First two games with new Ultramarines

[Prot]

Hrm... weird list to me. But I've seen... weirder. :)

 

I had a go last night. The devil is in the details. Problems still exist, but I too am not quite as in love with the Gladius as some. The slight, but important, inflexibilities in it make for very tough choices for me.

 

I used Tigurius, I'll make a mini-report later, but oddly enough I will be using him a LOT again with this codex. But for... his warlord trait. Holy cow.... I love that warlord trait! 

I can only see the magnificent Calgar over taking him in my favorite HQ category, and that's only because I have an incredibly desire to always play characters that smash face, AND lead well. 

 

But Tigurius is so fun.

 

The mini vehicle formations... I just can't seem to 'get it' yet. I don't see incredible value there yet. The Gladius is a more obvious advantage but I do confess my own stubbornness has me unwilling to give up my list freedoms to build it and play it. I will force myself eventually.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Prot - I am in the same house as you, man. I do not think that Galdius bonuses are worth giving up some builds for. If the Gladius coincides with one of my builds, then great. I will play it. But it does not, since it requires an Auxiliary Detachment, all of which I do not think are worth it. I prefer taking my 30 Tacs, 2 TFC, Cent Star or Bike Star with a second Detachment as support, which either is a Formation like Conclave or Imperial Knights. In the end, the game should be decided in the first 2-3 turns and the lest is mopping up.

The question is whether more ranged re-rolls at turns 3+ are that much of a step up considering that you had less efficient units on the board to begin with.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I like my Tanks and Dreads and taking a Demi-Company or such means I get stuck with a squadron of more than I wanted. I might stick to the CAD.

 

But every time I say that, I see the Demi Company rerolls and go all giddy.

 

Curses.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah I like my Tanks and Dreads and taking a Demi-Company or such means I get stuck with a squadron of more than I wanted. I might stick to the CAD.

 

But every time I say that, I see the Demi Company rerolls and go all giddy.

 

Curses.

 

Well, approach it logically like an Ultramarine should. When do you have the most firepower on the board? T1 and T2. If you have a more optimized unit selection in those turns, you will do far more damage than a sub-optimal collection of units. T3 and beyond, you need to score and mop up the survivors. Do re-rolls matter at that point? If you chose the CAD, they do not matter because your superior units comp did more damage T1 and T2. It matters for the Gladius, because you need to balance out your sub-optimal unit selection with more firepower down the line. I prefer the CAD approach for that reason.

And if you are that worried about having more re-rolls, get Conclave to cast Prescience on our most important units.

[Captain Idaho]

That post could only have been better if you phrased it as Theoretical-Practical!

[Ishagu]

 

 

Yeah I like my Tanks and Dreads and taking a Demi-Company or such means I get stuck with a squadron of more than I wanted. I might stick to the CAD.

 

But every time I say that, I see the Demi Company rerolls and go all giddy.

 

Curses.

Well, approach it logically like an Ultramarine should. When do you have the most firepower on the board? T1 and T2. If you have a more optimized unit selection in those turns, you will do far more damage than a sub-optimal collection of units. T3 and beyond, you need to score and mop up the survivors. Do re-rolls matter at that point? If you chose the CAD, they do not matter because your superior units comp did more damage T1 and T2. It matters for the Gladius, because you need to balance out your sub-optimal unit selection with more firepower down the line. I prefer the CAD approach for that reason.

And if you are that worried about having more re-rolls, get Conclave to cast Prescience on our most important units.

Immense wisdom in these words. I agree with your thinking too, it's why I'm still intending to run a CaD.

 

Imo the Demi company and Gladius are more beneficial to the other chapters as it allows them to make a splash early on, on top of their existing rules...

[Frater Cornelius]

BT and UM benefit less from Gladius than the rest. I would also consider IF without because Bolters have permanent re-roll and their best units, the devs, can access re-rolls through wargear. The rest wants those re-rolls.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, BT, White Scars, IF have no benefit from the Gladius. Funnily enough, the Strike Force section in the fluff talk about the Lance (pioneered by the White Scars) and the Dorn's Hammer (IF obviously) Strike forces.

So supplements/extra rules aren't out of the equation just yet :p

A 30 Tactical Marines strong Ultramarines army will have good benefits though, with 3 Tactical doctrines making them a reroll machine. But due to built in doctrines, Ultras are able to choose their force with more freedom.

 

Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands will benefit very well from the Gladius though :)

[Captain Idaho]

3 doctrines? Is that from having a Demi-Company Company or Gladius with 2 Demi-Companies?

[GreyCrow]

One base doctrine for the Chapter Tactics + One for the demi Company + One for the Gladius :)

[Prot]

3 doctrines? Is that from having a Demi-Company Company or Gladius with 2 Demi-Companies?

 

Demi company allows Tactical Doctrine only.

 

Gladius allows use of any of the 3.

 

So since Demi is part of Gladius this allows any of the 3 + Tactical Doctrine. For Ultra's this gives us 2 uses of any doctrine, and/or 3 uses of the Tactical Doctrine.

 

The Gladius is kind of like having Ultramarines. This is kind of annoying to me. Unless I'm reading it wrong, it basically gives any chapter the mechanism to be Ultra's while retaining their own benefits.

[GreyCrow]

@Prot : true enough, but most of these Chapters being Codex adherent, it some what makes sense that they'd get similar benefits due to following the similar structure :)

 

One thing to note is that the Gladius forces non Ultra Chapters to not maximize their CT. Raven Guard for example will be able to field less Jump Marines going with the Gladius points for points than with a CAD. Same goes for Fists and devastators.

 

So, in the end, it's a trade off between : I want to maximize my Chapter Tactics or I want to be Closer to Ultramarines.

[Captain Idaho]

That's my feelings towards it. I consider Ultramarines least hurt by taking the formations but also reasonable outside them (CAD) whereas othet Chapters like Raven Guard might prefer it in reverse.

[Prot]

I see.... that is true. The rigidness of the formation may cost the other chapters their true strength I suppose.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I had a game last night with new codex. I took a CAD and it did not go too well as I was swamped (as usual) with Orks and unable to handle the GOD ORK on a bike with lucky stick/FnP, super Jink mega squad. (turn 2 assault guaranteed usually)

 

In part it was a goofy game because my team was split up, but I thought it would be a decent measuring stick. As usual assault is a huge problem. But diluting the shooting mechanism in Ultra's is something I"m always reluctant to do.

 

Personally, I could tell little difference in my army using a CAD from the old to new codex. I used my Doctrines, the 1's from other doctrines were 'okay' but literally the Dev Doctrine simply replaces (mostly) the effect of Tigurius for a turn.

 

I did not have my Grav Devs together yet so I was forced to take my old Grav Cents with Tiggy. The only 'new' factor was putting Tiggy in the Pod with the Cents as previously I'd have to ally to do this.

 

The army also had 'cheap' Sicarius, whom I would say shall be relegated to Demi-Company duty again going forward. (He still does zero for me at his points level.) 

 

Tigurius did lend 'Rend' to the cents Nipple bolters to 'decent' effect. 

 

The army I faced was so heavy footslogging and I was too pod heavy and in big trouble. My termies came in too late... it was over in turn 4.

 

Better luck next time. ;)

[GreyCrow]

Interesting ! Did you run Centurions ? Wasn't the doctrine redundant with their twin linking (unless you went full Grav :) )

[Captain Idaho]

I really think you'll enjoy taking Honour Guard though that would mean dropping the Centurions. You can get your grav cannons in Tacticals now so you won't lose out too much.

 

It's a different sort of game though. Playing with Honour Guard usually means using a Land Raider and then you need to plan your attack routes etc. However, hitting a mob of Orks with them will make you smile ;)

[Prot]

Interesting ! Did you run Centurions ? Wasn't the doctrine redundant with their twin linking (unless you went full Grav )

Yes. My grav came from the Centurions. I went full grav, and the twin linking is only redundant with the Hurricanes, however the rest of the army is re-rolling 1's so what the heck right?

Let me make sure I remember this right.... (I was trying not to do a full boring batrep, but I realize some context might be necessary):

Theoretical: Centurions can kill anything. With Tigurius? Even a full health Stompa.

Practical: The Stompa could turn the Centurions into tiny cans of tuna if things go wrong.

I -thought- the Stompa had a 5+ cover from a force field. So Tigurius was going to erase that. It turns out it's a 5+ invuln.

From rear armour the Centurions podded in with Tigurius. The Dev Doctrine was declared. X amount of hullpoints went down, but some were saved. Tigurius had also declared his warlord trait for the turn: His squad (w/Centurions) would receive Rending.

The Hurricane bolters took an additional X amount of hullpoints off due to rending. He saved a few more.

At the end of that singular shooting phase the Centurions had removed 8 hullpoints off of the Stompa leaving 4. My Astra partner stripped one more off? (He was in deep trouble already in turn 1)

To back up a bit, the Ironclad had penetrated with his meltagun, but it was saved by the Invuln.

Next turn:

I knew the Stompa wanted to crush me. I could feel it... he went into the runes I was deployed in. But with foresight of this I used Divination to give the Centurions a 4+ Invuln.

It didn't make a difference. 2 Centurions were removed in close combat from D weapons 6 results.

Here's the kicker, and I said this a million and one times already in the last week: This is why Devastators are so much better to me. I would have had ablative wounds, BUT more importantly with Divination I actually DID have the power to roll my Overwatch at FULL Ballistic skill.

I'd bet all the Grav guns on Ultramar that I would have killed that thing outright before it got to me. The only question I had was.... it was his turn, would I have fired 5 or 3 shots per Devastator Grav cannon? Worst case scenario: 12 Grav cannon shots with Grav amps. Best case scenarion: 20 Grav cannon shots with Grav amps. Either scenario needed to take 3 hullpoints off to kill it.

I really think you'll enjoy taking Honour Guard though that would mean dropping the Centurions. You can get your grav cannons in Tacticals now so you won't lose out too much.

It's a different sort of game though. Playing with Honour Guard usually means using a Land Raider and then you need to plan your attack routes etc. However, hitting a mob of Orks with them will make you smile

I would love to try Honour Guard. I have one box set sitting on the shelf. It's been there since they went Finecast. I have no idea what to do with them though, but I'm also a sucker for Landraiders (I own 3).

I will say though overall again... the codex felt almost identical because of my lack of formations.

[Penumbra]

I think the new FW ultra kits combined with normal plastic space marine kits is probably the best place to start for some honour guard, skip the fine cast altogether!

[Captain Idaho]

I want to fit in a Gladius. I'm itching to do so. An identical new Codex is half the fun after all, and I want ALL the funs.

 

Only problem with fitting in a Gladius is then getting 2 Stalkers, Honour Guard and a Predator or 2...

 

It's all points I'm not sure I can squeeze in.

[Frater Cornelius]

I am slowly starting to think that GW did no small Formations for the Gladius to encourage high point plays. I would not be surprised if the CAD will vanish at some point and the smallest amount of points we can play will be 1750... Although then no one but Apoc players will be left, so I think we are safe for now.

Personally, I know I will not buy a single bloody Whirlwind, regardless of how good the Gladius is.

[Ishagu]

Prot, I always find your batreps interesting.

I wouldn't have sent the Centurions after the stompa however, imo dedicated anti tank units would have been assigned to that duty. I'd have tried to clear out the Nob bikers if Tigarius had the ignore cover power, possibly landing at an angle where the warboss would be last to get wounded.

 

On another note, I do still recommend the Vindicator Tank Destroyers - the combined fire from two of these tanks can remove a super heavy per turn. I've not played a game yet where they haven't performed...

[Prot]

I am slowly starting to think that GW did no small Formations for the Gladius to encourage high point plays. I would not be surprised if the CAD will vanish at some point and the smallest amount of points we can play will be 1750... Although then no one but Apoc players will be left, so I think we are safe for now.

Personally, I know I will not buy a single bloody Whirlwind, regardless of how good the Gladius is.

 

Honestly I thought this more with the advent of super heavies and fortifications. Look to the Necron codex for the foundation of this stuff.... I think that the formations add a little bit of spice, but if we could add 4-5 of them in a game it would probably be too much. Too much book keeping, special rules, etc. This way they sell us more vehicles, etc and we have a lot to explore, but I agree we seem to be tipping towards 2K more and more.

 

Whirlwinds... hehe. I have one that couldn't hit a barn, but the formation of 3 is tempting! But then I always look at the Thunderfire and think nah.

 

Prot, I always find your batreps interesting.

I wouldn't have sent the Centurions after the stompa however, imo dedicated anti tank units would have been assigned to that duty. I'd have tried to clear out the Nob bikers if Tigarius had the ignore cover power, possibly landing at an angle where the warboss would be last to get wounded.

 

On another note, I do still recommend the Vindicator Tank Destroyers - the combined fire from two of these tanks can remove a super heavy per turn. I've not played a game yet where they haven't performed...

 

Thank you Ishagu!

 

I don't know what to say. My partner was in deep trouble. So it's funny you mention that choice, because after he deployed and the Ork guy went (I was in full reserves as I am prone to do), I just said to my Astra partner.... look you have a Stompa about 24" away from you.... and you have that ridiculous Warboss FnP Stupid stick combo flying at you.  I can help you on one of those, but not both. You tell me what you think you'd have a better chance of kiling, and I'll go after the other....

 

He chose the bikes for himself, I said okay... I went after the Stompa. I had my one Grav Cent Pod Tiggy combo but my other squads were just Tacts with melta/combi melta and Plasma/combi plasma.

 

My Ironclad was disappointing. He came in turn one with Tiggy and the Cents, but nearly died to Rocket shots from Tank Bustas who really should have glanced him to death, but left him with one. He did nothing all game. (His single shot that hit all game was saved by the invuln.)

 

So what could I chase 12 Hullpoints with? I intended to start with the Centurions, I knew assault was coming, and thinking ahead is what Ultramarines do right? So I conjured up the 4++ invuln and hoped the Hammer/Shield Terminators would come in turn 2, but they would not until turn 3.

 

My Astra partner was in way over his head, he had too many reserves and his Aegis wall was coming apart at the seams. His flyers were too late, his shooting was clogged up and I have trouble remembering him taking out much besides an ork squad out of a truck. My Stormtalon did next to nothing to the bikes with their Jink, FnP. So he got slaughtered until I came with a 10 man tactical squad and took out about 4 of the 12 but it was too late. He was overrun.

 

The best I could do was test the tactics with a simple CAD.

 

This is where I found little changed. Had I been using at least the Gladius I could see if the difference would have been notable, but then no terminators, no Tiggy. Ugh.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think the addition of Grav Cannons to the Tacs was big enough in terms of changes. That literally sky-rocketed their destructive ability in my games. YMMV.

[Prot]

I think the addition of Grav Cannons to the Tacs was big enough in terms of changes. That literally sky-rocketed their destructive ability in my games. YMMV.

 

What would be an example where you're finding this to be so good?

 

I'm just curious because I'm still using my tacticals in pods, going for the Melta/combi melta combo's on vehicles.

[Frater Cornelius]

Because you are not limited to Snapshots on arrival and you get shooting that is superior to a Plasma against 4+ saves or better. Not to mention when they are stationary. This increases their output by a whole lot, making them superior to Grey Hunters by a whole not. Count Doctrines in and you rival many Elite choices. The value of having such a powerful weapon on regular dudes.

Not as useful against Hordes though, but pretty much all armies have targets for Grav, even if its just transports.