Urauloth Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I've not actually seen Any Wolves reactions to the C:SM, Let's just say those of us who bought venerable dreads (which have unique close combat upgrades, even) are really, really not amused at having them stuck with half the attacks of a non-venerable dread equipped with ranged weapons in any codex SM chapter. Given that venerable and melee dreads are a chapter speciality for Space Wolves, it sucks. It's actually the exact same feeling generated by furiosos, so it's a great time to play both SW and BA and own a stack of dreads, let me tell ya SW didn't take the scout hit the same way because wolf scouts already had that statline but were also pretty bad - this just makes them completely awful, because now they're just scouts in an elite slot without a transport option. They might actually be the worst Astartes unit. Wolves also didn't feel the terminator impact the way BA did, becaue TDA wolf guard are a different kettle of fish to begin with. Sure, a price drop in light of the new SM codex would be really nice, but they were the best TDA unit outside the deathwing before the new 'dex, and that hasn't changed with the SM price drop imo. Between their ability to mix wargear and the solid formations they can take, they're still at the the top of the TDA pile. In general, then, yeah, your assessment is absolutely correct, at least as far as I'm concerned. I'd love eviscerators for my skyclaws and cheaper power weapons for my wolf guard, but my SW formations are fine, my terminators are fine, my scouts were already trash, - I'm just mad that I can't squadron my vindicators, and also weeping tears of blood over my dreads. Much like I do here, really. e; oh gods I didn't mean my rambling garbage to hit the page top what have I done. AS for Dark Angels, I'll be really shocked if they don't get the new SM prices and stats built in when they get their new codex. I think we (SW and BA in my case) are going to have to wait for new books to get them, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4090517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 You know what I would really like? The new techmarines. For 65 points you get a 2 wound character with an artificer armor and a power axe that can repair stuff. And you can give him a servo harness for a reasonable amount which gives him better offense and improves his repairing abilities. For 90 point he is awesome. This. I love Tech Marines and think there's a nice bit of fluff behind a BA one, we are artificers after all, a blinged up tech marine would be legit. But I'd also like Thunder Fire cannons so who am I to talk? Also thanks for the Wolf perspective Ghost, it pretty much sounds like I thought it would. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4090553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evildrcheese Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yeah I have much of the same gripes as everyone else. It's left a bitter taste in my mouth that 6 months after our long awaited update we're basically at the bottom of the Astartes pile. I would've loved squadrons of tanks/dreads with more attacks Better scouts (and I'm still sore we didn't get access to the storm) Improved Tech marines and cheap upgrades for VV to actually make them viable without taking the super pointy formation, grav devs etc.. Am I going to play my BA as red marines? No way. If I want a C:SM army I'll build one... D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4090797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 If you want to get really mad about TFC, consider what you get for taking 3 of them in a unit in C:SM . . . In either case, I've had more time to digest C:SM and compare/contrast to C:BA. I think there's still an argument to be made for BA as a legit force, but the big differences come from the 1:1 unit comparisons, where the points costs and efficiency simply don't measure up. A few key examples: C:SM Tactical Squad: +Grav Cannons +Chapter Traits (FnP 6+ from IH, H&R from WS, re-rolls to hit from Ultras, etc.) +Free transports in GSF C:BA Tactical Squad: +Heavy Flamers +Furious Charge +Inferno Pistols/Hand Flamers (Sergeant) This comparison has the primary difference be the heavy weapon options, the Chapter Traits vs. Furious Charge, and access to formations weighed against a few nifty unique upgrades. Not to bad, though; BA's biggest loss IMO is we don't get access to the shiny new Tactical Grav Cannon. Now, for a much harsher example: C:SM Scout Squad: +WS and BS 4 +Landspeeder Storm +10th Company Strike Force +Tellion +Chapter Traits (especially Raven Guard and White Scars) C:BA Scout Squad: +Furious Charge +Inferno Pistol/Hand Flamer (Sergeant) Not much to say here; C:SM Scouts are simply far superior. There are plenty of other examples (Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Vanguard Veterans, Bike Squadrons, etc.) that show a clear dichotomy between the two books, so I think the big takeaway for BA players should be: avoid the units that C:SM just do better, and focus on our unique strengths! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4090962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 FYI, the DA leaks are coming in and they refer to predators as a "unit" for the gladius style DA formation. The associated pictures then show 3 predators which suggest that they get squads of 3 in their unit listings. Not that we should complain or nothing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Fun fact: the new Marine codex (just picked mine up, woo!) lists us, DA and Wolves as "almost entirely divergent" from the Codex Astartes. Ho hum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrunTeufel Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Fun fact: the new Marine codex (just picked mine up, woo!) lists us, DA and Wolves as "almost entirely divergent" from the Codex Astartes. Ho hum. So divergent we train our scouts with one hand tied behind their backs apparently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 So is is there hope agin for an all jumpers army in the next C:BA? Or should we from now on abbreviate it with CAA-BA? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Well if you look at our codex our chapter makeup is pretty standard, just a DC and SG plus priests.... OH well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Fun fact: the new Marine codex (just picked mine up, woo!) lists us, DA and Wolves as "almost entirely divergent" from the Codex Astartes. Ho hum. So divergent we train our scouts with one hand tied behind their backs apparently. Ah, but the other hand strikes harder and faster on the charge! To be honest while I'm a bit pissed about the sole fact GW has, once again, up majorly, I'm not too angry as of now. I haven't had a single game with the new codex yet. Travelling, work, and workout have actually kept me quite busy to paint my stuff - and I do heed the advice of a powergamer I used to know...never play with half-finished miniatures. He obviously used to run the Grey Legion... Turn that into Ron Swanson's phrase: "never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing", I'd rather not play until I've finished my force. Which may take a while. I do hope there'll be a FAQ. The fact that things turned out like this is very stupid. The Skyhammer thingie looks like it was created with BA in mind(and would finally give us a reason to use Devastators), and I've stated my opinion on the profile and point cost differences. And, on top of that, would it actually be too much to ask for to get access to the Land Speeder Storm? Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I think if I had to pick from the list, I'd rather get Centurions, but that's probably a long shot at this point. It's really a shame too, because BA have some gorgeous kits that would sell 1000 times better with the new C:SM changes. For example, the shiny BA Terminators box, Tactical Squad, and of course the Furioso. Even from a business standpoint, it's silly for GW to NOT update our codex with a quick supplement. Even a dataslate titled: "Codex: Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels" with some of the basic points changes and the GSF and its comparable formations, priced at $20 or so, would probably sell a ton of kits. Too bad this would tacitly admit that GW mussed up the C:BA -> C:SM -> C:DA release! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Admittedly the timing of the Blood Angel release is what has gotten me heavily back into the hobby, but yeah it's all a bit silly. Centurion warsuits just seem like something BA wouldn't have IMO, then again white scars and raven guard have them... In my view wed be more likely to have a classic armoury, ala our inferno pistols and hand flamers. Thunder fire cannons come to mind as an ancient design the BA tech Marines could have a great affinity for, suppressing enemy infantry for our fast moving forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Fun fact: the new Marine codex (just picked mine up, woo!) lists us, DA and Wolves as "almost entirely divergent" from the Codex Astartes. Ho hum. Fun fact 2: the BA codex lists BA as mostly codex adherent. Welcome to GW-land where consistency, coherency, sense and logic do not exist. As if one needed more proof that Tom Kirby is the Lord of Change. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 It's all perspective. We say we're adherent to keep the Inquisitors away. They say we're divergent because they are jealous... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4091964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I don't get the "largely divergent" in either case. Just from a BA perspective, our divergences are: +Death Company (which are supposed to be a secret, and aren't a numbered unit) +Sanguinary Guard (which are basically Honor Guard with snazzy jump packs) +Sanguinary Priests (essentially an off-shoot of Chaplains) Otherwise, we have 10 companies (all set up 1:1 with the Codex Chapters) and use roughly the same wargear and squad organization with the only minor deviances being our unique wargear and STC vehicles. So yes, I think the "largely divergent" comment was spurious and lumped us in a little too neatly with the truly divergent (ie. power armored wolf men riding giant cybernetic wolves). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4092364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Centurion warsuits just seem like something BA wouldn't have IMO, then again white scars and raven guard have them... In my view wed be more likely to have a classic armoury, ala our inferno pistols and hand flamers. Thunder fire cannons come to mind as an ancient design the BA tech Marines could have a great affinity for, suppressing enemy infantry for our fast moving forces. Slow and heavy things aren't particularly BA-ish so I can see us not getting Centurions or Thunderfire cannons. On the other hand, I think that we should definitely have got Stormtalons as they fit our favoured style of warfare. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4093403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Njjesters4 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 In the fluff they listed us as extremely adherent to the codex. Stating that after we lost our primarch we embraced the guidance it provided. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4093414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 And yet in the new fluff not so :') Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4093530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 We probably were adherent ten thousand years ago. Today, however, we use our own pattern Dreadnoughts and Tanks, use weaponry and tactics which have gone out of favour with the Codex Chapters (inferno pistol, hand flamer, heavy flamers in Tactical Squads) have our Apothecaries given the same standing as our Chaplains in a role which lies just beneath Dante himself. Both the Sanguinary Guard and Death Company exist outside of the natural order of the Codex Astartes. We eschew various Codex practices (Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, Stormtalons) as they don't fit out ethos (that's not to say we don't have them in our armoury, we just don't use them. The best bit, if we do want them, we can use a Formation ) and we have our own practices which are shunned by those who don't understand us (Exsanguination, etc). Don't know about you, but we rock we do come across as fairly divergent these days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4093542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I told my friend who plays Flesh Tearers that his scouts can be BS/WS4. They let me have drop pods for my CSMs, and we're all getting the Dred/Brute Buff because...it's what it should be damn it. You guys have the Legit 5th edition Furious Charge (+1 initiative and +1 strength) (AKA "The Good one") Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4093550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Back in 3rd ed, BA were the ONLY army that had access to Feel No Pain (for a while anyway) and Furious Charge was +1S +1In. Also, we could assault out of any transport. It was pretty OP. That said, I don't want us to be OP again. I'd be satisfied to be on-par cost and unit wise with C:SM. This will be especially true when C:DA gives them the same buffs as C:SM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4093759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I would say their buffs will be similar/different, but I understand your point. Our point, stat and unit changes will be sorted eventually, be it a FAQ, new Codex or White Dwarf update. As it stands, we have five Detachments (Allied Detachment, ASF, BSF, CAD and FTSF), three Warlord tables, three Relics tables and sixteen Formaitons (excluding Apocalypse Formations). So even if we were to get a "Decurion", it will most likely be a White Dwarf update. Honestly, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with using the SM Formations to augment my forces (which most of us were doing anyway to an extent) and I'm still happy with our Codex. I've also got better things to do than Rage over BS&WS 4 Scouts (don't know about you, but mine rock with BS&WS3) and my Death Company Dreadnoughts have more than enough attacks with Strike Force Mortalis Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4093787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Our Codex returned to normality it seems. We're once more expensive! Yey? :\ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4094208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 We have slightly more expensive non-hammer&board Terminators, Dreadnought weapons and VAS gear. Hardly worth a moan really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4094275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Only one really worth a Damn is the VAS weapons, that would've been nice for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/4/#findComment-4094295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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