Prot Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 This is the number one reason.... Well maybe number 2: Others complain about him, but I love him as a model. I usually field him just as my Captain to protect the Grav-Cents, but not anymore. I expect to field him in Strike Force Ultra since I have the entire contents, and I just have to assemble / paint the other terminators. The big question is with the changes, is it even worth it? Captain Base cost as I use him: (Points are estimated) Hammer / Shield Eternal (Auspex?) 190 pts ~ Terminator Squad 1: 5 Termies + Cyclone Launcher = (Maybe add Chainfist) = 205 pts~ notes: one extra Missile shot on landing is a good thing... Terminator Squad 2: 5 Termies + Assault Cannon = 195 (Re-rolling 1's for 3 turns on Assault Cannon isn't too bad.) Terminator Assault Squad 1: 5 Terminators 4 Hammer/Shield + Claws = 220 pts Terminator Assault Squad 2: 5 Terminators 3 Hammer/Shield + 2 claws = 210 pts Stormraven: Twin Assault + Twin MM + Locator Beacon + Hurricanes = 240 pts (Hurricanes not mandatory, but buffed with Tigurius?) Landraider: Crusader (for Librarius Conclave and Assault Termies) w/ MM and XA = 270 pts -OR- Redeemer w/ MM and XA = 260 pts BASE COST: 1530 pts~ Keep in mind this is squad minimums and a 'light' HQ: - This can easily be tweaked to 1500 as your entire army. - @ 1850 what would you add? Notes: 1. Fear and Fearless is 'okay', but not amazing. 2. Rolling for reserves in turn 1 is 'okay' but I wonder if I take a Conclave with Tiggy, can he re-roll reserves for them? I don't know about this. 3. This basically is an alpha strike army, so what would benefit it? Perhaps the scout formation? Perhaps the Librarius Conclave? What are your thoughts on this formation? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I've also been casting glances at the strike force since the new release, it's got some nice rules that should make it quite effective. Not sure if it works but how about trying to fit a minimum skyhammer in there? You'd have to minimize both formations but you'd get one hell of an alpha strike. Would you run both assault squads with hammers or one with hammer and one with claws? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4090018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Thanks Eric... I don't know, it's a tight fit. I have it at about 1520 base so that leaves me less than... 350 to play with (if I REALLY tighten up the SFU) The minimum Skyhammer.... unfortunately I only have 1 Stormraven. 2 Stormravens ad 2 Stormtalons.... wow. That's putting a LOT in reserves. I think the minimum for that is about 450` points? What would compliment SFU best, and sit about 350 points? I keep looking over the other formations, and I can't even get in more termies, unless I simply go back to the SFU, and just simply beef up each squad, but in the case of the shooty squads (I think they benefit most), I would want to get them to 10 men. That way I could combat squad them, and take 2 Heavy shooty weapons, and when combat squaded, they'd have proper target priority. A cheap combo that might work here is the Whirlwind + Speeder. You'd have your long range junk killer with shred/no cover/ re-roll to hits and unlimited range! Another? I keep going back to it but a pure Lib-Con in the Landraider could be very good for simply empowering the Termies. That's about 350 right there (with Tiggy who I would have give the Crusader Rending) (Actually in a pure claw termie squad, if they had rend not much could stand them with shred/rend, and an extra attack on the charge... I kinda like that idea!) Scouts would be good for homers.... the 3 scout pack, and if I could fit... one of those anti Deep Strike Speeders. Those are my top picks right now. I have some test games coming up so any further advice would be great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4090765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (with Tiggy who I would have give the Crusader Rending) (Actually in a pure claw termie squad, if they had rend not much could stand them with shred/rend, and an extra attack on the charge... I kinda like that idea!) Storm of Fire only applies to ranged weapons in the Shooting phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4090785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Thanks for clearing that up.... too bad. That would make claws have a lot more mileage! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4090879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I just checked the rules for Fury of the Storm. Seems that a Terminator squad benefits right? Well an independent character joining a unit counts as part of the unit sooooo.... Calgar with 2 Orbital Strikes? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4091285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Hmmm... I don't know. It's weird how it's written. I do know the formation rules are very clear on this. Models outside of a formation can not benefit from its rules. So if you an IC to a squad, it can only use rules it already had: IE an IC with termie armour could Deepstrike with Formation Termies. But IC's not in the formation don't get its rules, unless specifically stated otherwise. So the Formation calls for a captain in Terminator armour. So he is part of the formation, and gets the bonus, however this is why it's probably a Captain and not a CM. Calgar would be joining from outside the formation. Now the weird thing here is they've done the same thing with the Gladius as they did the Necron Decurion. If you read the lead up to the Gladius on the page it is outlined (sorry don't have the page number or exact wording), you will see that the Gladius is not a normal formation. The Gladius rules state that you cannot add any formation from outside of the listed core and Auxiliary units listed. (IE: You can't add Skyhammer to a Gladius). BUT the Gladius also says that unlike other formations it shares it's special rules throughout the Gladius and they area all considered the Gladius formation which always counts as your Primary formation. Unfortunately the way I read it is the whole formation(s) can use ObSec and the 'bonus' Chapter Tactics, I don't think it works the other way where the Auxiliary bonuses can be shared to someone like Marneus. Anyone else what to have a go at this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4091613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That's the confusing part mind. An IC joining a unit counts as part of said unit. So it seems like it would be part of the whole shebang. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4091633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 GSF is a Detachment, not a Formation. Formations retain their bonuses in an Unbound army, the GSF won't. The Formations in a GSF don't all have Objective Secured. That's a special rule of the Battle Demi-Company. As you say, the Command Benefits of the GSF (Combat Doctrines, free transports for Demi-Companies if you have two of them) apply to the Formations within it, but that's the only exception. A 1st Company Task Force doesn't gain the rules of the Demi-Company or vice versa. Chapter Master is an upgrade for a Captain. I don't see any rules basis for disallowing it in the Formations that say "Captain". It doesn't become a different Datasheet when you buy the upgrade, any more than a Librarian does if you buy a Level 2 upgrade. Special rules don't propagate between independent characters and units they join unless specifically stated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4091636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The Captain still isn't a Terminator squad though, so even if upgraded to the Chapter Master, he wouldn't get the bonus shot unless he counts as part of the unit having joined it. And on that basis, wouldn't a IC from outside the Formation also? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4091643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Right, I just meant I don't see any reason you couldn't upgrade him if you wanted to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4091645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Right, I just meant I don't see any reason you couldn't upgrade him if you wanted to. Ah right. Agreed. Any model in a formation can be upgraded with their options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4092098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gornall Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 So does that mean you can upgrade to a CM and get an Assault 2 Orbital Barrage? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4092625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I believe so. Well not assault. Just relentless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4092640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 GSF is a Detachment, not a Formation. Formations retain their bonuses in an Unbound army, the GSF won't. The Formations in a GSF don't all have Objective Secured. That's a special rule of the Battle Demi-Company. As you say, the Command Benefits of the GSF (Combat Doctrines, free transports for Demi-Companies if you have two of them) apply to the Formations within it, but that's the only exception. A 1st Company Task Force doesn't gain the rules of the Demi-Company or vice versa. Chapter Master is an upgrade for a Captain. I don't see any rules basis for disallowing it in the Formations that say "Captain". It doesn't become a different Datasheet when you buy the upgrade, any more than a Librarian does if you buy a Level 2 upgrade. Special rules don't propagate between independent characters and units they join unless specifically stated. Re reading the GSF I find this confusing.... For clarity: "Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a GSF are an exception. They counts as part of both their Formation and the Detachment and have all the associated Command benefits and special rules. If your Warlord is part of a Formation or an Army List Entry that makes up part of a GSF, that entire GSF is your Primary Detachment." See to me GSF has no special rules just command benefits (Literally). What you cite is sharing vehicles is a result off forming a Battle Company, not a GSF . A GSF and a Battle Co are not the same (although they are comprised of multiple Demi-Companies.) So I actually thought only the battle co got the vehicles for free. Specifically the Demi-Co's. I guess it could be that only the Demi-Co is ObSec, but I still don't see the free vehicles passing down beyond the battle co's. Just... kind of confusing as I read it literally: "If a GSF include 2 battle companies, (snip), then together they forma Battle Company. Any unit from the battle company.... may take a transport." So literally does this not refer to double Demi-Co's and not the Auxiliary? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4093803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Re read the unique rules of the Gladius which states it does share special rules. It also states this is unique compared to other detachments, but it does in fact share special rules. It doesn't. Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Gladius Strike Force are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. i.e. a Tactical Squad from a Demi-Company counts as being in the Battle Demi-Company and in the Gladius Strike Force, so they get the special rules associated with those Detachments: Objective Secured/Tactical Flexibility from the Demi-Company, and Codex Astartes/Company Support from the GSF. Nowhere does it say that they also count as being part of a 1st Company Task Force, or a Suppression Force, or a Librarius Conclave, just because those things are also in the Detachment. They don't get those rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4093814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 Well we agree on that part. I'm still not sold on the Auxiliary getting free transports. It's not that I don't want to believe it, I'm just reluctant to use an advantage that might not exist. The same with Calgar.... you guys really think you can go with 2 Orbitals on him deep striking in? (That's the key, if I recall if he comes out of the landraider he can't do it.) BTW: Post Game: I had my game with this. I played it unbound, as a formation. In 1850 it felt a little clunky. I had a good win, but it was very close... tons of carnage. I have to admit although it was very fun, having zero ObSec kinda blowed. We play a LOT of Maelstrom etc, and even the local tournaments are usually some aspect of Maelstrom so ObSec is kind of big. This was hard to take. But at 1850 I had 30 termies (it turns out while writing out the list I totally forgot about the Dreadnought!!) Like I said it was super fun, but hard. A real grind. The extra shots were on combat squaded Termies squads. So with 20 Tactical Termies, I went with 4 squads of 5, and the Cyclones went together in a 5 man squad and the Assault cannons went together in a 5 man. That worked really well. Stormbolter squads... are stormbolter squads. The Landraider almost got blown on turn 1. That flying Nid with the muclids? Missiles? Haywire is so gross... treats AV14 like it would a Grot in a garbage cant... 2 glances. I was worried. Without ObSec I was continually forced to annihilate stuff or lose the point. I thought I'd lose for sure because were playing the one where you only get a card if you have a point. It was very tight, a lot of death. I had trouble with his psykers, and they mowed down (Spirit Leech?) my Hammer/shield squad with ease... ouch. But my Captain with Burning blade ripped through Mawloc's (those Mawlocs could have been disgusting but he deviated on both over 5"), and his HQ. He had multiple Flyrants, so I'd hope for a ground test fail, and then clock him when he fell... Best turn: Turn 5. I had won, but I wanted a shot at his full health Warlord Flyrant. One squad fired Cyclones, I got a lucky 6 hit, he failed the jink, grounded.... right in front of my Captain (pictured in post 1). Him, and his closest buddies with hammers and claws went in and everyone had BBQ Flyrant wings for supper! Woot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4093824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Prot, thanks for the report very insightful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4099193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Thank you. I find this formation addictive. It is very rigid, and the lack of ObSec is horrible. But this is the only way I can really see playing a strong force of Termies without just taking 1st Co x 2. (the extra shots are fun) I'm dying to try the double Orbital strike... lol This codex pushes us hard into CAD or Gladius/Demi-Co but for pure fun I'm loving this formation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4099338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Okay revisiting this as it's become my favorite 'fun' formation.... I wanted to try a CM with double Orbital strikes, but as I read everything I could surrounding this idea, it became apparent I can't legally do this! Under Orbial strike I think it says 'One use per game' only. Still trying to mix this with scouts and Tiggy for some ObSec and homing devices, OR back to LibCon Or just maximizing Termie armour! (I really wish I didn't need to include the Dread) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4102419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yeah, doesn't seem like we can do it. Not a Captain any more :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4102804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gainsay Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I guess its a go big or go home kind of list so more termies or some other elite death Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4102898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 Well I've tried the extra termie thing. It's good... it's fun. Combat squading into multi-Cyclone wielding 5 man units and getting an extra shot is cool..... But I'm looking at trying to get more out of the list. Here's something incredibly obvious that I never thought of til last night. I can simply add Calgar. Keep the USF Captain cheap and since Calgar is part of one of the command Formations, I can simply add that command formation to my USF and take whatever I need from it. (most notably Calgar). This feels cool.... but is it smart? Probably not. LibCon is a great addition. I've proven that to myself, but what else....? I keep coming back to the 10th Co formation. The ability to get some hard to kill, 'concealed' Snipers with 'cheaper' Teleport Homer's feels like a good force multiplier. What do you guys think? Take a basic USF and add in the 10th Co. 10th Co Formation: Approx: 243 pts: 2 x 5 man Snipers w/Cloaks. Srg's w/ Teleport Homer 1 x 5 man double armed scouts w/ Land Speeder storm (vanilla with Hvy Bltr, Cerebus Launcher). The idea would be, the snipers obviously exercise their first turn of 'free' Precision Fire.... Concealed hopefully in the edge of ruins allowing Terminators to Reinforce. ALSO if there is an emergency Evac from the Stormraven, hopefully I can use those TP homers. The Landspeeder Storm is dual role. Since it is open topped I can pistol, or assault out of it, and the 'scattering field' is my main attraction. I believe the dual sniper squad will create a honey pot. The Landspeeder Storm will dissuade deep strikers since they risk double scatter. Thoughts? Bad idea? Good idea? * Alternatively I could simply do CAD: Telion + 2 Scouts. Save points, forgo the 10th co bonus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4103886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Yeah, saving points is the way to do it. Take just a CAD of Telion and snipers. Regarding Calgar - can we take the Command Formation alone outside a Gladius? It doesn't have a dataslate and the rules seem to indicate that? However, if you're going with a CAD, just take Calgar anyway. :) I think he adds to the army spectacularly. He enables you to have a solid character who will be unbeatable surrounded by Assault Terminators. *** Here's a Combination you might like. Sternguard from the 1st Company Formation. Put 3 units in Drop Pods and give yourself 1st strike capability but also you can break enemy units with your Strike Force Ultra more easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4105032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Ah that's right....the command might be stuck in the Gladius only. But you're right, if I take the mini CAD, I -could- take Calgar but wow... pricey. My alternative for getting my Termies in action is 1st Co with 3 squads or even 2 + Sternguard, BUT with the special rules (Fear/Fearless + the formation Bonus) I would have lots of points left, and this still allows me to take a Landraider if I wish. Well, lots to think about. I have a 'base' cost sheet on the SFU and at a 'common' load out on the 4 termie squads and a beefy Termie Capt (Burning Blade/Shield Eternal/Auspex) and the LR Redeemer and Stormraven: I have a base of 1575 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309452-why-i-want-to-field-strike-force-ultra/#findComment-4105248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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