Remus Ventanus. Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Hello all, First if this is not in the right section, would a mod please re direct this. Thanks Anyways, what does everyone think of the current state of Loken? I am personally glad he is alive....I know some people dont like the fact he survived, and if it had been any other character i too may have been reserved about the whole thing, but since it is Loken, i am glad to see him back. The other question is what do we think his fate will be? I think he will Kill aximand, and then be killed by Horus during the siege on the Vengeful spirit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I feel like his character was more meaningful and his death more powerful before he was brought back to life. It made the Heresy that much deeper because so many of these honorable and good marines were wiped out. Now he's back and dealing with all this issues and it's slightly boring to me. And he totally could have been written out of 'Vengeful Spirit' without any loss to the story. As for his eventual future I wouldn't be shocked seeing him become one of the founders of the Grey Knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I liked him a lot in the opening trilogy. I haven't actually read/listened to his 'ressurection' but I do think it cheapens him, and the first trilogies feelings of self sacrifice and loyalty. That said I did enjoy reading him again in Vengeful Spirit. So I guess I don't mind TOO much as long as absolutely everyone doesn't start reappearing all over the place (although as a one off I'd much have preferred Argal Tal...), but I would've preferred if he hadn't been. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 I do like reading about his struggle, because it shows how even astartes, superhuman gene forged warriors, can have deeper issues. However I do want him to die on Terra, by the emperors side. If he lives i will be dissapointed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I'm kind of torn. Killing off most of the "good guys" in the first trilogy was a good idea and really brought home the image that times are changing. Also having some survivors for a sense of continuity (like the people on the Eisenstein) was well thought out. that Loken now is part of both groups is weird and as someone said earlier cheapens his sacrifice. On the other hand I like Loken and enjoy reading more about him. I would have preferred Argel Tal, if the story really needs a resurrected tragic hero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don't think bringing Loken back cheapens things - I'm not sure if he would have been my first choice for a continuing loyalist from the opening trilogy, someone perhaps more minor to act as a bearer of the legacy of Istvaan III, rather than someone so central, but I like the reminder that the Heresy ultimately began with those in a nest of vipers fighting for their lives against the most vile of betrayal, by one's closest brothers. In terms of betrayal, nothing else matches the first opening moves of the Heresy, and I like that the legacy continues in a small way. Unlike the Shattered Legions who BL won't shut up about - the way they right it it wasn't the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars central to the Heresy, it was the small bands of Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard. That, however, is probably a byproduct of stretching the series out so long - focusing on IF, BA and WS forces the plot to advance, they're too central to the overall chain of events - the shattered legions, and to a lesser extent the Ultras and Dark Angels can be focused on without having to actually advance the main plot at all. EDIT: In all honestly, some greater focus on Iacton Qruze (it's been a while, my spelling's probably off) instead of resurrecting Loken could have worked. The two ended up working together a great deal towards the end, and was a more interesting character than the continuously flat Garro. Loken's death meant something, as did Tarvtiz's, but there were plenty around them who could have carried the torch (hell, go all out and bring in Ancient Rylanor - betrayed, left for dead Emperor's Children dreadnought who was the bearer of the palatine standard and one of the oldest mostly living members of a Legion laid so low? There's a concept for you!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I liked him a lot in the opening trilogy. I haven't actually read/listened to his 'ressurection' but I do think it cheapens him, and the first trilogies feelings of self sacrifice and loyalty. That said I did enjoy reading him again in Vengeful Spirit. So I guess I don't mind TOO much as long as absolutely everyone doesn't start reappearing all over the place (although as a one off I'd much have preferred Argal Tal...), but I would've preferred if he hadn't been. He definitely was not poorly written in 'Vengeful Spirit', a book I enjoyed, but I feel like he didn't actually need to be in the story. I think because Loken was such a great character in the original three books and as the reader I truly felt his pain at his brother/legion's betrayal that I was sad when they decided to bring him back to life. Maybe that was in the cards all along but I feel like it was a reaction by BL or the authors when they saw how much the fan base cared for him. That being said, I'm sure I'll keep reading books with him in the story. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don't think bringing Loken back cheapens things - I'm not sure if he would have been my first choice for a continuing loyalist from the opening trilogy, someone perhaps more minor to act as a bearer of the legacy of Istvaan III, rather than someone so central, but I like the reminder that the Heresy ultimately began with those in a nest of vipers fighting for their lives against the most vile of betrayal, by one's closest brothers. In terms of betrayal, nothing else matches the first opening moves of the Heresy, and I like that the legacy continues in a small way. Unlike the Shattered Legions who BL won't shut up about - the way they right it it wasn't the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars central to the Heresy, it was the small bands of Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard. That, however, is probably a byproduct of stretching the series out so long - focusing on IF, BA and WS forces the plot to advance, they're too central to the overall chain of events - the shattered legions, and to a lesser extent the Ultras and Dark Angels can be focused on without having to actually advance the main plot at all. Well said brother Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 I liked him a lot in the opening trilogy. I haven't actually read/listened to his 'ressurection' but I do think it cheapens him, and the first trilogies feelings of self sacrifice and loyalty. That said I did enjoy reading him again in Vengeful Spirit. So I guess I don't mind TOO much as long as absolutely everyone doesn't start reappearing all over the place (although as a one off I'd much have preferred Argal Tal...), but I would've preferred if he hadn't been. He definitely was not poorly written in 'Vengeful Spirit', a book I enjoyed, but I feel like he didn't actually need to be in the story. I think because Loken was such a great character in the original three books and as the reader I truly felt his pain at his brother/legion's betrayal that I was sad when they decided to bring him back to life. Maybe that was in the cards all along but I feel like it was a reaction by BL or the authors when they saw how much the fan base cared for him. That being said, I'm sure I'll keep reading books with him in the story. Id like to think (and hope) that it was int he card the entire time. Im honestly think loken will be the reason why Aximand regrets all he has done, and at the very end turns loyal. I really do think Loken is kept alive to give revelations during the seige Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Loken, as a character, and the Horus Heresy, as a series, was cheapened by his figurative resurrection. That is my opinion and I'm sticking by that. But this has been mentioned already and elaborated on already, so I'll go no further. However - for extra delicious irony - a good move, imo, would have been to kill him in Legion of One. To have him survive and go crazy on the surface of Isstvan III is one thing, but then to depict those that were sent to recruit him putting him down (because he'd be genuinely, mentally lost as his alter ego 'Cerberus') after all he's been through would be perfectly grim, thus nullifying a cheap resurrection of a character that was meaningfully sacrificed in book three. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don't think bringing Loken back cheapens things - I'm not sure if he would have been my first choice for a continuing loyalist from the opening trilogy, someone perhaps more minor to act as a bearer of the legacy of Istvaan III, rather than someone so central, but I like the reminder that the Heresy ultimately began with those in a nest of vipers fighting for their lives against the most vile of betrayal, by one's closest brothers. In terms of betrayal, nothing else matches the first opening moves of the Heresy, and I like that the legacy continues in a small way. Unlike the Shattered Legions who BL won't shut up about - the way they right it it wasn't the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars central to the Heresy, it was the small bands of Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard. That, however, is probably a byproduct of stretching the series out so long - focusing on IF, BA and WS forces the plot to advance, they're too central to the overall chain of events - the shattered legions, and to a lesser extent the Ultras and Dark Angels can be focused on without having to actually advance the main plot at all. EDIT: In all honestly, some greater focus on Iacton Qruze (it's been a while, my spelling's probably off) instead of resurrecting Loken could have worked. The two ended up working together a great deal towards the end, and was a more interesting character than the continuously flat Garro. Loken's death meant something, as did Tarvtiz's, but there were plenty around them who could have carried the torch (hell, go all out and bring in Ancient Rylanor - betrayed, left for dead Emperor's Children dreadnought who was the bearer of the palatine standard and one of the oldest mostly living members of a Legion laid so low? There's a concept for you!) I think having a greater focus on Qruze would have been a really good idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I liked him a lot in the opening trilogy. I haven't actually read/listened to his 'ressurection' but I do think it cheapens him, and the first trilogies feelings of self sacrifice and loyalty. That said I did enjoy reading him again in Vengeful Spirit. So I guess I don't mind TOO much as long as absolutely everyone doesn't start reappearing all over the place (although as a one off I'd much have preferred Argal Tal...), but I would've preferred if he hadn't been. He definitely was not poorly written in 'Vengeful Spirit', a book I enjoyed, but I feel like he didn't actually need to be in the story. I think because Loken was such a great character in the original three books and as the reader I truly felt his pain at his brother/legion's betrayal that I was sad when they decided to bring him back to life. Maybe that was in the cards all along but I feel like it was a reaction by BL or the authors when they saw how much the fan base cared for him. That being said, I'm sure I'll keep reading books with him in the story. :) No he wasn't necessary. In fact most of that book wasn't necessary, although I did like it. Where does he actually show up apart from VS, is it in the Garro storyline? Edit: actually yeah letting Qruze take over from Loken would have worked. Still have the significance of Lokens death, along with having someone who could've been used to show the struggle of being betrayed by your legion etc, seems like that would've been a better solution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Meh, I dislike the whole storyline he's involved in. He should have remained dead, as a symbol of what was lost in betrayal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 I liked him a lot in the opening trilogy. I haven't actually read/listened to his 'ressurection' but I do think it cheapens him, and the first trilogies feelings of self sacrifice and loyalty. That said I did enjoy reading him again in Vengeful Spirit. So I guess I don't mind TOO much as long as absolutely everyone doesn't start reappearing all over the place (although as a one off I'd much have preferred Argal Tal...), but I would've preferred if he hadn't been. He definitely was not poorly written in 'Vengeful Spirit', a book I enjoyed, but I feel like he didn't actually need to be in the story. I think because Loken was such a great character in the original three books and as the reader I truly felt his pain at his brother/legion's betrayal that I was sad when they decided to bring him back to life. Maybe that was in the cards all along but I feel like it was a reaction by BL or the authors when they saw how much the fan base cared for him. That being said, I'm sure I'll keep reading books with him in the story. No he wasn't necessary. In fact most of that book wasn't necessary, although I did like it. Where does he actually show up apart from VS, is it in the Garro storyline? Garro legion of one, Garro grey angel, And luna Mendax i believe are the ones Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I need to catch up on the Garro stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 I need to catch up on the Garro stuff. I like them. Good quality and good story telling Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I need to catch up on the Garro stuff. If you prefer reading to listening to stories, I recommend getting The Scripts books. The format is different from purpose written novels or short stories but it's close enough, imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 I need to catch up on the Garro stuff. If you prefer reading to listening to stories, I recommend getting The Scripts books. The format is different from purpose written novels or short stories but it's close enough, imo. Ya i do prefer reading, and i honestly never thought i would like audio, but the dramas are really good and i am hooked. Censure is increndible to listen to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 However - for extra delicious irony - a good move, imo, would have been to kill him in Legion of One. To have him survive and go crazy on the surface of Isstvan III is one thing, but then to depict those that were sent to recruit him putting him down (because he'd be genuinely, mentally lost as his alter ego 'Cerberus') after all he's been through would be perfectly grim, thus nullifying a cheap resurrection of a character that was meaningfully sacrificed in book three. IMHO that would have been too grimdark. We are not there yet. Such futility fits better with 40K or the end of the Heresy. I think having a greater focus on Qruze would have been a really good idea. Seconded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I need to catch up on the Garro stuff. If you prefer reading to listening to stories, I recommend getting The Scripts books. The format is different from purpose written novels or short stories but it's close enough, imo. I don't mind either. The only audio one I've heard is Butchers Nails which was good. Are they proper audio dramas with sound effects and stuff or just audiobooks? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don't mind either. The only audio one I've heard is Butchers Nails which was good. Are they proper audio dramas with sound effects and stuff or just audiobooks? They're audio dramas. The sound effects tend to be a little sparse at times but, yeah, I think they're audio dramas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don't mind either. The only audio one I've heard is Butchers Nails which was good. Are they proper audio dramas with sound effects and stuff or just audiobooks? They're audio dramas. The sound effects tend to be a little sparse at times but, yeah, I think they're audio dramas. Haha I'm not even sure why I focused on the sound effects part, you also get a cast of different voices for the characters and stuff which seems more important than some explosions or gunfire.... Thanks though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 The audio drama with sevetar is great, he sounded exactly how I thought he would Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Game of Thrones isn't good because Ned made it to the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I agree with all the people saying his resurrection took away the meaning from his death, and I think the majority agree from what I've read on various forums. Loken was a symbol of a different era, and we all cared when he fell. While his continued existence to strike back against Horus etc is 'poetic' it seems a bit comical, they could have either used Qruze or made up other Luna Wolf characters who were not present at Isstvan with the fleet to remain as paragons of the Legions virtue if they needed, or simply continued to work Loken's lasting influence past his death through Aximand, a perfect example of why his death held significance. I like the character too but, but, I don't think he should still be around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/#findComment-4083591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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