The Garviel Loken Conundrum

[Remus Ventanus.]

Ok yeah, but I get the feeling the likes of Olls shied away from the Emperor. I think they knew he(the big E) was more then another perpetual. John certinally saw something in the Emperor he didn't want to be associated with. Olls tried to move as far away from Terra as he could. Although after all those 'lives' I guess he may have been sick of even what seemed like the golden age of Mankind. There is a fare amount of forbidding in that short about Ills fate, I believe it's mentioned how he feels it's his last journey. John has set him on a task, seemingly without the Cables knowledge, that will prove pivotal.

Yes and that task is to show up on the vengeful spirit imo. The emperor regards Oll as a friend, and having known him for so long, perhaps being his first real friend, that would have  a major impact on the emperor, when Horus kills oll.

[Olis]

The emperor regards Oll as a friend, and having known him for so long, perhaps being his first real friend, that would have  a major impact on the emperor, when Horus kills oll.

 

I wouldn't put it past the Emperor to use the word 'friend' and not actually mean it. I am not convinced he regards Oll as one - I suspect the word 'friend' was utilised to get Oll on side at the time it was said. I doubt any such relationship exists between the two.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

The emperor regards Oll as a friend, and having known him for so long, perhaps being his first real friend, that would have  a major impact on the emperor, when Horus kills oll.

 

I wouldn't put it past the Emperor to use the word 'friend' and not actually mean it. I am not convinced he regards Oll as one - I suspect the word 'friend' was utilised to get Oll on side at the time it was said. I doubt any such relationship exists between the two.

 

It is very open to interpretation, that is for sure. I think that since both and Oll were created the same way, and i believe together, that perhaps the Emperor truly does value Oll. In the new Visions of Heresy book, it says how Ollanius steps in front of horus, and says how the emperor knew this man for a long time and how he was deeply saddened when he died to horus.

[Kol Saresk]

From looking at how He interacts with both Oll and Grammaticus, he clearly values unique individuals. Maybe not as people, but he values them nonetheless. Because even before Grammaticus became a Perpetual, he was still a psyker with enough power to make the Emperor turn his head and think making him an astropath would be a disservice.

 

Even disregarding that, it could be that the Emperor has known enough of Oll that he has developed the kind of respect seen between say, Xavier and Magneto. While they refer to themselves as friends, they are constantly fighting each other and there is even one point in the comics where Xavier says enough is enough and shuts down Magneto's mind. And yet every time one of them dies, the other is always heavily motivated by the others deaths. There could be something of that relationship between Oll and the Emperor.

 

Of course as I type this, something occurs to me. One of the things that Grammaticus uses to persuade Oll is his status as a true Perpetual and that it somehow entails a duty not just to the Emperor, but Humankind as well. So it is possible that the Perpetuals are meant to be some sort of guide or guardian to Humankind, that the Emperor isn't unique in his manifest destiny as a messiah. Could simply be that there aren't that many left and that maybe the Emperor was hoping that even if he died, there would at least be another of his ilk to take his place and that when Oll is completely destroyed, he realizes leaving this for someone else to deal with simply isn't an option anymore.

[Ranwulf]

Kol Saresk...thanks for all the Oll arguments. Because it has been one of my biggest pet peeves since I heard about it.

 

Now, about Loken 'ressurection'. I'm torned about it. In one way, it's good seeing him again. In another, it means that his 'death' lost it's bite. I will reserve judgement for the end of the series, because in 'Galaxy in Flames' Garviel said how much he wished his last battle would be on Terra, something epic, rather than fighting in a pit husk of a ball that is Isstvan.

 

To me it's all about what role the writers want to give to Loken. Is he a simbol of the Great Crusade? The representation of a once proud legion? Maybe he is suppose to display more than just the GC, but the Imperium (or even the Galaxy) at large. Look at his development, from Loken to Cerberus, akin to the Age of the Imperium to the blood soaked and ever in conflict duality ('good' Imperium vs 'evil' Imperium) of the Horus Heresy, and maybe with the Siege of Terra, Loken may either die so that we know truly that the Age where the 'good' part of the Imperium has finally died, or he develops even further, becoming a relentless hunter in the Scouring. 

 

Ran

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Hello all,

 

First if this is not in the right section, would a mod please re direct this. Thanks

 

Anyways, what does everyone think of the current state of Loken? I am personally glad he is alive....I know some people dont like the fact he survived, and if it had been any other character i too may have been reserved about the whole thing, but since it is Loken, i am glad to see him back. 

 

The other question is what do we think his fate will be? I think he will Kill aximand, and then be killed by Horus during the siege on the Vengeful spirit.

 

 

I was arguing that Loken was alive many years before his survival was confirmed.  I was happy to come out on the right side of that engagement.  I think there are a few clues in the story's already written about Loken's fate, if you are open to them.   Many are not however as they want him dead and don't think his fate is  anything other then a cash grab by BL.  

 

I think Loken is alive in the current time of 40k.  I think it will turn out that Loken was cursed with a extra long life, even for a Astartes, when Lil Horus cut off Tarik's head on Isstvan III.  First he lives through the end of the Heresy, becoming one of the first GM of the Grey Knights.  One day he will get even with Abbadon, perhaps a double fatality.  I think Loken has endured these past 10,000 years the hard way.  With out the relief of a short cut like the warp, or stasiss sleep.  There are a few good pieces of foreshadowing that i believe point to this.

 

1 )  When Garvil joins the Mournival, I think he has a prophetic vision.  In this vision, while attempting to focus in on his own death in the future, I think he see himself left for dead on Issvan III.  While this is happening he talks about a time 5 or 10k years in the future.  This seems to me to hint that Loken will survive to see this time himself.  I think he was viewing the future just asking the wrong questions. 

 

This same scene also has another bread crumb drop.  Through out the scene Loken has the hebegeebeez.  He has a bad feeling as he approached the gathering in the shallow water and again before they began the ritual proper. So much so that he interrupted them to make sure they knew his feeling on this sort of thing.   Maybe that's when things got messed up... never good to go of scrip during a ritual.  Even though they reassure him there is nothing untoward going on just pantomime, they still proceed to swear binding oaths to each other, in the light of a reflected moon, a tradition dating back to the earliest days of the legion.  There are some interesting, relevant lines in their oath of Mournival. 

 

for the full quote

 

 

The names are said,' Abaddon intoned, 'and of them, we hail Sejanus, latest to fall.'

'Hail, Sejanus!' Torgaddon and Aximand cried.

'Garviel Loken.’ Abaddon said, looking at Loken. 'We ask you to take Sejanus's place. How say you?'

'I will do this thing gladly.’

'Will you swear an oath to uphold the confratern of the Mournival?'

'I will.’ said Loken.

'Will you accept our brothership and give it back as a brother?'

'I will.’

'Will you be true to the Mournival to the end of your life?'

'I will.’

'Will you serve the Luna Wolves for as long as they bear that proud name?'

'I will.’ said Loken.

'Do you pledge to the commander, who is primarch over us all?' asked Aximand.

'I so pledge.’

'And to the Emperor above all primarchs, everlasting?'

'I so pledge.’

'Do you swear to uphold the truth of the Imperium of Mankind, no matter what evil may assail it?' Torgaddon asked.

'I swear.’ said Loken.

'Do you swear to stand firm against all enemies, alien and domestic?'

This I swear.'

'And in war, kill for the living and kill for the dead?'

'Kill for the living! Kill for the dead!' Abaddon and Aximand echoed.

1 swear.'

'As the moon lights us.’ Abaddon said, 'will you be a true brother to your brother Astartes?'

'I will.'

'No matter the cost?'

'No matter the cost.'

'Your oath is taken, Garviel. Welcome into the Mour-nival. Tarik? Illuminate us.'

Torgaddon pulled a vapour flare from his belt and fired it off into the night sky. It burst in a bright umbrella of light, white and harsh.

As the sparks of it rained slowly down onto the waters, the four warriors hugged and whooped, clasping hands and slapping backs. Torgaddon, Aximand and Abaddon took turns to embrace Loken.

"You're one of us now,' Torgaddon whispered as he drew Loken close. 'I am.’ said Loken.

 

 

 

I think as a result of taking this oath and then turning on each other in the way it happened in Galaxy in Flames Loken, Aximond, and Abbadon were cursed.  Each in their own way.  They formed a bond that would only be broken in Death and then broke their words killing one of their own. 

 

 

2 ) In False Gods Loken has a conversation with Mersadie Oliton, about the relative long life spans of the Astartes.  After rereading this book a few times searching for hints of Loken's possible survival past GiF, i zeroed in on this passage.  

 

 

You're staring,' said Loken, without turning.

Momentarily flustered, she said, 'Sorry, I didn't mean-'

He laughed. I'm teasing. I don't mind. If I am to be remembered, I'd like it to be when I was at my peak rather than as a toothless old man drooling into my gruel.'

'I didn't realise Astartes aged,’ she replied, regaining her composure.

Loken shrugged, picking up a carved vambrace and a polishing cloth. 'I don't know if we do either. None of us has ever lived long enough to find out,’

Her sense for things unsaid told her that she could use this angle in a chapter of her remembrances, if he would talk more on the subject. The melancholy of the immortal, or the paradox of an ageless being caught in the flux of constantly changing times - struggling flies in the clotting amber of history.

She realised she was getting ahead of herself and asked, 'Does that bother you, not getting old? Is there some part of you that wants to?'

'Why would I want to get old?' asked Loken, opening his tin of lapping powder and applying it to the vam-brace, its new colour, a pale, greenish hued metallic still unfamiliar to her. 'Do you?'

'No,’ she admitted, unconsciously reaching up to touch the smooth black skin of her hairless augmetic scalp. 'No, I don't. To be honest, it scares me. Does it scare you?'

'No. I've told you, I'm not built to feel like that. I am powerful now, strong. Why would I want to change that?'

'I don't know. I thought that if you aged maybe you'd be able to, you know, retire one day. Once the Crusade is over I mean.'

'Over?'

'Yes, once the fighting is done and the Emperor's realm is restored.'

Loken didn't answer immediately, instead continuing to polish his armour. She was about to ask the question again when he said, 'I don't know that it ever will be over, Mer-sadie. Since I joined the Mournival, I've spoken to a number of people who seem to think we'll never finish the Great Unification. Or if we do, that it won't last.'

 

 

I have come to feel that Loken will be the one to answer his own question.

 

 

'I didn't realise Astartes aged,’ she replied, regaining her composure.

Loken shrugged, picking up a carved vambrace and a polishing cloth. 'I don't know if we do either. None of us has ever lived long enough to find out,’

Her sense for things unsaid told her that she could use this angle in a chapter of her remembrances, if he would talk more on the subject. The melancholy of the immortal, or the paradox of an ageless being caught in the flux of constantly changing times - struggling flies in the clotting amber of history.

 

 

This I feel this is what Loken's curse will turn out to be.  "struggling flies in the clotting amber of history".   I don't see why this scene would be important enough to make it past an editor if it did not have deeper meaning.

 

3 ) In Legion of one we find out Loken is indeed alive, though he has gone of the deep end.  He is stark raving mad and has a lot to say.

 

Cerberus says 'The peace of the grave will only be mine, when the scales are balanced.' and  refers to himself as 'The undying amongst the dead.'

 

This can be rationalized as the rambling of a mad man and given no further thought but I see more.  To me the author is hinting that Loken will not die until he gets even with the universe.  As long as Abbadon is alive, i cant see Loken getting the balance he needs.

 

I know i am in the vast minority in my views on this topic and that fine.

[Augustus]

Why couldn't Russ have eaten some of their brain from a biopsy?  Or used one of his "not Librarians"?

 

Interesting theory on the cursed bit. I like that.

[Ishagu]

I think Loken is alive and well in the 41st millennium.

He searches for Lucius as he is the one man who can end the eternal curse.

 

Also, his fued with Abaddon needs to be resolved.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Hello all,

 

First if this is not in the right section, would a mod please re direct this. Thanks

 

Anyways, what does everyone think of the current state of Loken? I am personally glad he is alive....I know some people dont like the fact he survived, and if it had been any other character i too may have been reserved about the whole thing, but since it is Loken, i am glad to see him back.

 

The other question is what do we think his fate will be? I think he will Kill aximand, and then be killed by Horus during the siege on the Vengeful spirit.

 

I was arguing that Loken was alive many years before his survival was confirmed. I was happy to come out on the right side of that engagement. I think there are a few clues in the story's already written about Loken's fate, if you are open to them. Many are not however as they want him dead and don't think his fate is anything other then a cash grab by BL.

 

I think Loken is alive in the current time of 40k. I think it will turn out that Loken was cursed with a extra long life, even for a Astartes, when Lil Horus cut off Tarik's head on Isstvan III. First he lives through the end of the Heresy, becoming one of the first GM of the Grey Knights. One day he will get even with Abbadon, perhaps a double fatality. I think Loken has endured these past 10,000 years the hard way. With out the relief of a short cut like the warp, or stasiss sleep. There are a few good pieces of foreshadowing that i believe point to this.

 

1 ) When Garvil joins the Mournival, I think he has a prophetic vision. In this vision, while attempting to focus in on his own death in the future, I think he see himself left for dead on Issvan III. While this is happening he talks about a time 5 or 10k years in the future. This seems to me to hint that Loken will survive to see this time himself. I think he was viewing the future just asking the wrong questions.

 

This same scene also has another bread crumb drop. Through out the scene Loken has the hebegeebeez. He has a bad feeling as he approached the gathering in the shallow water and again before they began the ritual proper. So much so that he interrupted them to make sure they knew his feeling on this sort of thing. Maybe that's when things got messed up... never good to go of scrip during a ritual. Even though they reassure him there is nothing untoward going on just pantomime, they still proceed to swear binding oaths to each other, in the light of a reflected moon, a tradition dating back to the earliest days of the legion. There are some interesting, relevant lines in their oath of Mournival.

 

for the full quote

 

 

The names are said,' Abaddon intoned, 'and of them, we hail Sejanus, latest to fall.'

'Hail, Sejanus!' Torgaddon and Aximand cried.

'Garviel Loken.’ Abaddon said, looking at Loken. 'We ask you to take Sejanus's place. How say you?'

'I will do this thing gladly.’

'Will you swear an oath to uphold the confratern of the Mournival?'

'I will.’ said Loken.

'Will you accept our brothership and give it back as a brother?'

'I will.’

'Will you be true to the Mournival to the end of your life?'

'I will.’

'Will you serve the Luna Wolves for as long as they bear that proud name?'

'I will.’ said Loken.

'Do you pledge to the commander, who is primarch over us all?' asked Aximand.

'I so pledge.’

'And to the Emperor above all primarchs, everlasting?'

'I so pledge.’

'Do you swear to uphold the truth of the Imperium of Mankind, no matter what evil may assail it?' Torgaddon asked.

'I swear.’ said Loken.

'Do you swear to stand firm against all enemies, alien and domestic?'

This I swear.'

'And in war, kill for the living and kill for the dead?'

'Kill for the living! Kill for the dead!' Abaddon and Aximand echoed.

1 swear.'

'As the moon lights us.’ Abaddon said, 'will you be a true brother to your brother Astartes?'

'I will.'

'No matter the cost?'

'No matter the cost.'

'Your oath is taken, Garviel. Welcome into the Mour-nival. Tarik? Illuminate us.'

Torgaddon pulled a vapour flare from his belt and fired it off into the night sky. It burst in a bright umbrella of light, white and harsh.

As the sparks of it rained slowly down onto the waters, the four warriors hugged and whooped, clasping hands and slapping backs. Torgaddon, Aximand and Abaddon took turns to embrace Loken.

"You're one of us now,' Torgaddon whispered as he drew Loken close. 'I am.’ said Loken.

 

 

 

I think as a result of taking this oath and then turning on each other in the way it happened in Galaxy in Flames Loken, Aximond, and Abbadon were cursed. Each in their own way. They formed a bond that would only be broken in Death and then broke their words killing one of their own.

 

 

2 ) In False Gods Loken has a conversation with Mersadie Oliton, about the relative long life spans of the Astartes. After rereading this book a few times searching for hints of Loken's possible survival past GiF, i zeroed in on this passage.

 

You're staring,' said Loken, without turning.

Momentarily flustered, she said, 'Sorry, I didn't mean-'

He laughed. I'm teasing. I don't mind. If I am to be remembered, I'd like it to be when I was at my peak rather than as a toothless old man drooling into my gruel.'

'I didn't realise Astartes aged,’ she replied, regaining her composure.

Loken shrugged, picking up a carved vambrace and a polishing cloth. 'I don't know if we do either. None of us has ever lived long enough to find out,’

Her sense for things unsaid told her that she could use this angle in a chapter of her remembrances, if he would talk more on the subject. The melancholy of the immortal, or the paradox of an ageless being caught in the flux of constantly changing times - struggling flies in the clotting amber of history.

She realised she was getting ahead of herself and asked, 'Does that bother you, not getting old? Is there some part of you that wants to?'

'Why would I want to get old?' asked Loken, opening his tin of lapping powder and applying it to the vam-brace, its new colour, a pale, greenish hued metallic still unfamiliar to her. 'Do you?'

'No,’ she admitted, unconsciously reaching up to touch the smooth black skin of her hairless augmetic scalp. 'No, I don't. To be honest, it scares me. Does it scare you?'

'No. I've told you, I'm not built to feel like that. I am powerful now, strong. Why would I want to change that?'

'I don't know. I thought that if you aged maybe you'd be able to, you know, retire one day. Once the Crusade is over I mean.'

'Over?'

'Yes, once the fighting is done and the Emperor's realm is restored.'

Loken didn't answer immediately, instead continuing to polish his armour. She was about to ask the question again when he said, 'I don't know that it ever will be over, Mer-sadie. Since I joined the Mournival, I've spoken to a number of people who seem to think we'll never finish the Great Unification. Or if we do, that it won't last.'

I have come to feel that Loken will be the one to answer his own question.

'I didn't realise Astartes aged,’ she replied, regaining her composure.

Loken shrugged, picking up a carved vambrace and a polishing cloth. 'I don't know if we do either. None of us has ever lived long enough to find out,’

Her sense for things unsaid told her that she could use this angle in a chapter of her remembrances, if he would talk more on the subject. The melancholy of the immortal, or the paradox of an ageless being caught in the flux of constantly changing times - struggling flies in the clotting amber of history.

This I feel this is what Loken's curse will turn out to be. "struggling flies in the clotting amber of history". I don't see why this scene would be important enough to make it past an editor if it did not have deeper meaning.

3 ) In Legion of one we find out Loken is indeed alive, though he has gone of the deep end. He is stark raving mad and has a lot to say.

 

Cerberus says 'The peace of the grave will only be mine, when the scales are balanced.' and refers to himself as 'The undying amongst the dead.'

 

This can be rationalized as the rambling of a mad man and given no further thought but I see more. To me the author is hinting that Loken will not die until he gets even with the universe. As long as Abbadon is alive, i cant see Loken getting the balance he needs.

I know i am in the vast minority in my views on this topic and that fine.

Isstvan III was an inside job! Abaddon is a lizard man in a skin suit! Chemtrails are causing Heresy! Space Marines are made with GMOs! Vaccines have daemon blood in them!

[Wade Garrett]

The Life Eater virus can't melt steel!

[Demus Ragnok]

The Crusade is a myth perpetrated by those in power to further their own agendas.

 

I believe Loken and the other Knights Errant are involved in the selection and training of the first Grey Knights. After that...I anyone's guess.

[Xin Ceithan]

Personally, I found that final battle between the Mournival a brilliant piece. it's the heresy to come in a nutshell. Sworn brothers taking sides, being forced to fight for their lives. And the very fact that Loken was the center of the first Heresy books and such a fine example of an Astartes and the potential of the Imperial Truth, that made his death so painful. IMO, Loken's death is symbolic for the end of the Great Crusade.

Bringing him back too life is too..X men....for my tastes.

 

Now, if they had brought him back too life, put him among the Knights Errant and then...returning to Horus side. That would have made my head spin. It would have added something to Horus as well, how the Warmaster could plunge half a galaxy in a civic war.

[Kol Saresk]

Not to mention it'd tie into that constant of 40K where anyone can fall over the smallest reason.

[depthcharge12]

I'm of the mind that Loken will be there for the siege and that Horus Aximand will either die by his hand or shut off the shield generators aboard the Vengeful Spirit to allow the Emps and crew onboard.

 

Aximand and Loken's future seems pretty tied together....so take from that what you will. I don't ever remember Aximands name being mentioned post siege in any books or fluff. This may be due to his introduction to the Heresy, but I can't remember hearing about him in ADB's latest Black Legion book.

[Remus Ventanus.]

I think it would be a fitting end. Loken alluded in galaxy in flames that he wanted to fight on terra, rather then dying in the pits of isvaan 3. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I think it would be a fitting end. Loken alluded in galaxy in flames that he wanted to fight on terra, rather then dying in the pits of isvaan 3. 

He also, when trying to see the future in the Mournival ceremony, saw himself in a desperate fight, next to the Emperor.  Even though he did not see Horus, he had thought he must have been there.  Though as i said it came in a pair of visions that end up being near death.   That he said it again in GiF is just a echo.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

I think it would be a fitting end. Loken alluded in galaxy in flames that he wanted to fight on terra, rather then dying in the pits of isvaan 3. 

He also, when trying to see the future in the Mournival ceremony, saw himself in a desperate fight, next to the Emperor.  Even though he did not see Horus, he had thought he must have been there.  Though as i said it came in a pair of visions that end up being near death.   That he said it again in GiF is just a echo.

 

Its definatlly something im looking forward to learning about. Would be very epic to have loken fight by the emperor in a desperate last stand during the battle of terra

[Memento Of Prospero]

Or it could be one of those middle finger prophecies like Erebus and Argal Tal.

[depthcharge12]

Or it could be one of those middle finger prophecies like Erebus and Argal Tal.

That one was rage quit worthy. ADBastard took away one of my favorite word bearers characters :P

 

 

"...Loken was preparing for the initial Traitor bombardment on Terra. He started to run down a flight of steps to a basement bunker, but then tripped and hit his head against a wall and died. The end."

[Scribe]

Thats how I hope it goes. Or....

 

"Loken swung at the Cultist and missed leaving him over exposed for the counter thrust against all odds...piercing both hearts.

 

He dies instantly and was trampled into the dirt"

[Marshal Rohr]

I just hope they describe how his giraffe neck was a vulnerability easily exploited by his enemies.