Charlo Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Just an update on the DA Dex, thier detachment bonus is overwatch at FULL BS unless jinking. Ours is objective secured... On troops. Edit: no it doesn't, just red thirst in a more restricted way! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4094786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 We have slightly more expensive non-hammer&board Terminators, Dreadnought weapons and VAS gear. Hardly worth a moan really. We cannot field a whole mechanized company under 2000pts, can we? Just an update on the DA Dex, thier detachment bonus is overwatch at FULL BS unless jinking. Wait..what??? This is huge! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4095118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Just an update on the DA Dex, thier detachment bonus is overwatch at FULL BS unless jinking. Wait..what??? This is huge! It's medium, great against combat death stars and works wonders mechanised. Drive up, unload, get charged, unload again! Lots of stuff coming in the rumour thread, thier flyer gets a S10 AP2 small blast that if you roll a double for scatter turns into a Vortex Weapon (so SD....) The knights have +1T in base to base with storm shields and the maces are now AP3 and they can choose to essentially smash (single attack, x2S ap2) Probably not the best place to unload rumours but it's all context In relation I would've loved our Glaives to be able to choose any kind of power weapon each turn... Edit as more info has come to light: Standard overwatch is BS2, they get this with stubourn as thier "Grim Resolve" rule. The Demi Company upgrades this, possibly to the whole Gladius. Also thier Ravenwing detachment lets them turbo boost, jink and then Fire at full BS next turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4095169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hahaha. Welp. Army-wide BS2 (or better) overwatch is going to put a dent in almost all assault lists, and BS4 overwatch is going to kill them. I'm glad I don't have any of our now-overpriced vanguard - even the couple of squads I'm building for my RG are looking like they might not fare so well. We know DA get grav cannons, so... I also wanted to ask about strategies for countering a skyhammer formation, since someone in my local store is one of the people who actually bought the web bundle. It's hard to see how to counter it effetively without list-tailoring specifically (which I don't want to do) but I want to keep in mind that I'm almost certainly going to play against it at some point once my army hits the tabletop. It's... unpleasant, particularly the pinning, overwatch-denying grav devastators. The rest of the army is backfield artillery (FW preds with conversion beamers which I should be able to snipe pretty easily with meltacide ASM pods) and a mix of vanguard vets and sniper scouts. With a pure BA force, I'm tempted to look at trying to kill the preds the obvious way, hide jump DC in the best cover possible and hope the skyhammer drop doesn't kill them all, then try to rally with my own second drop wave; maybe hold back a DC unit and deep strike them the hard way so they miss the cheap shots from the SAF. I would say that sanguinary guard are looking like a better choice with all the power armour flooding the meta, but against high-BS overwatch, idk. One grav cannon in a tac squad is all it'd take to wreck a unit of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4095779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I agree, it's very hard these days. SG feel like they need more survivability with the new Grav abundance for sure, cannons in Tac squads was a bad idea if you ask me, at least the actual cannons are only 2 per box of Devs, so there shouldn't be too many around except for the bits buyers. A Priest may help the SG, but it will only go so far. One thing you could try is lots of scouts? Make the targets less appealing, or screen other units with them and AV. Full BS overwatch though, pretty much any 3+ or better assault unit is going to crumble under two salvos of Grav, even from a Tac squad with Grav/ Grav Cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4095811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Reading the rumors of what DA are apparently to get leaves a bitter taste in my mouth about our codex. It's like giving a small lolly to a kid who then is obviously insanely happy, but then you take out the BIG lolly and give it to another kid and walk away. It's . Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Yeah, it is a shame. We are by no means bad, but we could've done with a couple of new units I think. We're a hybrid assault army where Assault is underwhelming and being somewhat phased out this edition :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Yeah, it is a shame. We are by no means bad, but we could've done with a couple of new units I think. We're a hybrid assault army where Assault is underwhelming and being somewhat phased out this edition It's not even new units. It's better existing ones, and some special rules. When DA can get increased overwatch all of the time, how 'bout we get some charge distance boni? The disappearance of bubbles on our priests and their less widespread use leaves us more vulnerable than ever unless you load up on vehicles, which isn't what everyone likes to do. DA's Interrogator-Chaplains will be our Reclusiarch pendants, with 3 wounds and base attacks. Stat increase all around, possible point reductions. Bah. SG are nice with theur current point costs, yet so vulnerable without an invul and too weak without improved weapon characteristics(rending, please? Anything? ) Amateurs. It's like this is the first time they've written a series of codizes. Ah well. Not gonna bother playing in a while I guess. Just painting. Keep the spirit strong and all that. Snorri Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Yeah, it is a shame. We are by no means bad, but we could've done with a couple of new units I think. We're a hybrid assault army where Assault is underwhelming and being somewhat phased out this edition It's not even new units. It's better existing ones, and some special rules. When DA can get increased overwatch all of the time, how 'bout we get some charge distance boni? The disappearance of bubbles on our priests and their less widespread use leaves us more vulnerable than ever unless you load up on vehicles, which isn't what everyone likes to do. DA's Interrogator-Chaplains will be our Reclusiarch pendants, with 3 wounds and base attacks. Stat increase all around, possible point reductions. Bah. SG are nice with theur current point costs, yet so vulnerable without an invul and too weak without improved weapon characteristics(rending, please? Anything? ) Amateurs. It's like this is the first time they've written a series of codizes. Ah well. Not gonna bother playing in a while I guess. Just painting. Keep the spirit strong and all that. Snorri All of your points are fully excellent dude. +1S on the charge is nice, but overwatch at BS2 is fundamentally stronger. A charge distance bonus of even 1-2 inches would've been welcomed to show our aggressive nature, or potentially a rule that let us always guarantee a charge of 6 or less, like the old days.That would've been very fluffy. I'm pretty furious (heh) that they get to keep a 3W Chaplain with extra gear when we lost ours, when by all means we should have one of the best Reclusiam's around (it's in the name, damnit!) With Necrons having essentially FNP on everything, bubbles would've been welcome - we did get +1WS though to compensate on this, making the Priest a bit more focused in it's application. No Terminator Armour baffles me though, DA get Termiantor Apoths... SG seem to be designed with 4th Edition in mind... With nothing actually changing. The Glave Encarmine should be a weapon with options for being used 1 or 2 handed (Sword/ Axe) that can take many forms, master crafting is nice, but is also a pain as you need to roll every dudes attacks seperately. SG should also have 2 wounds, currently they are just veterans with nice gear, not the true legendary masters of combat they are supposed to be. On the flip side, I've posted a big bunch of positives in the ETL thread, check it out and hopefully get inspired :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Antodeniel Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 In fact, the very problem of the Blood Angels Codex, as we see it now, is that it lack of effeciency and fluff respect compare to the c:sm and the c:da.Maybe, games workshop doesn't know what buff giving to the blood angels, that should explain why we only got the basic +1 initiative on charge.For myself, and i should say that perhaps many people think that way, the whole BA codex should be reworked from the very bases of the army spirit. The Blood angels and successors are supposed to be amongst the most feared of all chapter of the astartes, yet the DA chaplains look to be more fearfull than ours ;s. But what is truly chocking in the end, is that the Blood Angels, the ASSAULT legion of old, strong, powerfull and who protected the very door of the imperial palace, have today, in the codex, no true assaut oriented strategy and buff and is weak compare to all the other chapter.... Now a personnal ideas listing of what could be added to up the blood angels 7th edition dex : - Sanguinary priest with artificer armour and terminator options and fnp 4+ instead of 5+ (Because Sanguinary priest are supposed to be both skillet warrior and beyond all, protector of the chapter very future) - Sanguinary guard with a +1 ws and + 1 wound, should be enough for their cost. - Assault squad like in 5th edition, as troops choice..... normal for an assault oriented chapter..... - Stormtalon and Centurion ASSAULT squad....that would be quite logic too..... - Better sanguinary psychic discipline, to put it on the level of the new DA one....just read this one, it make the sanguinary one laughable, i for myself think it.... - Far more better ASSAULT terminator, with buff that put them on a match with the DA ones.....or for the best, just a step down, not the entire staircase like it is now... - True formation buff, why a not a +1 initiative for everyone, and not just a poor +1 on the charges, if your guys survive the deepstrike turn and the overwatch on DA...for the best exemple..... Well, there is so many thinks, that i would litteraly need a 8th edition codex instead of a FAQ...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Sanguinary is a strong discipline, it's just a little less focused than Interromancy. Most of our spells will turn an average unit into a crazy one (5++, Rage, Quickening) or add another tool to our already large box (Super Fear, Heavy Armour Popping, Exploding Hordes, repositioning units). Although I'd argue that wings should let units charge still, or be a flat movement buff, especially in the light of the new Marine Formation.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I also wanted to ask about strategies for countering a skyhammer formation, since someone in my local store is one of the people who actually bought the web bundle. It's hard to see how to counter it effetively without list-tailoring specifically (which I don't want to do) but I want to keep in mind that I'm almost certainly going to play against it at some point once my army hits the tabletop. It's... unpleasant, particularly the pinning, overwatch-denying grav devastators. The rest of the army is backfield artillery (FW preds with conversion beamers which I should be able to snipe pretty easily with meltacide ASM pods) and a mix of vanguard vets and sniper scouts. Fearless DC make a good starting point since Fearless units cannot be pinned, even on 3D6 Ld checks. After that, get ready for counter charge. Assaulting after DS is nasty but their assault squads are still only S4 A2 off the charge so nothing too much to worry about. DC or Sanguinary Guard will still eat them for breakfast. The Skyhammer formation will bring the pain for a turn, no doubt about it but we have the tools to deal with them after they arrive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I also wanted to ask about strategies for countering a skyhammer formation, since someone in my local store is one of the people who actually bought the web bundle. It's hard to see how to counter it effetively without list-tailoring specifically (which I don't want to do) but I want to keep in mind that I'm almost certainly going to play against it at some point once my army hits the tabletop. It's... unpleasant, particularly the pinning, overwatch-denying grav devastators. The rest of the army is backfield artillery (FW preds with conversion beamers which I should be able to snipe pretty easily with meltacide ASM pods) and a mix of vanguard vets and sniper scouts. Fearless DC make a good starting point since Fearless units cannot be pinned, even on 3D6 Ld checks. After that, get ready for counter charge. Assaulting after DS is nasty but their assault squads are still only S4 A2 off the charge so nothing too much to worry about. DC or Sanguinary Guard will still eat them for breakfast. The Skyhammer formation will bring the pain for a turn, no doubt about it but we have the tools to deal with them after they arrive. True, but you still have to weather the storm of 40+ Grav Shots when they land, assuming full cannons. It's more likely though they will only have 20, as the bundle only comes with 4 Grav Cannons (2 Dev boxes) and they probably won't have loaded up on bits sellers or new Dev boxes as well. Cover and FNP will help, but SG are actually worse off than a normal Marine against Grav! Which doesn't really make sense, as Artificer wouldn't be any heavier than standard power armour, if anything the craftsmanship could mean it's lighter, if I were to change grav I'd put it at a Maximum to wound of 4+ but is better on bulky/ very bulky units, but I digress... One thing that we have to react to the Skyhammer that no one else does is fast Vindicators. Hide one or two in your back line out of sight and sure enough the opponent will be worried to drop anywhere near and just when they think they have it, next turn you show him what a 36" threat range Demolisher Cannon can really do to some bunched up Marine squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronhour Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Ws 4 scouts at i5 on the charge Is what I want the most. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronhour Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 How to counter the skyhammer formation? Put everything in transports bar the 4 units of dc you're using. Fearless troops don't go to ground ;p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4096992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I don't get the whining about DA chaplains being better.. Their WHOLE chapter is built around the idea of a religious crusade against their own traitorous brethern - their interrogator chaplains SHOULD be the best out there. Yes out chaplains take care of the Death Company, but so do the Sanguinary Priests. It's not a defacto job that makes them badass. To the contrary it's probably an awful distraction. As it is, the BA Codex is subpar, but it's workable. Some of the stuff we lack would add taste, some of the stuff we lack would bring balance, but it is what it is. Worst case scenario, you buy the C:SM and ally in a second BA detachment of Blood Angels (aka Red Marines) and play your army that way. It's exceptionally easy considering the stuff you would want from C:SM are cheaper anyway - you will probably get a free second HQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 How awesome would BAs be if we could use our own units in a Skyhammer Formation. When vanilla marines get to be more assaulty than us, I feel neutered. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Worst case scenario, you buy the C:SM and ally in a second BA detachment of Blood Angels (aka Red Marines) and play your army that way. I'll be playing red marines for a while as my main, not sure though what to bring from Codex BA. Things we do that C:SM don't do quite as well; Flame tacticals or flamer assault squads Ignoring cover is not easy to spam in C:SM. You are dependent on getting lucky with a librarian or taking the relatively expensive command squads / LotD. We do this better in both troops and FA sots. They do have the whirlwind formation but frankly I think it's a lot of points for 9 AV11 HPs + speeder. Librarian dread Still more cost effective monster slayer than grav spam. Would of course benefit greatly from double attacks as in C:SM but 'force', character status and striking first is huge. Other than that I just don't know? Jump DC maybe, but IMHO they aren't good enough. Distraction DC in pods are probably a better match for gunline-style marine armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 My DA detachment will keep: Librarian: Because Sanguinary Discipline is awesome Tactical Squads: Because Furious Charge and the ability to take a Heavy Flamer when needed is better than Situational Grav Cannons Death Company: Because there's still nothing more game changing than a Pod of Boltgun DC Baal Predator: Because it's still the best Dakka tank in the game IMO Bike Squad: Because Furious Charge and Plasma/Grav Spam is still great, especially if you have a .. Priest on Bike: ...to go with your Bike Squad My SM detachment will have: Techmarine: W2 Scout Squads: WS4 BS4 2 HS Dreadnoughts: A4, cheaper weapons I just don't know where to take my Tactical Terminators, really. Yes, the SM detachment would have them for 5 pts cheaper but Furious Charge on Heavy Flamer Tactical Terminators (The Only Kind Worth Taking TM) is all kinds of awesome.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I just don't know where to take my Tactical Terminators, really. Yes, the SM detachment would have them for 5 pts cheaper but Furious Charge on Heavy Flamer Tactical Terminators (The Only Kind Worth Taking TM) is all kinds of awesome.. I dont understand. The only model that really benefits from FC in a tac term squad is the sergeant. +1I is wasted on powerfists, and the difference in S8 -> S9 is negligible. 35pt termies let you take 6 instead of 5 for the same points cost. If anything, White Scar flamer termies would be better, as you can deepstrike, flame, get charged, wall of death, hit and run, flame, and charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I just don't know where to take my Tactical Terminators, really. Yes, the SM detachment would have them for 5 pts cheaper but Furious Charge on Heavy Flamer Tactical Terminators (The Only Kind Worth Taking TM) is all kinds of awesome.. I dont understand. The only model that really benefits from FC in a tac term squad is the sergeant. +1I is wasted on powerfists, and the difference in S8 -> S9 is negligible. 35pt termies let you take 6 instead of 5 for the same points cost. If anything, White Scar flamer termies would be better, as you can deepstrike, flame, get charged, wall of death, hit and run, flame, and charge. Actually difference between S8 and S9 can mean a world of difference against AV13/14 and T5+; I really think you are not thinking straight here.. Are WS Terminators good? Yes, sure. But S9 Power/Chain Fists are also great. EDIT: Also BA have FS pods to stick terminators in, if that's your thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 How to counter the skyhammer formation? Put everything in transports bar the 4 units of dc you're using. Fearless troops don't go to ground ;p Good point. Grav cannons are an expensive way to destroy Rhinos. :D The other thing to remember is that the Skyhammer has to arrive on T1 or T2. Put a Stormraven with some decent units inside in Reserve and they should be all set for a T3 charge and the Skyhammer won't be able to hit them when they turn up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Yeah, unless the Assault Marines are packing Melta bombs or an Evicerator an AV dread could charge them uncontested. Even then I doubt people will be running full 10 man squads of these things, and one dread is enough to cripple a tiny squad on the charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 But how will you get that into combat without having it immobilized or glanced to death by grav? Dreads can't hide in rhinos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 But how will you get that into combat without having it immobilized or glanced to death by grav? Dreads can't hide in rhinos. They can ride Drop Pods though? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309203-from-ba-to-csm/page/5/#findComment-4097321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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