stats you apply multipliers, then addition or subtraction and only then do you apply effects that 'set' a statistic to a particular value. What that means is that in this case is that the Neurostatic Aura is applied to the unit's base Weapon Skill and only afterwards does the Blind effect set it down to 1, leaving them with Weapon Skill 1 for the subsequent turn.

[mmimzie]

 

 

 

I think it's quite up in the air.

Actually I found another thread on this forum that cleared that particular angle up pretty well. When it comes to modifying stats you apply multipliers, then addition or subtraction and only then do you apply effects that 'set' a statistic to a particular value. What that means is that in this case is that the Neurostatic Aura is applied to the unit's base Weapon Skill and only afterwards does the Blind effect set it down to 1, leaving them with Weapon Skill 1 for the subsequent turn.

That's quite a logical way to go about it, but I don't think the rules actually state that anywhere???

[Commander Dawnstar]

That's quite a logical way to go about it, but I don't think the rules actually state that anywhere???

It's literally on the first page of the Core Rules under the "Multiple Modifiers" header.

[Terminus]

So now that we've decided (let's hope our opponents agree) that the unit auto-passes its own blind test (making this a must-take item on Sicarians and maybe even Vanguard), what other gear do you guys give your Vanguard Alphas?  On my arc rifle units, I've pretty much settled on arc pistol and taser. Pistol is self-explanatory, and with their rad saturation, the S5 will be wounding on 2+ against Marines and insta-killing T3 stuff.  3 attacks that double on 6s isn't bad at all.

 

Now that I've given up on ever getting a shot off with the Phosphoenix, I don't know what to do with the Alphas of my Plasma Caliver unit. Just leave him with the carbine?

[MaulerUK]

While I can see where you're coming from, I'm certainly not in a place where I would feel comfortable using that interpretation in my own games.

 

The Blind rule states that "Should the attacking unit hit themselves, we assume they are prepared and that they automatically pass the test," while the Conversion Field says that "all units within D6" of the bearer must test as if they had been hit by a weapon with the Blind special rule." So what is it that makes the bearer of the Conversion Field the attacking unit in this instance?

 

I'm certainly open to persuasion, I just feel that there's too much ambiguity to state that the model that made the save is immune when they didn't specifically make an attack.

 

 

If the unit auto-passes, that's much better, and yes, probably a definite purchase on any melee-bound unit.

 

The ambiguity comes in whether the conversion field model can be considered the attacking unit. It makes sense, since the flash comes from the conversion field. Is there a case in 40K where something inflicts hits without being an attack?

 

If the wearer is the attacking model, then no problem. "Should the attacking unit hit themselves" ... "must test as if they had been hit". The Princeps is part of the unit, so they are the attacking unit. Models are treated as if they are hit, so the unit hit themselves and are immune.

 

If they are not the attacking unit, then even the wearer is not safe, unless he somehow is not within D6" of himself.

 

Mechanics-wise I think it's very simple:

 

CField passes save -> Every unit within 6" makes a Blind test -> Blind test caused by Character in unit -> Character has hit their own unit with a Blind weapon -> Wearer's unit auto-passes test as per the BRB Blind USR.

 

If the unit isn't included in the "every unit within D6" then it doesn't have to take the test.  Either way IMO they're fine and it's only really an issue if you're multi-assaulting something with more than one unit and even then with a re-roll most Ad Mech units should pass (statistically).