From BA to C:SM

[Charlo]

But how will you get that into combat without having it immobilized or glanced to death by grav? Dreads can't hide in rhinos.

Clever deployment!

 

Or offering up a juicier target for them, like a Vindi or something.

 

Honestly this formation is just utter gouda really. Could always castle up in a fortification, but if they bring Multimeltas (very likely on relentless platforms) they won't last long...

[vahouth]

Can the dreads overwatch? I cannot check right now.

[knife&fork]

 

But how will you get that into combat without having it immobilized or glanced to death by grav? Dreads can't hide in rhinos.

 

They can ride Drop Pods though?

 

 

Yes, but they can't charge on the turn they arrive. 

 

Counter -reserves and cheap transports will definitely take the edge off the skyhammer formation. I just don't see the dreads being much help, they aren't good enough at killing PA-bodies.

[appiah4]

 

 

But how will you get that into combat without having it immobilized or glanced to death by grav? Dreads can't hide in rhinos.

 

They can ride Drop Pods though?

 

 

Yes, but they can't charge on the turn they arrive. 

 

Counter -reserves and cheap transports will definitely take the edge off the skyhammer formation. I just don't see the dreads being much help, they aren't good enough at killing PA-bodies.

 

 

Not even the Fragrioso?

[knife&fork]

The fragioso is sadly way back on the power curve with grav and high S/D weapons being everywhere.

 

Sure you could luck out and roll a large amounts of rends vs marines, but on average it's pretty weak these days considering the cost. 

[Jolemai]

This thread is going to give me an aneurysm.

The whole negatively vibe here is truly astounding and it really comes to something when Appiah is amongst those making positive and constructive comments. We haven't suddenly become rubbish in the course of a month and truth be told, if you are getting rolled using this Codex and everything else we have at our disposal then either your list building or your generalship is at fault.

Honestly, how many of you have bought a PC? Your PC is literally out of date within a week but you don't go crying about it because it still does the job. So can you using our Faction.

We have slightly more expensive non-hammer&board Terminators, Dreadnought weapons and VAS gear.

Hardly worth a moan really.

We cannot field a whole mechanized company under 2000pts, can we?

Not sure what you're getting at with the mechanised company reply. Do you have time to explain it please? :)

Yeah, it is a shame. We are by no means bad, but we could've done with a couple of new units I think.

We're a hybrid assault army where Assault is underwhelming and being somewhat phased out this edition

It's not even new units. It's better existing ones, and some special rules. When DA can get increased overwatch all of the time, how 'bout we get some charge distance boni? The disappearance of bubbles on our priests and their less widespread use leaves us more vulnerable than ever unless you load up on vehicles, which isn't what everyone likes to do. DA's Interrogator-Chaplains will be our Reclusiarch pendants, with 3 wounds and base attacks. Stat increase all around, possible point reductions. Bah. SG are nice with theur current point costs, yet so vulnerable without an invul and too weak without improved weapon characteristics(rending, please? Anything? )

Amateurs. It's like this is the first time they've written a series of codizes.

Ah well. Not gonna bother playing in a while I guess. Just painting. Keep the spirit strong and all that.

Snorri

Snorri

Snorri, you haven't even had the pleasure of popping the cherry of your copy of our Codex yet. Perhaps play a few games first? We have a pretty decent Codex that hasn't suddenly got worse because someone else has some new toys. We still perform just as well against other races as we did last month.

How awesome would BAs be if we could use our own units in a Skyhammer Formation.
When vanilla marines get to be more assaulty than us, I feel neutered.

How does one Formation containing two RAS suddenly make them more assaulty? We are stronger on the charge across the board, with BSF we are faster across the board, we have more assault based buffs and if you really want to charge on the turn you Deep Strike we have a far better Formation which can potentially allow us to charge with anything.

But how will you get that into combat without having it immobilized or glanced to death by grav? Dreads can't hide in rhinos.

They can ride Drop Pods though?

Yes, but they can't charge on the turn they arrive.

Counter -reserves and cheap transports will definitely take the edge off the skyhammer formation. I just don't see the dreads being much help, they aren't good enough at killing PA-bodies.

You play with Dreadnoughts more than most of us, but I feel that you are letting your fear of the new books cloud your judgement. Are you honestly saying that given the various ways of getting a Dreadnought into combat and the various loadouts we can use, you can't find a use for them?

[Frater Antodeniel]

The problem isn't really if the Blood Angels is a bad army, but about the difference of stats and fluff respect that occurs cause of the new releases of the c:sm and c:da.

 

The point isn't a need to transform the Blood Angels into a DeathStar army the always win, no, the point is to ajust the c:BA to the other spaces marines codex.

 

Of course, the Blood Angels aren't without flaw, it is even one the very concept of the army. But the BA scout aren't badly train too, so they should be at the same stats than the others, and the same can be said for the dreadnought and their base number of attack.

 

And there is also others little things that could be added to the codex to made it more "logic". A comeback of the reclusiarch 5th editions adapted to the 7th ? Sanguinary Priest with artificer armour option (What is more important than the chapter very future, and the GW already wear what look like to be an artificer armour....) ? Blood Claw special extra-attack rule (5th edition) return for the dreadnought, even with a limitation on the extra-attack, it would still be fine ?

 

I think that those kind of things are little change when we think about it, but today, it would really change the tides of how many see their army. It would be strong and logic choice to put back the codex on the rails without transforming it into a deathstar that would be unplayable in the end, cause of the lack of opponent....(logic^^)

[vahouth]

@Jolemai

SM can field a whole company, fully complemented with rhinos or Drop Pod for about 400 pts cheaper than us.

 

As for the more assaulty skyhammer, more meltas, or flamers, plus furious charge. A SM player would have to invoke the Assault doctrine to be as effective.

What makes them more assaulty than us though is the 1st turn charge after DSing. Unless we can do that too, in which case, I somehow missed it.

[Jolemai]

@Jolemai

SM can field a whole company, fully complemented with rhinos or Drop Pod for about 400 pts cheaper than us.

 

How often is anyone really going to field a double Demi-Company in their Gladius? It's nice but it's not game breaking. I run a mech force and as nice as it is to role with that, they need support from other sources - usually more tanks. If you start putting the points into this you are a) restricted on what you take and b) taking less support which is the main way a themed list fails.

As for the more assaulty skyhammer, more meltas, or flamers, plus furious charge. A SM player would have to invoke the Assault doctrine to be as effective.

What makes them more assaulty than us though is the 1st turn charge after DSing. Unless we can do that too, in which case, I somehow missed it.

 

We can get a first turn charge by taking the Angel's Fury Spearhead Force, a Formation from White Dwarf 47 and then arriving via Drop Pod with some assault goodness. It's expensive (points and pounds), but it is glorious. As for the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, regardless of what flavour they are, they will not hit as hard nor as fast as us. They don't have the same weapon options and thus, should be used differently. Even so, they are plain RAS. They aren't BA RAS which remain the best in the game.

[vahouth]

Oh.

I haven't purchased a WD in ages and didn't know what was that formation about. I'll check it out. :)

[Jolemai]

Oh.

I haven't purchased a WD in ages and didn't know what was that formation about. I'll check it out.

PM sent :)

[knife&fork]

This thread is going to give me an aneurysm.

The whole negatively vibe here is truly astounding and it really comes to something when Appiah is amongst those making positive and constructive comments. We haven't suddenly become rubbish in the course of a month and truth be told, if you are getting rolled using this Codex and everything else we have at our disposal then either your list building or your generalship is at fault.

You play with Dreadnoughts more than most of us, but I feel that you are letting your fear of the new books cloud your judgement. Are you honestly saying that given the various ways of getting a Dreadnought into combat and the various loadouts we can use, you can't find a use for them?

For the bolded part it's not us getting worse. It was 'crons and eldar getting even better and not confirming to the trend of previous 7th ed releases. I'm not going to call my parent chapter rubbish, but I'm sure many players with a strong competitive mindset would.

Optimism is fine but the truth is that the BA codex is pretty weak on it's own. Unless I'm honest about this, how am I supposed to find ways to mitigate it?

I'm actually not too bothered about C:SM as much as I'm looking for an opportunity to build a stronger marine list, preferably with many BA elements and an aggressive play style.

As for the dreads....

I love them but I don't think they are cost effective. The way I used to play them was to establish local superiority by removing as much of the anti-AV stuff as possible and then having them rampage virtually unopposed. Rarely is that possible anymore thanks to the arms race that's been going on since 6th. There's just too many models with melta, haywire, super heavies, lances, D, gauss etc.... Grav is also an issue since our best dreads shine at close range or in melee. A single imob result will render the dread useless, that's not the case with a vindicator or pred.

Dreads can be very useful, but they are also vulnerable when going up against eldar, 'crons and SM (and DA from the looks of it). That's why IMHO the BA dreads are now a specialist unit rather than a staple unit.

[Jolemai]

If anyone is interested, C:DA lists Scouts as having WS and BS 4 and their Dreadnoughts having 4 Attacks - so there goes the dream of it being a typo

DA leaks begin here for those interested.

[vahouth]

Thanks for the PM Jolemai.

I see a very interesting synergy between the SR and RAS formations, and I'm intrigued to try it for a 2000 pts game. I'm just 2 SRs short...at the moment.

[Bukimimaru]

I'm pretty happy with the way things are at the moment.

My BA can still out-assault any of our like-for-like powerarmour brothers and if I'm really dying to take a Space Marine unit I can take them as allies.

All of their formations are available to us and we get to keep all of our awesome BA only units like DC and SG.

 

Compaining that we dont get WS4 scouts (at least in my opinion) is the same as complaining we dont get Carnifexes or Scatterlazers. Different codexes will have different stuff.

 

Does that mean I wouldnt rather have WS4 scouts or Cheaper terms? Of course not, but one codex getting a few small buff doesnt immediatly make our codex any worse then it was a month ago. Now when most/all the other codexes get better and we don't, then we have a warrented issue.

[Bartali]

Optimism is fine but the truth is that the BA codex is pretty weak on it's own. Unless I'm honest about this, how am I supposed to find ways to mitigate it?

It's far better to be a realist

I think some people can get caught up in and identify on a personal level with their chosen faction, or with 40K in general.. It can lead to overwhelmingly optimistic view points, or lead to huge rage quits

Sometimes people need to step back a bit and look at what is in essence just a game of soldiers.

[Gaweda]

Just FYI, I have beaten the new eldar and the new necron with our codex. Close, bloody battles, but I enjoyed the challenge.

[Quixus]

BatRep or it didn't happen ;)

[Blindhamster]

All of their formations are available to us and we get to keep all of our awesome BA only units like DC and SG.

 

Quick note: we can't use space marine faction formations. Confirmed with GW directly, check the FAQ thread

[Jolemai]

Actually, we can use whatever we want.

 

What you are referring to is that Formations such as the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, etc, use units from C:SM and not C:BA and so on :)

[Blindhamster]

It's based on the icon in the formation data slate, as per the email that's in the FAQ

[SnorriSnorrison]

This thread is going to give me an aneurysm.

The whole negatively vibe here is truly astounding and it really comes to something when Appiah is amongst those making positive and constructive comments. We haven't suddenly become rubbish in the course of a month and truth be told, if you are getting rolled using this Codex and everything else we have at our disposal then either your list building or your generalship is at fault.

You might wanna have a doc get a good look at that, mate!

The negative vibe is justified. It's not about us being weak, because we're not. It's because others that are of the same faction in the game have become significantly better, and we've been left behind to play with the remnants. Within a short amount of time since our release. No need to give negativity back to players or even question their generalship when they're merely unsatisfied with the very irrational decisions of Gee-Dub, especially when some of them spent a whole lot of money on the books.

Yeah, it is a shame. We are by no means bad, but we could've done with a couple of new units I think.

We're a hybrid assault army where Assault is underwhelming and being somewhat phased out this edition

It's not even new units. It's better existing ones, and some special rules. When DA can get increased overwatch all of the time, how 'bout we get some charge distance boni? The disappearance of bubbles on our priests and their less widespread use leaves us more vulnerable than ever unless you load up on vehicles, which isn't what everyone likes to do. DA's Interrogator-Chaplains will be our Reclusiarch pendants, with 3 wounds and base attacks. Stat increase all around, possible point reductions. Bah. SG are nice with theur current point costs, yet so vulnerable without an invul and too weak without improved weapon characteristics(rending, please? Anything? )

Amateurs. It's like this is the first time they've written a series of codizes.

Ah well. Not gonna bother playing in a while I guess. Just painting. Keep the spirit strong and all that.

Snorri

Snorri, you haven't even had the pleasure of popping the cherry of your copy of our Codex yet. Perhaps play a few games first? We have a pretty decent Codex that hasn't suddenly got worse because someone else has some new toys. We still perform just as well against other races as we did last month.

Mate, this is not about us being weak. It's about stuff that could have, should have been fixed in our codex when the time came. I'm nowhere saying that our codex is crap, as you possibly have read in my reply. I look on what's written on one piece of paper, compare it to what's written on another piece of paper and note differences where there shouldn't be any. Not even mentioning the situational chapter special rules for us. I do love the +1 initiative and strength on the charge, but when I see what others get in comparison, it does make me raise a finger going "ah, mate, that's not exactly on the same powerlevel". Which I believe every codex should be. It's about justice. Give everyone back the 3-wound chaplains!

If we were to get an updated version of the codex(the cover is too sweet, though) in the same timespan like the DA did, no problem. I'd cease my whining. But we're not.

Yes, I do say that the Sanguinary Guard, albeit being one of my favourite units in the codex and even with their "updated" point costs, are still very situational and fragile, when they should be quite powerful. Not as powerful as in 5th edition, but a bit more than they're now. Because frankly, if I wanted to fight hordes, I'd bring Death Company. If I wanted to fight Terminators, I'd bring Death Company. If I wanted to fight other Marines, I'd bring Death Company. Maybe I'd bring SG too, but mainly I'd bring Death Company.

And certainly we don't perform as good against Dark Angels as before, just to get back to your statement. BS2 overwatch is going to put a serious dent in our assault based lists, especially because this edition doesn't favour assault in any case. And yes, I do believe that indeed is because someone else got new toys.

Snorri

[Charlo]

 

All of their formations are available to us and we get to keep all of our awesome BA only units like DC and SG.

Quick note: we can't use space marine faction formations. Confirmed with GW directly, check the FAQ thread

 

 

It's based on the icon in the formation data slate, as per the email that's in the FAQ

 

I knew the wording on that sodding email would cause controversy as soon as you posted it. It was incredibly misleading.

 

Icon at the top purely determines the faction of the units that can make up/ are included in the formations.

 

What the GW rep meant to say to you was that you cannot make up those formations from BA Units, as they are a different factions.

 

We, as are any other army in the game (yes even orks, nids, tau, even Chaos!), are within' our rights to take a Skyhammer Anihilation Force - The Units must just be taken from C:SM and not any other.

 

We can take any formation from C:SM as a standalone deal, as long as it has a dataslate, and still be Battle Forged.

 

I will possibly be taking the Speeder/ Whirlwind formation for example and adding it to my lists as it's pretty awesome, and frees up HS/ FA slots in a BSF/ CAD.

 

I really do apologise if this post sounds angry towards you Blindhamster, I mean nothing of the sort! I just feel very angry that GW has given you incredibly poorly worded mis-information regarding your question and actually think you should write back saying for them to be careful of thier wording next time!

[Jolemai]

Lets try this again.

 

Every Formation has a Faction. Ordinarily this is listed on the Formation Datasheet, but of late, it has been appearing as the Faction icon at the top of the Datasheet.

 

Formations are not Faction locked; you can take any number and combination of Formations to be Battleforged with the only concern being how they interact with each other via the Ally rules.

 

For example, I can legally take a Bloodied Demi Company (Faction: BA, contains Warlord), Mayhem Pack (Faction: CSM), Covenite Fleshcorps (Faction: DE) and a Tau Firebase Support Cadre (Faction: Tau) in my army.

 

The email in question:

 

 

 

I had an email confirming we can't use it (without using the vanilla Dex)
 

Hey there Alisdair,

The Skyhammer Annihilation Force datasheet has the Space Marine Faction, so they wouldn't benefit from any of the Blood Angels' special rules (they would benefit from the Chapter Tactics special rule from Codex: Space Marines instead).

The Space Marine Faction icon on the datasheet means they are Space Marine Assault Squads and Devastator Squads in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, chosen from Codex: Space Marines; although those are units that also exist in the Blood Angels army list, other Space Marine Formations will include units that only exist in Codex: Space Marines, because there is a Space Marine Faction icon at the top.

So as they stand, the Formations in Codex: Space Marines are as available to Blood Angels collectors as a Land Speeder Storm or an Ironclad Dreadnought from Codex: Space Marines is – those datasheets don't exist with a Blood Angels Faction icon on them, and they don't appear in Codex: Blood Angels, but if you wanted to paint some red and use them as part of an Unbound army you certainly could do.

If your opponent was happy for them to use Blood Angels rules with them, we certainly wouldn't stop them doing it in the privacy of their own home, but according to the rules these are Space Marine Formations, not Blood Angels Formations.

I hope this clarifies things for you,

Best wishes,

Sophie

 

 

Cheers, adding to the FAQ list.

 

 

 

 

merely points out that the Skyhammer Annihilation Force will not use C:BA rules. Simply put, if you take it, chose a suitable Chapter Trait from C:SM and away you go :)

[knife&fork]

 

And certainly we don't perform as good against Dark Angels as before, just to get back to your statement. BS2 overwatch is going to put a serious dent in our assault based lists, especially because this edition doesn't favour assault in any case. And yes, I do believe that indeed is because someone else got new toys.

 

 

I wouldn't worry too much about BS 2 overwatch, if anything it's the stacked bonuses from ravenwing units and formation detachments that's going to hurt. :D

 

But that's not a new thing for BA. Essentially we have two things missing from our codex that are needed to succeed in 7th ed. 

 

Spammable, high quality shooting that ignores cover. 

Ways to deal effectively with super heavies and GMCs. 

 

That's really the only things you 'need' to cover with other sources if you play BA.