Ranwulf Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Any of you ever feel like some Primarchs ought to be somewhat friends to another one? Or at least show some degree of respect? Do you think some of the friendships make no sense whatsoever? For me, Lorgar and Guilliman actually could have become close or even friends (in a mirror to some of their sons), although they had somewhat distinct personalities, both were introspective leaders (one dedicated to warcraft and another to philosophy), that had a distate for bloodshed, and desired to build a future and wonder for mankind. It's actually even pointed out in Betrayer, when Lorgar sees the pain in Guilliman being equal to his, of a builder that had his great constructions destroyed. Maybe that was the tragedy of Monarchia, it created a rift between two primarchs that might be friends. Maybe they were in fact too different to actually work, but Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus created a bond based on respect of each others abilities, as much different they were from each other. Ran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 My favorite primarch was by all considered the red stepchild of the litter. Usually if someone agreed with him is because they needed him. Ironic for he was probably the most powerful of them all and he had to rein his power in dealing with his other brothers. On one hand there was a genuine friendship between Magnus and Lorgar, but even that soured quickly due to Lorgar's doing. Overall Magnus had no friends among primarchs. Temporary allies maybe, but genuine friends... long standing friends... not. But then how can you be a friend with one who needs but clap his hands and you are turned from the inside out, primarch or not. No wise and sane person would court friendhsip with one who can read minds, cavorts with the occult and knows far far far.... have I said far.... more than he shows. Friendship with Magnus would be a gamble. No primarch is that stupid to gamble with an all powerful sorcerer, so no friendship for Magnus the Red. They might be brothers but primarchs are not stupid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Dorn, Sanguinius, and Horus Dorn and Russ Fulgrim and Ferrus Horus and Sanguinius Dorn and Guilliman Fulgrim and Horus Perturabo and Angron Lorgar and Magnus Vulkan was friendly with just about everyone Fulgrim and Kurze (a brief friendship) The Khan and Magnus Alpharius and Horus Primarchs without many friends Alpharius Lorgar Angron Kurze Perturabo The Lion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Im not sure anyone actually considered Guilliman a friend. He had his dauntless few, but were they his friends? Im not sure. Guilliman is interesting because he is the only primarch to have actually had a family. Hell, even during the HH he had a "Mother". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 My favorite primarch was by all considered the red stepchild of the litter. Usually if someone agreed with him is because they needed him. Ironic for he was probably the most powerful of them all and he had to rein his power in dealing with his other brothers. On one hand there was a genuine friendship between Magnus and Lorgar, but even that soured quickly due to Lorgar's doing. Overall Magnus had no friends among primarchs. Temporary allies maybe, but genuine friends... long standing friends... not. But then how can you be a friend with one who needs but clap his hands and you are turned from the inside out, primarch or not. No wise and sane person would court friendhsip with one who can read minds, cavorts with the occult and knows far far far.... have I said far.... more than he shows. Friendship with Magnus would be a gamble. No primarch is that stupid to gamble with an all powerful sorcerer, so no friendship for Magnus the Red. They might be brothers but primarchs are not stupid. You could have also touched on Magnus' overwhelming arrogance and misguided sense of control...but thats ok. ;) As you say Lorgar and Magnus had been friends, but few are the friendships that last forever. Angron and Perturabo got on well enough, for Angron anyway from what I recall, as both saw War for what it is, and dismissed the fancy trappings even the Astartes wrapped themselves in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Dorn and Guilliman were close in multiple sources Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Im not sure anyone actually considered Guilliman a friend. He had his dauntless few, but were they his friends? Im not sure. Guilliman is interesting because he is the only primarch to have actually had a family. Hell, even during the HH he had a "Mother". He didn't have many friends among the Primarchs, but I'm sure he had some. Fulgrim and Manus were very very close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Dorn and Guilliman were close in multiple sources Are they? I know Dorn was one of his Dauntless few but i didnt know they were close. But its good if they were Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Their legions are battle brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Dorn and Guilliman were close in multiple sources Are they? I know Dorn was one of his Dauntless few but i didnt know they were close. But its good if they were In Know No Fear he actually talks about how his brothers don't generally like him and he does say some that he counts as actual friends, and I'm pretty sure Dorn is one of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Ah ok good to know. I dont remember that from KNF (and i have read it 5 times!) but ill take your word for it :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 You could have also touched on Magnus' overwhelming arrogance and misguided sense of control...but thats ok. Part of his drammatis persona, the sorcerer, I thought it self evident. Have you ever read about a sorcerer (no not a wizard, a sorcerer) that is not arrogant and a controlling freak? I have not, this is the very reason why I love sorcerers so much. They are arrogant, controlling, self-centered, egomaniacs. Magnus was not the exception but the paragon of a sorcerer. It did not won him many friends. The sad thing though is the following. When he needed a friend, when he needed someone into whom confide he was betrayed. Read Nikaea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Magnus only had one peer: The Emperor. He wS created with the sole purpose of sacrificing himself on the Golden Throne. He wasn't as knowledgable as the Emperor, but that's ok. His role was to die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Ah ok good to know. I dont remember that from KNF (and i have read it 5 times!) but ill take your word for it :) I don't have my copy here or I'd find it but I'm pretty certain. I've read it a few times to haha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 My favorite primarch was by all considered the red stepchild of the litter. Usually if someone agreed with him is because they needed him. Ironic for he was probably the most powerful of them all and he had to rein his power in dealing with his other brothers. On one hand there was a genuine friendship between Magnus and Lorgar, but even that soured quickly due to Lorgar's doing. Overall Magnus had no friends among primarchs. Temporary allies maybe, but genuine friends... long standing friends... not. But then how can you be a friend with one who needs but clap his hands and you are turned from the inside out, primarch or not. No wise and sane person would court friendhsip with one who can read minds, cavorts with the occult and knows far far far.... have I said far.... more than he shows. Friendship with Magnus would be a gamble. No primarch is that stupid to gamble with an all powerful sorcerer, so no friendship for Magnus the Red. They might be brothers but primarchs are not stupid. It's mentioned upstream, but lost in data; however, Magnus's friend Primarch was the Khagan. It was Jaghati who immediately sought out Prospero when rumour of the extermination reached him - and it was to Jaghati that the shade of Magnus revealed all. I think you need to read Brotherhood of the Storm then Scars.... He sat back in his oversized chair. The light around them played with the gentle movement of candles. The strains of a Prosperine silverharp sounded faintly in the background. The Khan was very fond of music – an enjoyment he and Magnus shared, so they said. Magnus, he brooded, staring into the flames. My good friend. He remembered their initial encounter on Ullanor, meeting on the Triumph Plain with the last blood of the slain greenskins still stinking in the air. ‘Greetings, brother,’ Magnus had said, grinning across his strange ruddy face, striding down from his lander with his rouged and cartouched cabal in tow. ‘You were actually fighting here, they say.’ The Khan bowed. ‘In the system. Horus took the core world.’ Magnus clapped his big hand on the Khan’s shoulder. ‘Of course he did. How are you? You look leaner than you were, if such a thing were possible.’ The Khan gave an equivocal shrug. Magnus was a little taller than him, a little broader, with his florid scarlet mane and decked out in flamboyant ornamentation. He looked like one of the Qo Golden Emperors the Khan had killed. Qin Xa looked at her, disappointed. ‘No,’ he said. ‘Have you not been listening? We cannot go to Terra.’ He rested a hand on her arm. ‘The Khan has only ever trusted one of his brothers. If Magnus lives then all this can be salvaged – if he is dead, then the Imperium is finished for us. We are going to Prospero, szu. The answers are there.’ ‘Magnus, mainly. Sanguinius as well. They were the three. Magnus was figurehead, most powerful, but he was not only voice. Sanguinius was always subtle. In some ways, I think he is closest to the aether. On this, though, the Khan always argued same way. He drew up most of rules for Librarius, even though his name was never in datacores.’ The Khan held his ground, speechless, still gripping his blade. He could feel his hearts pumping, his body flooding with combat readiness. None of that was necessary. When the figure spoke, the voice dispelled any trace of doubt. ‘Jaghatai,’ said Magnus, his tired voice echoing strangely. ‘My friend. How good to see you again.’ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Dorn, Sanguinius, and Horus Dorn and Russ Fulgrim and Ferrus Horus and Sanguinius Dorn and Guilliman Fulgrim and Horus Perturabo and Angron Lorgar and Magnus Vulkan was friendly with just about everyone Fulgrim and Kurze (a brief friendship) The Khan and Magnus Alpharius and Horus Primarchs without many friends Alpharius Lorgar Angron Kurze Perturabo The Lion Corax doesn't even make your list. According to the background Corax and Guiliman are close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Ah ok good to know. I dont remember that from KNF (and i have read it 5 times!) but ill take your word for it I don't have my copy here or I'd find it but I'm pretty certain. I've read it a few times to haha. Its hard to read it only once! And no need to look it up, i believe a fellow ultramarine Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Ah ok good to know. I dont remember that from KNF (and i have read it 5 times!) but ill take your word for it I don't have my copy here or I'd find it but I'm pretty certain. I've read it a few times to haha. The line is 'Fewer still like him: as friends, he counts only Dorn, Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus.' The section is rather lovely as a text of comparisons: He is handsome, in a plain way. He is handsome the way a regent on an old coin is handsome, like a good sword is handsome. He is not handsome like a ritual weapon, the way Fulgrim is. He is not angelic, like Sanguinius. Not heartbreakingly angelic. None of them are that beautiful. There is a dutiful line to his jaw, like his good brother Dorn. They share a nobility. There is the great strength of Ferrus and the vitality of Mortarion. There is, sometimes, the rogue glint of the Khan in his eyes, or the solemnity of the Lion. In the architecture of his nose and brow there is, many claim, the energy and triumph of Horus Lupercal. There is none of the bitterness that shadows Corax, or the persecuted despair that haunts poor Konrad. There is never any of the deliberate mystery that obscures Alpharius or Magnus, and he is more open than that buried soul Vulkan. He is accomplished, very accomplished, even by the standards of the primarchs. He knows that the breadth of his accomplishments troubles his more single-minded brothers like Lorgar and Perturabo. He never displays the pitch of fury found in Angron, nor do his eyes ever ignite with the psychotic gleam of Russ. He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses. Few of them really trust him, because, he feels, they always wonder what he’s going to get from any compact or cooperation. Fewer still like him: as friends, he counts only Dorn, Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus. (my emphasis) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Operative Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Part of his drammatis persona, the sorcerer, I thought it self evident. Have you ever read about a sorcerer (no not a wizard, a sorcerer) that is not arrogant and a controlling freak? I have not, this is the very reason why I love sorcerers so much. They are arrogant, controlling, self-centered, egomaniacs. Magnus was not the exception but the paragon of a sorcerer. It did not won him many friends. The sad thing though is the following. When he needed a friend, when he needed someone into whom confide he was betrayed. Read Nikaea. I'm surprised he wasn't close to Perturabo. Its mentioned in Angel Exterminatus that Perturabo thinks he and Magnus will be friends due to their shared love of history. Magnus personifies Study and Perturabo personifies Creativity (even if he is surpressed by seige warfare) so I don't see why their friendship never came to be. Magnus may be manipulative and cold at times but its easy to imagine that not working with Perturabo, such to the extent that they actually form a meaningful bond of friendship. Their personalities complement as well: Perturabo is practical whilst Magnus is a dreamer, Perturabo would be his grounding influence. Furthermore about the point with no one wanting to be around a powerful sorceror, Perturabo is shown in Angel Exterminatus to be especially resilient (shown by Fulgrim's gift plot) and would likely not be bothered by Magnus' psychic powers (I'm not sure about his stance on psykers). For other readers who may think that the two are too diametrically opposed to be friends think again: Shared strong sense of justice (Magnus embracing his death, Perturabo destroying his homeworld) Magnus has his libraries, Perturabo has his workshop Both interested in History Shared hate of relaxation Neither like to talk too much so wouldn't get on eachothers nerves Both cultured Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Yes that's it, Thanks! I like that bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I have read Scars and BoS and I liked it a lot. True the Khan could be considered a friend to Magnus, just it did not pass my scrutiny as a "best pal" kind of friendship. Tue there was respect, there was also a shared appreciation of the warp-gifted, yet it all appeared to me as a courteous, distant relationship. I would be the first to admit that Magnus would be simply Magnus if the relationship would appear at a later day as very one-sided. I would not question nor rein if Magnus would play his hand and abuse his friendship with the Khan for his own personal gains, or to play one of his many schemes. I am the first to say that if one trusts Magnus, is a fool. I like my favorite primarch because of this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Until each and every one of the Primarchs are covered in complete depth and some light shed on things that are kept deliberately obscured it could be tricky making a comprehensive list. But some: Perturabo and Magnus - the former is convinced they will share friendship due to their similar personalities regarding creation/inspiration/knowledge which given Perturabo's upbringing is a big thing Magnus it appears, for all his faults and flaws, not to mention the general suspicion his Legion operated under, had some fairly firm friendships with a lot of his brothers. Lorgar,Perturabo,Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Jaghati Khan, Horus. Not an insignificant selection there. Sanguinius seems to have good relations with pretty much everyone barring (by his own admission) Lorgar and Alpharius. Can't read too much into the latter since I find it very unlikely Alpharius formed lasting bonds with any of his brothers - Horus, supposedly the closest of all to him voiced grave doubts about how far he could be trusted. Lorgar, I'm surprised at, I would have thought if anything it would be the other way round given the religious connotations involved, at least when they first met. Angron, Mortarion and Curze are very much on the periphery of the brotherhood circle - Angron dislikes everyone, Curze slowly driving himself insane through his visions of the future and Mortarion too damaged from his upbringing to really fit in although Horus considers him one of his close brothers. Horus himself, it's like he's the favourite. Only Primarch who doesn't really like him is Corax and that's down to him screwing over his Legion. The Lion? I'd say there's plenty of scope for animosity there given that Horus is the best but the Lion is the first. Maybe it will be looked at when the Dark Angels get the Dan Abnett treatment (if that's still happening) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 "The psychotic gleam of Russ" I really look forward to when FW covers the Wolves, because even if that came from Abnett, FW rarely misses a chance to latch onto a good hook. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Angron, Mortarion and Curze are very much on the periphery of the brotherhood circle - Angron dislikes everyone, Curze slowly driving himself insane through his visions of the future and Mortarion too damaged from his upbringing to really fit in although Horus considers him one of his close brothers. Speaking of Curze, he did at one time consider Fulgrim to be a pretty close friend - that is until Fulgrim betrayed his trust and conferred his worries about Curze to Dorn. It is a safe bet that there is no love lost between Dorn and Curze after this incident, however, seeing as Curze almost killed him. Dorn was definitely disappointed in the attack, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I Angron, Mortarion and Curze are very much on the periphery of the brotherhood circle - Angron dislikes everyone, Curze slowly driving himself insane through his visions of the future and Mortarion too damaged from his upbringing to really fit in although Horus considers him one of his close brothers. Speaking of Curze, he did at one time consider Fulgrim to be a pretty close friend - that is until Fulgrim betrayed his trust and conferred his worries about Curze to Dorn. It is a safe bet that there is no love lost between Dorn and Curze after this incident, however, seeing as Curze almost killed him. Dorn was definitely disappointed in the attack, though. I think their "friendship" such as it was would have been founded on Fulgrim praising Konrad for the ideal of "peace" he'd imposed on Nostramo - "Even Fulgrim admired it, a model of compliance" - Prince of Crows. because that would have given Curze the one thing he craved beyond anything in the rest of the universe: vindication, that he was right to act as he did because it produced wonderful results. Not matter if he had started deluding himself even at this early point he would still have cherished it. On the other hand I can't see Fulgrim sticking to their friendship even before he betrayed his confidence to Dorn; Fulgrim spent most of the Great Crusade chasing perfection. A brother whose Legion is populated with the scum of humanity, who spend more of their time torturing and murdering for their own amusement instead of the wider needs of the Crusade, and a brother whose sanity was unravelling faster every year? Long way from perfect there. Much like how he distanced himself from Lorgar - the only son to fail the Emperor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309265-primarchs-and-friendships/#findComment-4085997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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