Primarchs and friendships

[N1SB]

Fulgrim and Ferrus's friendship was the one that totally surprised me.

 

And despite that surprise, or perhaps because of it, it was also the one I found most believable.

 

On the surface, the Phoenix & the Gorgon were very different.  The more obvious friendship would have been Perturabo and Ferrus; both were more technology-oriented, both came from Hellenistic-themed worlds, both named their legions after iron.

 

Below the surface, I realised Fulgrim and Ferrus really shared a very similar fundamental philosophy.  So much so, their bromance demonstrated to me Ferrus was not not defined by technology or his followers' penchant for bionics.

 

Most of the 30k novels gave me a deeper understanding of the lore I knew, and it was great.  With Fulgrim and Ferrus, though, it actually changed my mind, making me re-assess what I thought I knew, and my new understanding makes more sense than my previous one, which is why they really stuck out for me.

[Petitioner's City]

I have read Scars and BoS and I liked it a lot. True the Khan could be considered a friend to Magnus, just it did not pass my scrutiny as a "best pal" kind of friendship. Tue there was respect, there was also a shared appreciation of the warp-gifted, yet it all appeared to me as a courteous, distant relationship.  

 

I would be the first to admit that Magnus would be simply Magnus if the relationship would appear at a later day as very one-sided. I would not question nor rein if Magnus would play his hand and abuse his friendship with the Khan for his own personal gains, or to play one of his many schemes. 

 

I am the first to say that if one trusts Magnus, is a fool. I like my favorite primarch because of this. 

 

I don't think of pre-fall Magnus as a manipulator like this. Certainly not from the perspective granted to us in A Thousand Sons, where Magnus's naivety towards his brothers is shown to a very large extent. And I do not think anyone can doubt from Scars that, for Jaghati, his only friends among his brothers for him were Magnus and, to a lesser extent, Horus. Arguably out of Horus and Magnus, it is Horus who is the manipulator sans equal - a situation revealed by comparing how both primarchs were introduced in Horus Rising and A Thousand Sons, respectively (Horus using the Mournival to manipulate councils; Magnus being naive even with the tribespeople and not using his Sons to manipulate the wolves). 

 

Again, the quotation I included above, as well as the wider sections they come from, suggest how much both Magnus and Jaghati valued one another, were honest with one another, even loved one another. There is no sense of Magnus playing with Jaghati - until the Warp shade. If there had been such a side to their relationship, Jaghati would have been at Nicea. And you have to remember how much Jaghati's impulse is to seek Magnus, to hope he is alive, and more. As he says, ‘I came to find a friend. Whatever else had happened, I thought, I could come to you for counsel’ And later, ‘"You were my friend," said the Khan, quietly.'

 

But I'd say out of all the primarchs the most isolated were Alpharius and the Khagan, since Jaghati only found solace in Magnus and Horus, and to a much lesser extent, Sanguinius. And Alpharius-Omegon is, of course, way outwith the brotherhood of Primarchs.

 

Also regarding Peturabo - how many other primarchs knew how sensitive and visionistic he was? Roboute considered him a dulled weapon with no vision outside war...how many others? Maybe P was just as isolated as Jaghati, in his own way?

[Hyaenidae]

Perturabo and Angron are really the only Primarchs that can stand each other's presence, in my opinion.

 

Perturabo is utterly divorced from mortal sensibilities and rationality, and Angron is utterly divorced from mortal concern and morality. 

 

Two peas in an inhuman pod. Thus why I think they were getting along like a pair of old men over a game of chess in Aurelian.

 

In general, they hate everybody. I just think they hate each other the least.

[1000 Sons]

Magnus' superiority issues made him feel like a big brother to the other primarchs.  His talks with Lorgar definitely have the big brother giving the little brother advice feel.  Even during Nikea he looks to the primarchs against him as fools.  Magnus felt that his best friend was probably the emperor because of all the time they spent in the great ocean, but when the Emperor turned his back on Magnus at Nikea  this was the start of Magnus realizing that he was as much a fool as the rest of his brothers.

 

There is one part on Thosand Sons book where Magnus is upset talking about Russ and he says some thing like "Do you know what he is?" about Russ, I always took that to mean that Russ was also a psyker, they could have been another set of opposites attract primarchs like Ferus and Fulgrim.

 

I still hope we get a Mortarion focused book soon, I think there is a lot more about him that could use fleshing out, have him working with another primarch like Alpharious. 

[Petitioner's City]

^ Totes agree. I would really like Chris Wright's take on Mortarion after Scars and 'Daemonology'. Ok, I must admit I am very biased in favour of Scars and BoS (although I don't like Wright's 40K Wolves fiction so much, it's much less analytic or interesting regarding world building)

[Olis]

Perturabo Angron is utterly divorced from mortal sensibilities and rationality, and Angron Perturabo is utterly divorced from mortal concern and morality. 

 

To me, this makes a little more sense. ^_^

[Aqui]

I just checked the Betrayal rule book. According to the Matrix, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are "Distrusted Allies". Can anyone tell me why? I always imagined Russ and the Angel to be cordial at the least, even if they got on each others nerves. I didn't expect both Legions to be distrustful of each other

[Scribe]

I think that fits better for me as well, as Angron has a very real moral sense about Freedom.

[lokkorex]

I'm still quite peeved Black Library hasn't made a great crusade era book showing a joint operation between the fourth and twelfth, with their primarchs.

 

Then again, depending on the author, that could be a really bad idea...

 

Anybody else reacted to mortarions outburst against fulgrim in vengeful spirit? When fulgrim mentions how he got to daemon prince status and perturabos part in it?

Is it possible Mortarion cared for Perturabo more than some of his other brothers, or is this just a reflection of Mortarion still thinking the civil war can be resolved without any more of his brothers being dead?

[Olis]

I think that fits better for me as well, as Angron has a very real moral sense about Freedom.

 

Off-topic as it is - can you elaborate on that for me?

[Petitioner's City]

I just checked the Betrayal rule book. According to the Matrix, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are "Distrusted Allies". Can anyone tell me why? I always imagined Russ and the Angel to be cordial at the least, even if they got on each others nerves. I didn't expect both Legions to be distrustful of each other

Malificarium perhaps? Sangunius was one of the key proponents of the Librarius...as Malcador says:

"The Librarius – the Khan, Magnus and Sanguinius were behind it. That was the root of their connection, such as it was. They all believed in the need for psykers within the Legions"

Also as Yesugei says in Scars:

Magnus, mainly. Sanguinius as well. They were the three. Magnus was figurehead, most powerful, but he was not only voice. Sanguinius was always subtle. In some ways, I think he is closest to the aether. On this, though, the Khan always argued same way. He drew up most of rules for Librarius, even though his name was never in datacores

[Aqui]

I just checked the Betrayal rule book. According to the Matrix, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are "Distrusted Allies". Can anyone tell me why? I always imagined Russ and the Angel to be cordial at the least, even if they got on each others nerves. I didn't expect both Legions to be distrustful of each other

Malificarium perhaps? Sangunius was one of the key proponents of the Librarius...as Malcador says:

"The Librarius – the Khan, Magnus and Sanguinius were behind it. That was the root of their connection, such as it was. They all believed in the need for psykers within the Legions"

Also as Yesugei says in Scars:

Magnus, mainly. Sanguinius as well. They were the three. Magnus was figurehead, most powerful, but he was not only voice. Sanguinius was always subtle. In some ways, I think he is closest to the aether. On this, though, the Khan always argued same way. He drew up most of rules for Librarius, even though his name was never in datacores

I had forgotten that they were both on opposite sides of the Psyker argument. Still, they must have really been vehement in their beliefs for said beliefs to force such a wedge between them.

[Marshal Rohr]

Corax doesn't make the list because he doesn't have any real friends. I don't think he and Guilliman were close, so much as they had more contact than Corax did with others. Corax actually did more damage to his legion being in charge than not. They were considered cowardly by other Primarchs and Corax had the insufferable anti-dictator bent.

[Scribe]

 

I think that fits better for me as well, as Angron has a very real moral sense about Freedom.

 

Off-topic as it is - can you elaborate on that for me?

 

 

Angron's roots as a Slave have 100% coloured his view on the universe. ADB wrote the tiny piece Lord of the Red Sands where Angron is fighting through his son's on Istvaan, while he contemplates what is worth fighting for, and in the end, its only Freedom. Not honour, not glory, but Freedom that Angron fights for.

 

Its a fantastic little nod to old old fluff. 

 

EDIT: It should go without saying that he sees the Big E as the biggest Tyrant of all time, and Angron see's the Nails (in a very twisted sense) as giving the only Freedom a warrior can find, being Nails Lost. Thats his gift to his Sons, sons who would be slaves to war for eternity, to find freedom only in being lost to all thought and conscious behavior.

 

Actually makes me think of some pessimist philosophy I was reading recently...but there you have it. :]

[Petitioner's City]

I just checked the Betrayal rule book. According to the Matrix, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are "Distrusted Allies". Can anyone tell me why? I always imagined Russ and the Angel to be cordial at the least, even if they got on each others nerves. I didn't expect both Legions to be distrustful of each other

Malificarium perhaps? Sangunius was one of the key proponents of the Librarius...as Malcador says:

"The Librarius – the Khan, Magnus and Sanguinius were behind it. That was the root of their connection, such as it was. They all believed in the need for psykers within the Legions"

Also as Yesugei says in Scars:

Magnus, mainly. Sanguinius as well. They were the three. Magnus was figurehead, most powerful, but he was not only voice. Sanguinius was always subtle. In some ways, I think he is closest to the aether. On this, though, the Khan always argued same way. He drew up most of rules for Librarius, even though his name was never in datacores

I had forgotten that they were both on opposite sides of the Psyker argument. Still, they must have really been vehement in their beliefs for said beliefs to force such a wedge between them.

I think it's more of what Yesugei says, there is something of the 'aether' about Sanguinius - he is 'subtl[y]' close to the Warp. Perhaps Russ reacts to this. Perhaps also it is the Red Thirst in the Angels that drives the wedge, which is also close to malificarium to the wolves? Perhaps the Renaissance-men of the Blood Angels cannot trust the fetishistic V? Very few do.

Also the matrix might not reflect the Primarchs per se; it can also reflect the Astartes and their own prejudices separate from their Genesires.

I think that fits better for me as well, as Angron has a very real moral sense about Freedom.

Off-topic as it is - can you elaborate on that for me?

Angron's roots as a Slave have 100% coloured his view on the universe. ADB wrote the tiny piece Lord of the Red Sands where Angron is fighting through his son's on Istvaan, while he contemplates what is worth fighting for, and in the end, its only Freedom. Not honour, not glory, but Freedom that Angron fights for.

Its a fantastic little nod to old old fluff.

EDIT: It should go without saying that he sees the Big E as the biggest Tyrant of all time, and Angron see's the Nails (in a very twisted sense) as giving the only Freedom a warrior can find, being Nails Lost. Thats his gift to his Sons, sons who would be slaves to war for eternity, to find freedom only in being lost to all thought and conscious behavior.

Actually makes me think of some pessimist philosophy I was reading recently...but there you have it. :]

I like how in Scars Jaghati is like ‘Horus is corrupted, the Emperor is a tyrant.’ Magnus says ‘True enough.’ And the Khagan replies ‘Then I choose neither.’ It's true, we all know it; the Emperor is no hero, not by 21st century standards. He's a monster: anti-democratic, xenophobic, fascistic. He's the ubermenschen hero coming out of the fire of total collapse. He's bred armies that were, for a time, totally loyal and which he betrayed; then he made more, better or not.

Yet, is he the hero?

[Aqui]

It's a pity in any case, as I'd liked to have make a small army with both Legions to add to the XIII. Still, it won't stop me having a few models when the time comes

[Scribe]

 

 

I like how in Scars Jaghati is like ‘Horus is corrupted, the Emperor is a tyrant.’ Magnus says ‘True enough.’ And the Khagan replies ‘Then I choose neither.’ It's true, we all know it; the Emperor is no hero, not by 21st century standards. He's a monster: anti-democratic, xenophobic, fascistic. He's the ubermenschen hero coming out of the fire of total collapse. He's bred armies that were, for a time, totally loyal and which he betrayed; then he made more, better or not. 

 

Yet, is he the hero?

 

 

Hah, depends on who you ask. My colours are plainly clear. The Emperor was no hero. You cannot build on a foundation of lies, on forced ignorance. The Great Crusade is not about unity among humanity, is about complete and total control, slavery to the whims of one being who isnt even human!

 

Would be a great debate topic, but no, the Emperor is not a hero.

[Ion]

Magnus only had one peer: The Emperor. He wS created with the sole purpose of sacrificing himself on the Golden Throne. He wasn't as knowledgable as the Emperor, but that's ok. His role was to die.

 

This was not how I interpreted the vision, I believe Magnus was to be in control of the Throne, not die on it.

[Scribe]

No, not die, just live forever, bound to it, kinda like the Big E.

[Balthamal]

One of the more common theories that get some traction regarding that whole thing are the Emperor's plans for both the Golden Throne and humanity in general. I doubt very much he'd have bound Magnus into the throne to serve as the overseer of the Astranomicon and get eaten alive by the psychic energy required - say what you want about the Big E, we know he's ruthless, cold and driven beyond any mortal man but would he casually disregard one of his, if not the, greatest creation? I swear people tend to forget that The Emperor was already mortally wounded when he was put onto the Throne, never mind the fact that it was badly damaged by Magnus appearing on Terra in the first place.

 

Which brings us back to the purpose of the Throne. It was supposed to be a gate into the Webway, bypassing completely the need for Warp travel and all the dangers associated. 

 

As for his plans, you'd have to assume that He was determined to screw over the Warp by elevating humanity to the peak of it's psychic potential. The Eldar fully realised their potential as a psychic race, and then they got sloppy and the wheels fell off spectacularly. Whether it was possible to "win" that way or not we'll never really know. The Emperor isn't a hero in the classical definition (or likely any definition) of the word but you do have to have some admiration for the utterly ruthless and pragmatic way He went about trying to "win" even if He was completely wrong in his convictions, at least the strength of them is admirable. And the willingness to set in motion of the kind of galactic atrocity never seen before on His own species to try and achieve some positive outcome takes balls the size of Terra.

 

Anyway enough of thread derailing, back to the topic at hand.

 

I'm very interested to see a scene where Russ gets along well with someone. A lot of time is devoted to those he's had disagreements with - Magnus, The Lion, Angron - but it would be good to see some proper camaraderie, the closest we've come so far is the brief scene at Nikea between Russ, Fulgrim and Sanguinius. Russ and Dorn are on Terra at the same time but nothing has been shown of them till now. Even the Legion you'd think the VI have the most in common with - The Scars - show disdain at any comparisons  

[Remus Ventanus.]

Well, at least we are all friends, right? :)

[Scribe]

Once you bend your knee to the true Gods...

[Remus Ventanus.]

Once you bend your knee to the true Gods...

I still believe in the old Imperial truth..No Gods around these parts!

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

It's weird that Ferrus is described as being pretty close with two other Primarchs (Fulgrim & Guilliman) when he doesn't really seem to have any redeeming personality traits. I've said before that it might have something to do his ideological approach to life - he espouses efficiency, which both Robute & Fulgrim do - with the former valuing tactical & logistical efficiency, whilst the latter strives towards individual efficiency of form - perfection as a warrior.

 

I also find it interesting that in Fulgrim, Ferrus sometimes exhibits a mirth that's never really been shown in other sources, which might indicate that he places so much value in acting as an example to his sons & other forces of the Imperium, that there are very few individuals that ever see Ferrus with his guard down.

 

I kinda wonder whether Ferrus was closer with the Traitor Primarchs in general than he was with those who would remian Loyal - his extremely martial outlook an obsession with war certainly seems to fly closer to the Traitors' attitudes, and the assumption by Horus that he'd side with them probably rested on more than his closeness to Fulgrim. Then again, it might just have been that during his activities as commander of other Primarchs & Legions, he happened to work more closely with the Traitors - who knows.

 

One of my favorite depictions of Ferrus is in The First Heretic - a book in which he's mentioned only on a couple of pages - where Lorgar tries to make smalltalk with the Gorgon:

  "Knowing the spiteful thought was petty, Lorgar had sought to temper it. 'One wonders if you are capable of making anything that creates, rather than destroys.' He tried to smile, hoping it would rob the accusation of any venom as he stood uncomfortably in the heat blaring form the open furnace.

   Ferrus had cast a glance over his dark-skinned shoulder and watched his fey brother for a moment, not returning the smile. 'One wonders if you are capable of creating anything worthwhile at all.' "

 

Badassery aside, Lorgar's view is entirely appropriate - Ferrus is utterly dedicated to war, and views his role (and that of his Legion) in the Emperor's design as purely military - I doubt he much cares what their fate would be once the conquest of the Great Crusade was complete. Thus why he's so dismissive of Fulgrim's admiration for artistry and culture, of the decorative features of Vulkan's work - he thinks matters unrelated to warfare are inappropriate for the Primarchs, which is why he probably wouldn't have liked the more philosophically minded of his brothers much - Lorgar & Magnus for example.

[Scribe]

Yeah, I think its a shame we didnt get more pre-Heresy views. I dont see why he would not get along with Perturabo, even perhaps Angron when you consider those 2 had something resembling a relationship.