Ishagu Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Now that Tank Squadrons are a thing, and options that aren't even avaliable to the Legions exist (eg: Vindicator squadron), it appears that from a competitive gaming standpoint the 30k Legions can't compare. I look at the way the current 40k Marines can dominated psychic and shooting, and have no restrictions on mixing an Alpha Strike elements with heavy support choices.... Cheaper units, better weapons, better rules - all these things have added up. Will FW address this? The Legions were supposed to be the greatest force in the Universe. For the record I'm not saying they should be better on the tabletop, but they shouldn't be worse! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monstra Sumus Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 30k is a vastly different battlefield to 40k though. It's designed primarily as a Marine on Marine combat system, it's only people wanting to shake it up who play against 40k armies. It's set up to be cinematic and climactic, less skirmish and more pitched battle. Also, emphasis on were the greatest force in the galaxy, until they shot themselves to bits. 30k Marines aren't worse than their 40k equivalent, they're just different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4090987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Well, they're more expensive, less effective in shooting, susceptible to fear... Even the 40k Terminators are now superior (Cheaper, can deepstrike) Now that the vehicle advantage is gone... Even Calgar (although he's not as tough) can punch just as hard as most Primarchs! Don't get me wrong, I love 30k. It's just disappointing that as a game it's falling behind the super fast updates of GW... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4090992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
apologist Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's just disappointing that as a game it's falling behind the super fast updates of GW.. Only if you combine the Age of Darkness rules with the standard game rules. It's a bit like having one side taking a Cities of Death or Planetstrike army and the other taking a force from Apocalypse. They're just not designed to work together this way. Besides, if you're playing competitively, why not just combine the rules with Unbound? That lets you take squadrons of things. Will FW address this? I very much doubt it – I would think they regard it as a non-issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 But this has always been the case, no? 40K Marines always had ATSKNF, Deep Striking Terminators and Special / Heavy Weapons in regular tac squads, Combat Squadding, Drop Pods for most, new Land Raider variants, Centurions, Grav, etc. 30K Marines don't have the above except with Special Units, specific Legion rules or specific ROWs. Though they had things like Primarchs, Volkites, Phosphor, Rad, Cataphractii 4++, Basilisks / Medusas, Jetbikes, etc. It wasn't a case of better or worse, it was just a different time with different stuff. Apples and oranges. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 10 bucks says your cheaper terminators would still die in a turn or two to 10 volkite Culverins :P It's a whole differently balanced game man, I wouldn't compare the two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
paz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 10 bucks says your cheaper terminators would still die in a turn or two to 10 volkite Culverins It's a whole differently balanced game man, I wouldn't compare the two. How 'choom' of you brother Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Its not falling behind at all, as 30K is a different game than 40K. Different units, points, rules, FOC, army building rules. Its really not the same game, despite folks wishing it to be so or house ruling it to make it run that way. Just because we can use 30K lists in 40K games, doesnt mean they where intended for balance in fact its the very opposite. FW will not address this at all, as there is nothing to address. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
v6v77 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 @Ishagu Im going to come to your defence here man. I agree. How many of us play soley vs 30k. I dont. Im the only 30k player in 15 miles that i know of. 40k vs 30k is to me just one codex (SM) vs another (HH). We kinda need a little boost to dreadnoughts to bring thwm in line with new marine dreads, lower costs and that about covers us. We are all about more bodies and more armour. Less specialised units and more world crushing armies. If you want to play a hand picked elite force with loads of special and heavy weapons, thats SM. The generalists. (And the HH veterans being the same as vanilla tac supports this) If you want to play an army of space marines, with specialised units that are focused on a task. Thats the legion. So individually SM should be better. As a unit and an army HH should be better. Honestly until we see any stat changes or formation rules we wont know how far behind the curve we are. All we would need is a points drop of maybe 10 to 15% across the board. Or maybe remove our unit tax. Then we would be a strong list that could hold their own. I understand they are different systems written by two very seperate (though linked) companies and they should be different. Just think different doesnt need to mean it cant be.... Not competitive that the wrong word, but solid. Edit: I am going to the FW open day in july and may try to bring this up to as many people at FW as possible. One of them may even give me a good answer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 We have choom Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 10 bucks says your cheaper terminators would still die in a turn or two to 10 volkite Culverins ...or a few stabs in the back... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I feel like they are two different games and not truly meant to be played against each other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 FW should not address this. 30k isn't meant to be a 'more powerful' version of 40k, it is an entirely different era. I'd rather avoid an arms race with 40k and maintain the unique nature of 30k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 This thread provides nothing constructive to the Adeptus Domus, the Age of Darkness, or the B&C; and has far too much potential for vitriol and poor civil discourse between brethren. The HH rules have always been a sub-set game, and has never tried to be competitive across the 40k rule spectrum. Though FW put a real effort into achieving a level of balance to the Horus Heresy 'in-house' sub-rules, it's obvious in their presentation that the HH system is designed for narrative play over competitiveness. FW has zero interest in "keeping up with the Jones's", per say, and will not attempt to stay on a competitive play-level with Games Workshop. Simply put, the two game systems have diverged further apart. Soon, they will be unplayable together. This is good, because now we have a true choice between two familiar, yet different, games. Rejoice. =][= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/309495-40k-vanilla-marines-are-now-hands-down-better/#findComment-4091163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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