Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Even if Ol is stripped of his immortality its still not quite the storry of a normal soldier sacrificing himself. On Aximand, that's why I don't like Lokens resurrection. I fell they missed s chance to create a really interesting character with Aximand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Ollanius Pius is Ollanius Pius. Period. All that matters to the background is that he dies there, makes Horus reevaluate his life choices and becomes regarded as a saint in the future. AFAIK it has not been confirmed that Oll Persson is Ollanius Pius. Personally I prefer the guy to take a stand against Horus to be a bog standard human instead of a perpetual. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Ressurection has as much of a place in Grim Dark as glowing skin in vampire settings. It's just a way to reach out to a larger audience by diluting the genre. It definitely cheapens to whole experience. His death was the turning point of the heresy that took 3 books to build up. IT meant the point of no return for horus, and the death of the great imperium of man as it was under the aegis of the great crusade. By brining him back, you just turn that into a big pile of meh. But here's what tickles my pickle the most about Vengeful Spirit. Massive Rant incoming. The whole bit about sending him on a suicide missing of critical importance, with 2 Primarchs and probably the most powerful human psyker in the universe not noticing his rather obvious "PTSD" syndromes was rather ludicrous. The point of the mission was also really silly when you think about it. With the memory capabilities of the average primarch (we are not talking about Angron here) Russ would remember every single detail of the Vengeful spirit's configuration just from him at the very least having been on it once, or just looking at the schematics. Qruze was on that ship for even longer than Loken. They certainly did not need is dodgey battle readiness in the mix. Then the marines behaving with him the way they did during the mission was equally dreadful. Cliche douchebag marine tetting him to get is excrements together, followed by equally cliche old chap pal broski to the defend with the whole "This man saved me back in nam, and he is the best of us. He deserves his 3rd or 4th chance to do this. Even though 3 of us just died because of him and is repeated inability to act. And to top that off, Most of them survived a brawl with horus annd is possy, get sucked into a space vaccum and "cool story bro, I caught you all just before you all died. Even the naked ultramarine, no problem because secret tech and mysterious spaceships" The whole bit with Horus wanting the prodigal son back was also really weak. If anything with the state of mind he seems to have in regards to betrayal and disobedience, he would have wanted to slowly choke the life out of loken to make sure nothing remained of the Luna Wolves or to remind him of the time he was supplicant to the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barabbas Sogalon Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Loken should have stayed dead. If they want to focus on a Istvaan III survivor then give me more of Crysos Morturg. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Even if Ol is stripped of his immortality its still not quite the storry of a normal soldier sacrificing himself. On Aximand, that's why I don't like Lokens resurrection. I fell they missed s chance to create a really interesting character with Aximand. Except here's the thing. The only people who know Ol is a Perpetual are John Grammaticus and maybe, the Emperor. And I think two other perpetuals, the chick from Vengeful Spirit and the assassin from Unremembered Empire. The whole point of hesitation is that Horus thinks he killed a normal person and for whatever reason that causes him to backstep. Personally, the reason I'm kind of eh on that point is because I fail to see the motivation or realism in Horus killing "another nobody" and it having this super emotional and psychological impact on him that burning planets full of women, children and other soldiers didn't. To me, it would make more sense if it turns out that Ol gives up his immortality to bring back Horus from the brink and then permanently dies in the aftermath. It would be something that legitimately gives Horus reason to pause. As for "being unconfirmed", a man referred to as "Pious Oll" is shown a version of being at the battle between the Emperor and Horus. If that isn't foreshadowing then I don't know what is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 My thoughts on Loken's fate? You had one job, Abaddon! ONE JOB! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 @Kol Saresk:It's been quite a time since I read about Ollam Pius but as far a I know it wasn't the fact that horus killed another nobody, but that this nobody despite knowing knowing he would die, knowing that he would not do anything to Horus and knowing that his death would not change anything still stood up to Horus. If however that person had reason to believe that he would not die, the whole scene would not make sense. It reminds me of the various instances accorss the books (HH and 40K) where space marines are amazed that the bog standard humans actually show up and perform in the horrors of war despite not being engineered to know no fear. @Wade Garrett: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If however that person had reason to believe that he would not die, the whole scene would not make sense. Afaik, Pius has lost (or will lose) his Perpetual status. By the time he faces Horus he's a mere mortal like the rest of us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I still remember heads turning when Vulkan turned out to be a perpetual. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I still remember heads turning when Vulkan turned out to be a perpetual. Vulkan Lives, yeah.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Kol I get what your your coming from re Ol but I just always had the impression the soldiers death (and it wasnt just death but pure destriction of the sole fpr no reason) made the Emperor realise there was no hope for Horus so he then mind blasted him, rather then Horus waking up and allowing himself to die. Would the Emperor care if he say another pertual die. Maube, like you said, seeing an perpetual sacrifice his immortality would cause the Emperor to act. Just think it held more meaning for the Emperor to see a normal person die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 The issue is Horus didn't just kill him; he flat out obliterated him. Flayed him alive, erased his existence and so on. And it was all with a glance. It was far less 'oh no, this dude has sacrificed himself' and more 'oh holy hell, the callousness with which he acts is unforgivable. There is no hope for him.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 The issue is Horus didn't just kill him; he flat out obliterated him. Flayed him alive, erased his existence and so on. And it was all with a glance. It was far less 'oh no, this dude has sacrificed himself' and more 'oh holy hell, the callousness with which he acts is unforgivable. There is no hope for him.' Yeah, which was the point the Emperor realised there was no hope for Horus and he had to kill him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I think it's important to remember that the events of the heresy as we know them in cannon are reported in the eyes of the Imperium. Not the actually events from an objective source ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Ressurection has as much of a place in Grim Dark as glowing skin in vampire settings. It's just a way to reach out to a larger audience by diluting the genre. It definitely cheapens to whole experience. His death was the turning point of the heresy that took 3 books to build up. IT meant the point of no return for horus, and the death of the great imperium of man as it was under the aegis of the great crusade. By brining him back, you just turn that into a big pile of meh. But here's what tickles my pickle the most about Vengeful Spirit. Massive Rant incoming. The whole bit about sending him on a suicide missing of critical importance, with 2 Primarchs and probably the most powerful human psyker in the universe not noticing his rather obvious "PTSD" syndromes was rather ludicrous. The point of the mission was also really silly when you think about it. With the memory capabilities of the average primarch (we are not talking about Angron here) Russ would remember every single detail of the Vengeful spirit's configuration just from him at the very least having been on it once, or just looking at the schematics. Qruze was on that ship for even longer than Loken. They certainly did not need is dodgey battle readiness in the mix. Then the marines behaving with him the way they did during the mission was equally dreadful. Cliche douchebag marine tetting him to get is excrements together, followed by equally cliche old chap pal broski to the defend with the whole "This man saved me back in nam, and he is the best of us. He deserves his 3rd or 4th chance to do this. Even though 3 of us just died because of him and is repeated inability to act. And to top that off, Most of them survived a brawl with horus annd is possy, get sucked into a space vaccum and "cool story bro, I caught you all just before you all died. Even the naked ultramarine, no problem because secret tech and mysterious spaceships" The whole bit with Horus wanting the prodigal son back was also really weak. If anything with the state of mind he seems to have in regards to betrayal and disobedience, he would have wanted to slowly choke the life out of loken to make sure nothing remained of the Luna Wolves or to remind him of the time he was supplicant to the Emperor. Totally agree with all of that. Apart from the Loken story line in the book I actually enjoyed most of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Actually in 40K, ships are constantly evolving creatures, especially the primarchs' command ships as they are a base design that is then taken down and restructured according to each individual's tastes. So for example, the Vengeful Spirit, Invincible Reason and Nightfall are all Gloriana class vessels, but each one has been changed in some manner over the course of its existence. So studying the schematics? Worthless. Remembering the passages you took? That would be great, if you were planning on marching through the front door. Relying on the Astartes to tell you about the inner bowels of the ship that they had never been in, never had any reason to worry about? Pretty self-explanatory. While the storyline was completely extraneous from the main story other than letting everyone know Loken lived and getting Qruze killed, it wasn't pointless in terms of military strategy. If Russ truly wanted to be able secretly board an enemy vessel in a battle, his information of its layout would have to be as recent and firsthand as possible due to the overall nature of warships in 40K/30K. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Ollanius Pius is Ollanius Pius. Period. All that matters to the background is that he dies there, makes Horus reevaluate his life choices and becomes regarded as a saint in the future. AFAIK it has not been confirmed that Oll Persson is Ollanius Pius. Personally I prefer the guy to take a stand against Horus to be a bog standard human instead of a perpetual. It has been pretty much confirmed that oll perrson is Ollanius pius. It is stated several times that people call him pius and i think it even said in know no fear that oll is short for ollanius. Even if Ol is stripped of his immortality its still not quite the storry of a normal soldier sacrificing himself. On Aximand, that's why I don't like Lokens resurrection. I fell they missed s chance to create a really interesting character with Aximand. Except here's the thing. The only people who know Ol is a Perpetual are John Grammaticus and maybe, the Emperor. And I think two other perpetuals, the chick from Vengeful Spirit and the assassin from Unremembered Empire. The whole point of hesitation is that Horus thinks he killed a normal person and for whatever reason that causes him to backstep. Personally, the reason I'm kind of eh on that point is because I fail to see the motivation or realism in Horus killing "another nobody" and it having this super emotional and psychological impact on him that burning planets full of women, children and other soldiers didn't. To me, it would make more sense if it turns out that Ol gives up his immortality to bring back Horus from the brink and then permanently dies in the aftermath. It would be something that legitimately gives Horus reason to pause. As for "being unconfirmed", a man referred to as "Pious Oll" is shown a version of being at the battle between the Emperor and Horus. If that isn't foreshadowing then I don't know what is. The reason the emperor cared abouts Olls death, is because the Emperor has known oll for thousands upon thousands of years. They were friends in the times of old earth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Has it ever been mention that the Emperor knew Olls? All I remember is he fought in several recent (to our time) wars and was on the Argo. Now they must have met, family small planet and all but doesn't mean they were close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Has it ever been mention that the Emperor knew Olls? All I remember is he fought in several recent (to our time) wars and was on the Argo. Now they must have met, family small planet and all but doesn't mean they were close. Ya in the short sotry unmarked, in the mark of calth anthology, oll has a flashback to a convo he had with the Emperor on ancient earth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hmmm can't remember that, will have to give a re read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hmmm can't remember that, will have to give a re read. I could give you a quote in an hour or so if you wanted Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Yeah sure. I did like that short. That's where he mentions the Argo. As a classical historian I envy him. Which is fairly depressing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 And in Know No Fear, all Grammaticus has to say is "You're a true Perpetual, like 'him'." And Oll knows exactly who is being referenced. So at the very least they knew of each other, if they didn't know each other personally. Like I said, the personal connection makes more sense than "just another nobody." You want to see Horus' ruthlessness? Istvaan III all the way to Terra. If that can't convince you, if seeing one of your sons died by another's hand can't convince you, a nobody ain't going to do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 So here is the quote i promised for Unmarked.SPOILER!!! "The likes of us', He says to Oll, 'the liked of us will leave or print on the things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked. 'Mine will,'Oll assures him. "I have no stomach for the games you want to play witht he world. I just want an ordinary life.' 'My dear friend, you'll have as many of those as you want'. So it even looks like Oll knew of the emperors plan of conquest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Ok yeah, but I get the feeling the likes of Olls shied away from the Emperor. I think they knew he(the big E) was more then another perpetual. John certinally saw something in the Emperor he didn't want to be associated with. Olls tried to move as far away from Terra as he could. Although after all those 'lives' I guess he may have been sick of even what seemed like the golden age of Mankind. There is a fare amount of forbidding in that short about Ills fate, I believe it's mentioned how he feels it's his last journey. John has set him on a task, seemingly without the Cables knowledge, that will prove pivotal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309176-the-garviel-loken-conundrum/page/3/#findComment-4084923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.