A couple of GK questions

[Bartali]

From this thread

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305800-do-you-feel-the-limitations-of-the-grey-knights/?p=4092310

 

My point was that 40k is a game of brinksmanship. I chose to play GK as my core army because it challenges me to play better. My choices matter. I don't play to massacre, I play the mission. A Knight army struggles to win the mission, and every non-Errant they take is a Knight I can ignore for at least another turn. Flyers are ignorable. Weak units are primary targets. Hard units can be out played. Skyhammer is a pickle.

SJ

 

 

I don't like Stormravens. They're expensive, don't score in a low model count army, and have limited turns shooting.

However the people I play against use flyers/fmc's. Double Flyrants, Stormwolves and Ork flyers. Do people tend to just put more boots on the ground and play to missions ?

 

Secondly, do people attempt to make deep strike more reliable with NSF ? ADL and comms relay ? Inquisitor with Servo Skulls ? Or again is it worth just using the points to put more boots on the ground ?

[jeffersonian000]

When I said "Flyers are ignorable", I was pointing out that they aren't all that great against a mobile army. You can move so that Flyers have to either fly over you or ground, either way you win. One Flyer is a target, a great big, expensive target. Two are awkward for the player to deal with, making it easier to avoid their impact on the game. More than two? It's a parking lot of big models shuffling around for space, which makes tying them up even easier.

 

Flying Monstrous Creatures are a slightly different story. If they are shooters, you can only avoid them via LoS blocking terrain. However, you can ground them.

 

As to your other points, not sure what those have to do with my post you are quoting. I build my list to take advantage of Jumping, Shunting, Deep Striking, and Gate. I take only Sanctic, as GK played the way I play them really benefit for more Sanctic. I rarely ally, other than to take one Knight Errant at above 1500 points.

 

SJ

[Bartali]

Sorry - my second question was unrelated to your post.

 

It's a Separate question, thought I'd get two for one in my post ! 

[Zhukov]

Same Bartali as in the Bartali I spoke to some times on 3++?

 

To the first question: Yes, with Grey Knights I tend to ignore fliers/FMC's in the sense that I don't try to take anti-air into my lists. My current list simply does not care much about them, which I how I indirectly handle it. Rhinos offer a degree of protection as they have to kill the Rhino first before they can start killing my PA GK's, while my 10 man big unit of Terminators doesn't care much, they will lose a couple of models I guess. Leaves Dreadknights, which technicly would fear the Telepathy Primaris, except that you can easily Deny the Witch those, due to a decent amount of powerdice combined with being a psyker and having Aegis.

 

Tl;dr: The opportunity cost of taking anti-air as GK's is too high in my opinion.

 

To the second question: Making it more reliable means paying more to try and solve something which already has a big opportunity cost (not taking a CAD), which is a no-no for me. The fact that one would like to pay points to make it better is in this case for me confirmation that I should stay away from NSF all together.

[Emicus]

I’m feeling pretty disillusioned with the Stormraven myself, but it’s likely down to Operator Inexperience. I find moving it cumbersome, and it’s either an expensive transport or a complete hit-or-miss gunboat.

Though I must admit it won me a game recently in the league “tournament” the FLGS is running.

What’s most annoying for me, is the “space cost” in the army bag. I use public transport more often than not, and I’d rather have another 50 bajillion models or a smaller bag than a flyer (very subjective opinion).

For deepstrike assist/manipulation, after having tried using it, I feel naked when not running it.
Whole hog aegis w/comms and 3x servo skull Inquisitor.

​

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you're having trouble with enemy Flyers, take Allies. It's a weak spot for GK that Ravens are only partially a fix for. Check out the new Marines, their Stalker squadron is pretty amazing at AA duties. The FW Derodeo Dread is another option, and it also can engage ground targes too (although it is more expensive as a result). 

[Bartali]

Same Bartali as in the Bartali I spoke to some times on 3++?

 

To the first question: Yes, with Grey Knights I tend to ignore fliers/FMC's in the sense that I don't try to take anti-air into my lists. My current list simply does not care much about them, which I how I indirectly handle it. Rhinos offer a degree of protection as they have to kill the Rhino first before they can start killing my PA GK's, while my 10 man big unit of Terminators doesn't care much, they will lose a couple of models I guess. Leaves Dreadknights, which technicly would fear the Telepathy Primaris, except that you can easily Deny the Witch those, due to a decent amount of powerdice combined with being a psyker and having Aegis.

 

Tl;dr: The opportunity cost of taking anti-air as GK's is too high in my opinion.

 

To the second question: Making it more reliable means paying more to try and solve something which already has a big opportunity cost (not taking a CAD), which is a no-no for me. The fact that one would like to pay points to make it better is in this case for me confirmation that I should stay away from NSF all together.

 

I remember your informative posts from 3++, so it could well be me

 

Thanks folks for all the replies. A lot of what you're saying reinforces my experience of using a Stormraven with BA, and I'll try messing around with some lists without one

[Zhukov]

I remember your informative posts from 3++, so it could well be me

Then it is you, my name was spelled differently there I believe, Zjoekov. Cool :)

[Prot]

The Stormraven is really a 'cool' unit. 

 

Half the time I take one, I love it. The other half.... ugh. 

 

The reality is I try to make everything work, even if it's too my detriment. So why the Stormraven? Well it is like a flying landraider... which is good. It does carry Purifiers which I love to field, however, I am experimenting right now with zero transports/vehicles or spamming them as much as I can (long story). 

 

So if I want Purifiers, but no transports, this is where I really consider it.

 

It doesn't seem like enough anymore. Flyrant lists are rampant among the local Nid players. Even Dakka jets, and of course Eldar... 

 

But then how do you handle the flyer otherwise? In other armies it's worth using an Aegis with Quad and interceptor is nice. If you can simply get a flyer to Jink you can remove a lot of its effectiveness, and I find MOST of the time, people want their flyers to live so badly they always jink....

 

With GK, the Aegis and Quad combo is rare I find. So I typically target the flyers (that can be targeted) with Psychic stuff.... I go for grounding tests, and once I get a single wound on a flying MC... I move on.... get the jink, get the grounding test, and ignore it after that.

 

If it falls to the ground.... guess who's eating Flyrant Legs on the BBQ tonight? Grey Knights!

 

Otherwise I also use the aggressive stance. I'm often in the opponent's zone it feels like for 90% of my games, so getting 'underneath' them is the best way to minimize them. Some of them I agree.... it's hard to ignore. Yet some you have to, or you find yourself spending ridiculous amounts of time wasting valuable resources on them!

 

Hopefully next codex they give the mighty Draigo some wings! Let him soar the skies, and stab flyers. ;)

[thade]

The Stormraven is really a 'cool' unit.

I haven't picked one up yet; I may not. If I do, I will only use it under the following self-imposed constraints:

 

1. I will NOT attach the wings; the turbines but not the wings. With the turbines and no wings it looks like a really cool G.I. Joe vehicle from the mid-80s. With the wings it looks like a metal albatross.
2. It will have only ONE occupant: a lone Eversor assassin. You KNOW his name.

[jeffersonian000]

I stopped fielding my one Stormraven, my local meta chews them up like candy. If we get a cheaper Flyer in the future, and by cheaper I mean not 175+ points for a 2HP "Interceptor", I'll look into adding them back.

 

Now, I'm actually a fan of the Stormtalon, because it's cheaper and does what we need in a Flyer. But we don't have our own Talon.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

It will have only ONE occupant: a lone Eversor assassin. You KNOW his name.

William Murderface? ;)

I stopped fielding my one Stormraven, my local meta chews them up like candy. If we get a cheaper Flyer in the future, and by cheaper I mean not 175+ points for a 2HP "Interceptor", I'll look into adding them back.

Now, I'm actually a fan of the Stormtalon, because it's cheaper and does what we need in a Flyer. But we don't have our own Talon.

 

Just take the Marine formation, the one with the Raven+2x Talons. Does what we want, and our Raven has no unique properties anymore over a vanilla one. 

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

 

I stopped fielding my one Stormraven, my local meta chews them up like candy. If we get a cheaper Flyer in the future, and by cheaper I mean not 175+ points for a 2HP "Interceptor", I'll look into adding them back.

 

Now, I'm actually a fan of the Stormtalon, because it's cheaper and does what we need in a Flyer. But we don't have our own Talon.

 

Just take the Marine formation, the one with the Raven+2x Talons. Does what we want, and our Raven has no unique properties anymore over a vanilla one.

You just echoed what I've been saying for over a year.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I guess I've seen the light ;)

 

It's pretty sad how none of our vehicles except Dreads are actually unique. They're pretty much a copy-paste job from the Marine book. Especially galling when we had psybolts, psyflame, truesilver armour, mini-Gellar field...oh and Mastery 1 with 'Fortitude'. Apparently that, not Draigostar, was destroying the game. I expected Inquisition gone, but I never anticipated how much GW hate fun and variety. 

[thade]

It's pretty sad how none of our vehicles except Dreads are actually unique. They're pretty much a copy-paste job from the Marine book. Especially galling when we had psybolts, psyflame, truesilver armour, mini-Gellar field...

They flip and they flop. I bet they'll come back again in some way in a future edition.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I hope so. Maybe FW will do a campaign book for us. Vraks was...very underwhelming. As was IA2.  

[Bartali]

Had my first game with GK in a while. Generally very happy with GK, and they're fun to play.

 

Winning through most of the game until the last turn when the Space Wolf player took the lead to win the game, chiefly via a Stormwolf (fang?). Having 4 x S8/9 AP1/2 shots at late game versus GK was quite powerful (at 1500pts). Unlucky in some respects as I came out of assault at a bad time leaving me open to shooting, but still felt as though I didn't have an answer for the Stormwolf.

 

Which leaves me pondering AA options again. Still not impressed with the Stormraven as it's shooting is lacklustre for the points. There's the SM Anti-Air Defence Force, but that's kind of pricey at 225pts. Opinions ?