From BA to C:SM

[Jolemai]

And certainly we don't perform as good against Dark Angels as before, just to get back to your statement. BS2 overwatch is going to put a serious dent in our assault based lists, especially because this edition doesn't favour assault in any case. And yes, I do believe that indeed is because someone else got new toys.

I wouldn't worry too much about BS 2 overwatch, if anything it's the stacked bonuses from ravenwing units and formation detachments that's going to hurt.

But that's not a new thing for BA. Essentially we have two things missing from our codex that are needed to succeed in 7th ed.

Spammable, high quality shooting that ignores cover.

Ways to deal effectively with super heavies and GMCs.

That's really the only things you 'need' to cover with other sources if you play BA.

You don't see our preponderance for melta weaponry or our ability to field grav weaponry a suitable counter for either?

[Blindhamster]

Ah yes I knew that (sorry!) But it does mean you have to also purchase a marine codex as well... which if we do, just disincentives GW to do anything about our own codex.

[knife&fork]

 

You don't see our preponderance for melta weaponry or our ability to field grav weaponry a suitable counter for either?

 

 

It's a question of concentration. There's no problem fielding enough melta guns or grav in a BA list to deal with a GMC or super heavy, it's just that we have to allocate an unfavorable amount of units/points in the process. 

[Jolemai]

This thread is going to give me an aneurysm.

The whole negatively vibe here is truly astounding and it really comes to something when Appiah is amongst those making positive and constructive comments. We haven't suddenly become rubbish in the course of a month and truth be told, if you are getting rolled using this Codex and everything else we have at our disposal then either your list building or your generalship is at fault.

You might wanna have a doc get a good look at that, mate!

The negative vibe is justified. It's not about us being weak, because we're not. It's because others that are of the same faction in the game have become significantly better, and we've been left behind to play with the remnants. Within a short amount of time since our release. No need to give negativity back to players or even question their generalship when they're merely unsatisfied with the very irrational decisions of Gee-Dub, especially when some of them spent a whole lot of money on the books.

Our codex has been out since November and yes, it seems like we caught the wrong end of a design change. However, the gap isn't huge and for the most part, it really doesn't matter what other Factions may or may not do. As for playing against them, the power curve really isn't that huge. Take Scouts - they will hit us easier in combat, but should we get the charge we will hit them first and wound them easier. It's really neither here nor there. Do you realise our regular Death Company Dreadnoughts can get EIGHT attacks on the charge if the stars align and the correct Formation is used? (3 base, +1 two weapons, +2 Rage, +1 Fury of the Forlorn (found in Strike Force Mortalis), +1 Unleash Rage) What Dreadnought can compete with that?

I'm not questioning the competence of my fellow generals with regards to GWs decisions, merely their inability to evolve. Seriously, there are some stubborn people on here!

Yeah, it is a shame. We are by no means bad, but we could've done with a couple of new units I think.

We're a hybrid assault army where Assault is underwhelming and being somewhat phased out this edition

It's not even new units. It's better existing ones, and some special rules. When DA can get increased overwatch all of the time, how 'bout we get some charge distance boni? The disappearance of bubbles on our priests and their less widespread use leaves us more vulnerable than ever unless you load up on vehicles, which isn't what everyone likes to do. DA's Interrogator-Chaplains will be our Reclusiarch pendants, with 3 wounds and base attacks. Stat increase all around, possible point reductions. Bah. SG are nice with theur current point costs, yet so vulnerable without an invul and too weak without improved weapon characteristics(rending, please? Anything? )

Amateurs. It's like this is the first time they've written a series of codizes.

Ah well. Not gonna bother playing in a while I guess. Just painting. Keep the spirit strong and all that.

Snorri

Snorri, you haven't even had the pleasure of popping the cherry of your copy of our Codex yet. Perhaps play a few games first? We have a pretty decent Codex that hasn't suddenly got worse because someone else has some new toys. We still perform just as well against other races as we did last month.

Mate, this is not about us being weak. It's about stuff that could have, should have been fixed in our codex when the time came. I'm nowhere saying that our codex is crap, as you possibly have read in my reply. I look on what's written on one piece of paper, compare it to what's written on another piece of paper and note differences where there shouldn't be any. Not even mentioning the situational chapter special rules for us. I do love the +1 initiative and strength on the charge, but when I see what others get in comparison, it does make me raise a finger going "ah, mate, that's not exactly on the same powerlevel". Which I believe every codex should be. It's about justice. Give everyone back the 3-wound chaplains!

Ah hindsight. When our book came out (along with C:SW beforehand), Scouts with BS 3, etc, seemed fine. I have no idea why they suddenly decided to change this in the time following our book but you really can't say that it should have been done then when they likely hadn't even thought of it then! As for what I've taken from the above spoilered post is that you're complaining about things we lost from the Codex change (basically undoing the damage that Ward did) and that you're not going to bother with the new book - a book which is infinitely better and it can even be argued that the majority of us are not actively missing some of the changes. [As an aside, Reclusiarchs and Priests in TDA were likely pulled due to having no model and this has been done quite a bit following the Chapterhouse lawsuit aftermath. Who knows? Perhaps we'll get a dataslate for them down the line like they did with Mycetic Spores, etc]

If we were to get an updated version of the codex(the cover is too sweet, though) in the same timespan like the DA did, no problem. I'd cease my whining. But we're not.

Yes, I do say that the Sanguinary Guard, albeit being one of my favourite units in the codex and even with their "updated" point costs, are still very situational and fragile, when they should be quite powerful. Not as powerful as in 5th edition, but a bit more than they're now. Because frankly, if I wanted to fight hordes, I'd bring Death Company. If I wanted to fight Terminators, I'd bring Death Company. If I wanted to fight other Marines, I'd bring Death Company. Maybe I'd bring SG too, but mainly I'd bring Death Company.

SG have improved, but require careful use and are more dependent on buffs to function than DC. They can still work this edition but have a lot more of a niche than DC. As a general rule though, you can't go wrong taking more DC!

And certainly we don't perform as good against Dark Angels as before, just to get back to your statement. BS2 overwatch is going to put a serious dent in our assault based lists, especially because this edition doesn't favour assault in any case. And yes, I do believe that indeed is because someone else got new toys.

Any themed list - which Deathwing players are today finding out - can only function with a suitable amount of support. We remain faster than the Dark Angels meaning it is still possible to kite them and outshoot there nasty Overwatch stuff. Additionally, Overwatch can be mitigated with mutlicharging or sending in something to eat the higher-strength shots. You can even use cover to your advantage as you can only Overwatch what you can see. I agree that we will find C:DA more of a challenge now but my point was that we aren't suddenly going to find anyone difficult just because they have a new book - which is the primary take home message I'm getting from many on this thread, hence the brain ache.

Snorri

Snorri, when I first arrived on B&C I was looking to your guides for inspiration. You are part of the reason I (kind of) know what I'm talking about and they are one of the reasons why I run DC lists. I admire your generalship and certainly your painting logs, so it pains me to be at loggerheads with you over this :(

[SnorriSnorrison]

This thread is going to give me an aneurysm.

The whole negatively vibe here is truly astounding and it really comes to something when Appiah is amongst those making positive and constructive comments. We haven't suddenly become rubbish in the course of a month and truth be told, if you are getting rolled using this Codex and everything else we have at our disposal then either your list building or your generalship is at fault.

*snip*

Our codex has been out since November and yes, it seems like we caught the wrong end of a design change. However, the gap isn't huge and for the most part, it really doesn't matter what other Factions may or may not do. As for playing against them, the power curve really isn't that huge. Take Scouts - they will hit us easier in combat, but should we get the charge we will hit them first and wound them easier. It's really neither here nor there. Do you realise our regular Death Company Dreadnoughts can get EIGHT attacks on the charge if the stars align and the correct Formation is used? (3 base, +1 two weapons, +2 Rage, +1 Fury of the Forlorn (found in Strike Force Mortalis), +1 Unleash Rage) What Dreadnought can compete with that?

I'm not questioning the competence of my fellow generals with regards to GWs decisions, merely their inability to evolve. Seriously, there are some stubborn people on here!

You'll notice though that their dreads have 5 attacks on the charge all the time, no formations and psykers required. And we don't even have venerable ones, either! So little thought in that. A shame, really.

No, the gap isn't huge. It's just so very annoying because it makes the codex seem like careless and sloppy work, no matter how decent it works out on the tabletop. Maybe it's just how it's going to be for the next 2 or so years. So be it, then.

Yeah, it is a shame. We are by no means bad, but we could've done with a couple of new units I think.

We're a hybrid assault army where Assault is underwhelming and being somewhat phased out this edition

It's not even new units. It's better existing ones, and some special rules. When DA can get increased overwatch all of the time, how 'bout we get some charge distance boni? The disappearance of bubbles on our priests and their less widespread use leaves us more vulnerable than ever unless you load up on vehicles, which isn't what everyone likes to do. DA's Interrogator-Chaplains will be our Reclusiarch pendants, with 3 wounds and base attacks. Stat increase all around, possible point reductions. Bah. SG are nice with theur current point costs, yet so vulnerable without an invul and too weak without improved weapon characteristics(rending, please? Anything? )

Amateurs. It's like this is the first time they've written a series of codizes.

Ah well. Not gonna bother playing in a while I guess. Just painting. Keep the spirit strong and all that.

Snorri

Snorri, you haven't even had the pleasure of popping the cherry of your copy of our Codex yet. Perhaps play a few games first? We have a pretty decent Codex that hasn't suddenly got worse because someone else has some new toys. We still perform just as well against other races as we did last month.

*snip*

Ah hindsight. When our book came out (along with C:SW beforehand), Scouts with BS 3, etc, seemed fine. I have no idea why they suddenly decided to change this in the time following our book but you really can't say that it should have been done then when they likely hadn't even thought of it then! As for what I've taken from the above spoilered post is that you're complaining about things we lost from the Codex change (basically undoing the damage that Ward did) and that you're not going to bother with the new book - a book which is infinitely better and it can even be argued that the majority of us are not actively missing some of the changes. [As an aside, Reclusiarchs and Priests in TDA were likely pulled due to having no model and this has been done quite a bit following the Chapterhouse lawsuit aftermath. Who knows? Perhaps we'll get a dataslate for them down the line like they did with Mycetic Spores, etc]

Hindsight, yes. As I said earlier, it feels like GW are doing this(a series of codizes from "similar" factions) for the first time, rather than for around 20 years. The last couple of editions, it were the Dark Angels who've been handed the short end of the stick, and now it's us. It's not the fact that this is ocurring to us that annoys me(well, at least not the major one ), but the fact that it's still ocurring at all. Seems like waiitng for the design change until you've completed a certain series of other codizes first(which of course are the big four of the Emprah) was too hard apparently. Just for the record, I never was fine with scouts being WS/BS 3! ;)

*snip*

SG have improved, but require careful use and are more dependent on buffs to function than DC. They can still work this edition but have a lot more of a niche than DC. As a general rule though, you can't go wrong taking more DC!

Yes, they do. I should get some games going, and maybe write a new tactica. Not sure if there's still need for it and whether I can find the time or not, but it would certainly be fun! DC are certainly the true winners of our codex, gonna give you that.

*snip*

Any themed list - which Deathwing players are today finding out - can only function with a suitable amount of support. We remain faster than the Dark Angels meaning it is still possible to kite them and outshoot there nasty Overwatch stuff. Additionally, Overwatch can be mitigated with mutlicharging or sending in something to eat the higher-strength shots. You can even use cover to your advantage as you can only Overwatch what you can see. I agree that we will find C:DA more of a challenge now but my point was that we aren't suddenly going to find anyone difficult just because they have a new book - which is the primary take home message I'm getting from many on this thread, hence the brain ache.

The thing is, we used to do very good themed lists. Fast, mobile and heavy on assault with supporting elements. We now have to take a step back and involve more supporting elements for the fewer assault units because of the way that 7th is layed out. I have no problems evolving my playstyle with the units that I like to play and field through tactics and load-outs, but adding more shooty units in my lists(which I'd have to buy, of course) is quite contrary to what I want.

I do have hope though, that at some point, GW is gonna throw it all over and re-introduce stuff like consolidating from one combat into the next.

Well, we'll not struggle more against the majority of other factions out there, just DA I reckon. Eldar and 'Crons are off the charts anyways, Tau I've found relatively easy to beat with the right tactics, and Orks are Orks. Nasty if played correctly.

Snorri

Snorri, when I first arrived on B&C I was looking to your guides for inspiration. You are part of the reason I (kind of) know what I'm talking about and they are one of the reasons why I run DC lists. I admire your generalship and certainly your painting logs, so it pains me to be at loggerheads with you over this

Wow, man...that one went straight to 'dem feels. That is the beauty of a forum like this, though. We can have a civil discussion like adults even though we like to spend our time getting glue and paint on our fingers just to get our little toy soldiers ready for the next battle against other little toy soldiers.

No need to be at loggerheads at all here, mate, just friendly disagreement in some points. I do admit I was a bit grumpy when I wrote my post, but I was hungry!

Snorri

[Bukimimaru]

Brothers, let's not do this.

Sanguinius would not quarrel with the other Primarchs about what one chapter lacks and another gains.

 

We can all agree the the Blood Angels codex is unfairly marked by like-for-like units lacking a discount or special rules that other marines get.

We can all agree that one month ago our Codex was perfectly usable and the other chapters getting some buffs does not instantly make our codex terrible.

 

We all want the same thing here, let's not quarrel over personal opinion, after all no ones personal opinion has ever been changed in a forum spat. :)

 

Now to the topic at hand; I intend to make full use of the Space Marine codex formations using my Blood Angel models, and (most likely) the White Skar chapter tactics in lieu of the Red Thirst.

There was an exceptional topic not so long ago looking at the viable synchronicities with the two codexes, taking Blood Angels as the core force and taking Space Marine formations as an allied detachment. It gave me a terrific confidence boost and if you are feeling let down by the recent changes (as I was) but willing to consider taking Space Marine allie (as I am) you should certainly check it out.

[Charlo]

Ravenwing formation became my new avenue for Bikes and Speeders.

Black Knights are some damn awesome models and rules as is the Darkshroud and thier flyers. Can't wait to see them in Red

[Vel'Cona]

Granted, it's kind of sad that we have to "counts-as" to make BA work.  That said, I think we've all had to ride this train at one point or another, and I for one am happy to see the DA get their day.  They have gone nearly four editions with crappy codices, to be completely fair.  The BA have never in my experience had a bad codex, though we did have a dry spell during 4th edition and some of 5th.

[Charlo]

Eh, it's less "Making them work" and more I've always liked the RW, but thier rules have been a little iffy and including them in a force was a little harder, plus I didn't want to use an ancient codex.

 

With the update and their detatchment it free's up my BA fast attack slots for Meltacide, while keeping the Red Thirst. They also have a nice speed, firepower and survivability that complements our own - plus land speeders rock. Also thier flyers are ace now and I have an excuse to buy some.

 

Angels of Death Codex at it's finest :)

[GrunTeufel]

Good thing my older brother has a 7000+ points of DA sitting in his closet in our LGS. I'll be trying the new codex with some BA allies and vise versa.

 

I am really angry about the whole thing though. I mean if you look at our supplements which you might not be able to because GW had the brilliant idea of making them limited editions, they tried this whole demi company and formation detachment stuff with us. It failed specteculary and they made it better in later releases. I hate being the guinea pig. 

[knife&fork]

  I hate being the guinea pig. 

 

Hey now, guinea pigs are awesome! 

 

I'm surprised to see people go with white scars as allies, why not leave the assaulty stuff to the sons of Baal (or Cretacia) and use C:SM in the boring shooty role? 

 

Personally going with either Ultras or Imp fists for the free re-rolls. DA will likely do bikers very well unless there's a huge mandatory tax to the detachment.

[Bartali]

And certainly we don't perform as good against Dark Angels as before, just to get back to your statement. BS2 overwatch is going to put a serious dent in our assault based lists, especially because this edition doesn't favour assault in any case. And yes, I do believe that indeed is because someone else got new toys.

I wouldn't worry too much about BS 2 overwatch, if anything it's the stacked bonuses from ravenwing units and formation detachments that's going to hurt.

But that's not a new thing for BA. Essentially we have two things missing from our codex that are needed to succeed in 7th ed.

Spammable, high quality shooting that ignores cover.

Ways to deal effectively with super heavies and GMCs.

That's really the only things you 'need' to cover with other sources if you play BA.

I guess it shows how fractured 40K is now with the avalanche of rules that GW has released that the things I need are different to yours.

I play Maelstrom in a non super heavy/gmc environment. I first and foremost need multiple mobile, durable scoring units, and if they have high volume S6+ shooting, so much the better. BA do the first, but not the second.

[Charlo]

 

  I hate being the guinea pig. 

 

Hey now, guinea pigs are awesome! 

 

I'm surprised to see people go with white scars as allies, why not leave the assaulty stuff to the sons of Baal (or Cretacia) and use C:SM in the boring shooty role? 

 

Personally going with either Ultras or Imp fists for the free re-rolls. DA will likely do bikers very well unless there's a huge mandatory tax to the detachment.

 

 

One HQ, two fast attack. But at first look it seems the HQ needs to be Sammael, but no one is sure. Either way, It's good!

[Urauloth]

DA fliers are good now? ...huh. Those are some sweet looking models, for sure. Can't say I'd be mad at GW for finding a way to sell me one.

 

Codex: Blood Angels starts to feels a little like Codex: Death Company sometimes, looking at the strengths of the book compared to others and the counters it offers, but at the same time the more I compare it to C:SM the more I really appreciate our assault squads. Double melta is huge, and being able to back it up with a pistol version on the sergeant is a neat trick too. The free drop pod is also fantastic, and while that's what I'm doing with mine, as a couple of people pointed out in reply to my Skyhammer question, the free rhino shouldn't be overlooked either.

 

On the subject of the Skyhammer and ways to counter it (thanks for the feedback everyone) while trying to use heavy cover and regular deep strike reserves has occured to me, rhinos absolutely hadn't - the thought never crossed my mind for a second. That's partly because I don't have any, I think, but also because I have a tendancy to write them off (weak armour, too easy to kill, first blood VP, etc) which is a flaw in my analysis because it leads me to overlook potentially useful units and options. You're definitely right It that it'd be pretty unglamourous having to blow all those pinning grav cannon shots popping transports.

[Charlo]

Also you could use ravenwing allies, and make them all come on turn two as a counter force...

 

Sorry, the new DA book is really cool!

[Remtek]

You could perhaps have a cheap ravenwing IC tanking for Death company, not very fluffy but i guess that could work. 2+ 3++ re-rollable jink. I'm really curious to see how many of the IC's can be taken as Ravenwing, perhaps buying a bike automatically gives them the rule?

 

Edit: This would actually make DC pass dangerous terrain tests as well, since skilled rider confers to the unit and says that all models in the unit pass dangerous terrain.

[Charlo]

That's ridiculous. And awesome.