Remus Ventanus. Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 I agree with all the people saying his resurrection took away the meaning from his death, and I think the majority agree from what I've read on various forums. Loken was a symbol of a different era, and we all cared when he fell. While his continued existence to strike back against Horus etc is 'poetic' it seems a bit comical, they could have either used Qruze or made up other Luna Wolf characters who were not present at Isstvan with the fleet to remain as paragons of the Legions virtue if they needed, or simply continued to work Loken's lasting influence past his death through Aximand, a perfect example of why his death held significance. I like the character too but, but, I don't think he should still be around. Well put. My attachment to this character is too strong i suppose. Him and Ventanus are characters that i just want more and more of, and perhaps that blinds my judgement a bit. Tho i still have hope that in the end of the series, his survival will be worth it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If there is any justice, his fate will be both grim, and dark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 If there is any justice, his fate will be both grim, and dark. dying at the hands of horus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hmm, I dont know. His death before was amazing. To be killed by a brother, with a special bond. That had meaning, and resonance. Horus kills Sanguinius, and nearly the Emperor. Loken doesnt have much of a place among that group. I dont know how to redeem his resurrection at this point. Maybe Horus does kill him, but in a negligent way, as an after thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I personally did not mind it but I do not want to see it become a habit. If it becomes a habit it removes all emotional investment in the characters because you know they will live. I wish BL would pull a really brazen move and kill off a Primarch/major character we don't expect to die. Except don't botch it up like Vulkan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I personally did not mind it but I do not want to see it become a habit. If it becomes a habit it removes all emotional investment in the characters because you know they will live. I wish BL would pull a really brazen move and kill off a Primarch/major character we don't expect to die. Except don't botch it up like Vulkan. They cant do the Primarchs, we know their fates too well. Can you imagine the uproar? "LOL you think Dorn lived? TROLOLOL" I'd probably PROBABLY die on the spot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hmm, I dont know. His death before was amazing. To be killed by a brother, with a special bond. That had meaning, and resonance. Horus kills Sanguinius, and nearly the Emperor. Loken doesnt have much of a place among that group. I dont know how to redeem his resurrection at this point. Maybe Horus does kill him, but in a negligent way, as an after thought. Maybe loken is the reason why horus turns back at the very end? Just a thought Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Loken needs to die futilely, his death utterly meaningless. He needs to see the Imperium he helped build crumble, and he needs to gasp his last in abject despair knowing that everything he ever dreamed, everything he ever accomplished was for nothing. That's the Horus Heresy. He brought is into this story, and if they are gonna keep him around, he'd sure as :cuss better end it with is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 That he's dying breaths are as Horus breaks the emperor and his final thoughts appear as "I was there the day Horus slew the emperor" Never seeing the emperor blast Horus with his mind bullets Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hmm, I dont know. His death before was amazing. To be killed by a brother, with a special bond. That had meaning, and resonance. Horus kills Sanguinius, and nearly the Emperor. Loken doesnt have much of a place among that group. I dont know how to redeem his resurrection at this point. Maybe Horus does kill him, but in a negligent way, as an after thought. Maybe loken is the reason why horus turns back at the very end? Just a thought Horus cracks after the Emperor unloads on him, due to the sacrifice of Ollanius Pius. Loken has no place in the canon of the story that we already know. This is what I recall (taken from Lex) The Emperor and Horus fought with a power that would have eviscerated any mortal man dozens of times over with each blow. The Emperor held back for much of the battle, remembering Horus as his beloved son and not wishing to believe that he had turned so utterly to Chaos. This allowed Horus to inflict crippling mortal wounds on the Emperor, since nothing short of the Emperor's full power would be sufficient to defeat him. At the critical point in the battle, a lone Adeptus Custode guard entered the room (while others state the lone warrior to be Ollanius Pius, an Imperial Army soldier). Horus flayed him alive with but a look and in that instant the Emperor realised how far his favoured son had fallen. The sacrifice of the Custodian bought the Emperor time to deliver a finishing blow to Horus. With iron resolve, he gathered his full strength and delivered a massive psychic blow that killed Horus almost instantly and obliterated his very soul. In his final moments, the powers of Chaos were driven from him and the Emperor sensed his favoured son's return to sanity for a fraction of a second before he finally died Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 That's a fair point, but keep in mind there have always been questions over what exactly happens on the Vengeful Spirit (why were the shields dropped, etc) and there have been numerous changes to the lore as the Heresy has progressed (as your quote said, Ollanius Pius/Custode/Imperial Fist...Pius is now back in the novel series, but he could be a red herring - who knows). Loken didn't even exist as a character until the novel series was started (from memory his name does not appear in RT with Garro etc) so it's perfectly plausible that he will hold a major role in what happens at the end of the heresy, especially if Black Library decides his inclusion is going to make the story appear more widely/sell more books. I view the older lore on 30k as a 'guideline' rather than a strict rule at this point and the fact that they have brought him back and not only thrown him in the Garro stuff (which I view as a bit of a side attraction, frankly) but put him back into the main story in Vengeful Spirit indicates he will have a significant role to play. I like Rohr and Kurama's ideas! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Loken didn't even exist as a character until the novel series was started (from memory his name does not appear in RT with Garro etc) I think that's right. He's not mentioned at all in the "Visions of Heresy" book with all the card game art. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Totally fair comment, things could change, but I hope not in this case. If it's not broke and all that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Loken and Torgaddon should have stayed dead on Isstvan III, not being miraculously recovered and turned into a daemon, respectively. It would have given their last mission much more poignance - the final, futile, defiant act against overwhelming odds. They were the heros of old and they should have died heroic deaths and stayed dead. I don't mind Khârn's equally miraculous near-death experience on Isstvan III. He's long been described as having some dark destiny to fulfill - hell, the World Eaters dragged his carcass, alone out of thousands of others, from the surface of Terra into the Eye of Terror. The Black Library writers need to stop doing this whole resurrection thing. Death is final. Coming back from it cheapens one of the most powerful tools in writing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Loken and Torgaddon should have stayed dead on Isstvan III, not being miraculously recovered and turned into a daemon, respectively. Wut. I knew about Loken (and the nature of his 'death' in Galaxy in Flames made me entirely unsurprised when I heard he came back), but Torgaddon? What, when and how did this happen? Which author is responsible? At first mention, this sounds like Clan Raukaan level bull. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 That isn't exactly the case. The daemon that feasted on Torgaddon's soul reached sentience at that moment and as a result, much of its psyche and personality is based on Torgaddon and it even has his memories and refers to itself as Torgaddon from time to time. But ultimately Tormageddon is an unique and separate entity from Torgaddon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I always thought the death of Loken and Torgaddon were the reason that 'Little' Horus was so torn. His duty to his legion and the warmaster vs what happened to his friends. But no they are both alive I don't think thats really there for him. I wish Loken would have stayed dead personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 It was. And now Aximand at least knows the fate of Loken. Torgaddon is still dead, and Aximand doesn't quite know of Tormageddon's existence yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4083999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 There is that I suppose. I was sort thinking Aximand may have a change of heart as he sees the corruption of the Legikns andbe the one who drops the shields. Would also be cool if he is the one who, seeing Horus about to kill the Emperor, steps on only to be obilerated by Horus who then has his realisation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4084015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 There is that I suppose. I was sort thinking Aximand may have a change of heart as he sees the corruption of the Legikns andbe the one who drops the shields. Would also be cool if he is the one who, seeing Horus about to kill the Emperor, steps on only to be obilerated by Horus who then has his realisation. Ahem. Ollanius Pius has that duty. That remains one of my, if not my absolute favourite part of the Heresy. For all the demi-gods, post-human super-soldiers, psychic giants and unknowable entities, it the sacrifice of a common human being, a single individual, unremarkable save for courage and dedication to the Imperium and human civilization who makes a choice knowing full well he can not possible survive between two gods made flesh. It is that act, and Horus's casual destruction of him that makes clear to the Emperor what needs to be done. It is the deeds of common people which shape history, and even the most futile acts in furtherance of what one believes can change history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4084027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Oh I know he did in that in stuff and his inclusion in the novels would lead me to believe be may do that again. But he is hardly an average soldier, but a perpetual and a very old one at that, and knows more about the warp then most. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4084034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Oh I know he did in that in stuff and his inclusion in the novels would lead me to believe be may do that again. But he is hardly an average soldier, but a perpetual and a very old one at that, and knows more about the warp then most. No, no he doesn't. There happens to be a "perpetual" with a vaguely similarly sounding name, but whether or not he will fill that role is as of yet undetermined. I will be very dissapointed if he turns out to be Ollanius Pius, as much like with this Loken conundrum, it would massively cheapen the act. If anything, it would cheapen the whole heresy. That merely mortal conclusion is one of the best ideas in it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4084039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Well I was the impression they were the same. I will happily be wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4084040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Ollanius Pius is Ollanius Pius. Period. All that matters to the background is that he dies there, makes Horus reevaluate his life choices and becomes regarded as a saint in the future. And since we know Perpetuals can indeed lose their immortality(John Grammaticus, Vulkan, the Emperor), they can indeed die. As for Aximand fulfilling that role, the problem is that we already had a short story where he questioned himself because he thought he was being haunted by Loken's ghost and after his face gets cut off, he reaffirms his loyalty to the Traitor cause. This is further driven home in Vengeful Spirit when he learns Loken is actually alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4084075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Aximand is such a brilliant character. I hope he gets more coverage in the novel series & hopefully rules + a model from FW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/2/#findComment-4084092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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