Azrael Jiraco Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Hello all I want to get back into 40k (as Dark Angels, naturally). I'm tentative, though. Last edition, the DA META was Termie spam with shields and cyclones. This time, however, Dark Angela appear to be unviable for an entire edition! Did we have a META this edition or are the DA literally a test codex for vanilla marines, now? I want to get the upcoming codex, but I won't if we are not expecting it to be rewarding for the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Get the new 7E Dark Angels codex when it comes out in 8 days, read it, and then ask again (if necessary). ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Going by the ways that the previous hardcover books got updated, I presume that the current archtypes will survive. For it would be DW + GW alpha strike and RW + GW + IK endurance builds. But then, I never play along with the Meta but play to counter it ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 This time SM were the testbed for DA.... Last time RW was our biggest strength. With new Codex I'm not expecting RW power level to go down, but the other to go up, so we can have a balanced choice. It's too soon to draw conclusions, however. Wait one month and see how the DA forum reacts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Jiraco Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 Thanks for the replies. My biggest curiosity is whether there even was s META this edition. I know there were situational gimmick lists, like dakka pole inside indestructible Raider, but nothing to go toe to toe with Chaos Flying Circus, Eldar Mech or Tau 30" wall. In other words, have we just spent an entire edition waiting for the next edition without a single competitively viable idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 It depends on what you call competitive. LikeI said, RW was competitive enough but no match for a souped up Eldar or Tau List unless you play Maelstrom of War missions, but then again, hardly any other army was. There was also an interesting build with Azrael and Drop pods. If you are expecting DA to be top tier, don't expect much. They never were and chances are they won't be this time around, but seems they will carry their weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Jiraco Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 It depends on what you call competitive. LikeI said, RW was competitive enough but no match for a souped up Eldar or Tau List unless you play Maelstrom of War missions, but then again, hardly any other army was. There was also an interesting build with Azrael and Drop pods. If you are expecting DA to be top tier, don't expect much. They never were and chances are they won't be this time around, but seems they will carry their weight. Thank you for your reply. I know we'll never be top tier. I just mean competative in high level play, like the last editions DW shield spam. It wasn't the best, but it could compete. I haven't heard of any high level Dark Angels player in big tournaments like before to receive inspiration from. You mentioned Ravenwing... What was the overall game plan this edition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastrouille Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Either dakka banner with loads of standard squadrons or black knights spam (i.e. 5 to 2x5 as a command squad, 1-3 fast attack slots of them), the latter being more effective with a SM ally (for the chapter master and grav-guns) but already quite efficient in itself although very dependant on having the first turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpokenMan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Dark Angels meta in 6th seemed to be how well they played with others. Azrael gave pretty good buffs to whatever unit you stuck him in and there were also those wonderful PFGs. They played really well with Guard in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I never had much trouble with my RW after the change to 4th, all through 5th, and now in 7th (I didn't get to play during 6th). They could handle massed AV14 or balanced lists, but struggled vs massed AV13 and Ork Hoards. I never quite figured out why AV14 was easy to deal with, but AV13 wasn't. Maybe it had to do with AV13 being so much cheaper than AV14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberame Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 For competitive play, my Raven wing force with tau allies for antiair was pretty brutal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Because funnily enough, non-FW AV14 does not deal enough damage and it is expensive to field. AV12 and AV13 xenos armour is far deadlier and cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I hate threads like this. For one META is relative to regions. Every one is different. If anything is true about the current competitive META in the United States it's that lists that are well rounded and played by someone who understands it front and back will win. Cheesestick Eldar spam lists are countered this way. My gut tells me that Dark Angels will be a very rewarding codex. It appears to have a lot of synergy with itself (more so than 6ed) and will use tactics that haven't been utilized (interromacy). Dark Angels will be easy to play but once mastered, extremely destructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Turok Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The only issue I see with the new codex is re-learning how to use deathwing efficiently. I always deep struck Belial and 2 squads of DWT into the enemy or objectives on turn 1. They created havoc that allowed my LRC with a squad of DWK and my ravenwing black knights to speed up and do some major damage or take objectives (along with 3 devastator squads for support. I built that force, learned everything about it, and loved it for the past two years. This new codex will be awesome but I really did love the last codex (and the art inside!!! the new codex books don't have unit specific art anymore which is sad). Greenwing just got better and can be ran similar to vanilla marines. Ravenwing are better too imho. Should be interesting to find the balance of this codex, even if it isn't super competitive (cheese ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I hate threads like this. For one META is relative to regions. Every one is different. If anything is true about the current competitive META in the United States it's that lists that are well rounded and played by someone who understands it front and back will win. Cheesestick Eldar spam lists are countered this way. My gut tells me that Dark Angels will be a very rewarding codex. It appears to have a lot of synergy with itself (more so than 6ed) and will use tactics that haven't been utilized (interromacy). Dark Angels will be easy to play but once mastered, extremely destructive. That is what I am looking forward to. An army that requires some brainpower to use. The new UM were a step in the right direction. That is hopefully another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I am pretty sure that new codex which soon will appear see minor boost to RW, Balancing weapons and points to DW and DW vehicles making them more viable and major boost to green wing units. But like SM codex I expect greatest strength will be formations and combo formations. Vehicle squadrons are pretty big thing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I'm praying for greenwing to be strong again. They were okay this last book, as long as you had the dakkapole and a prescience caster with a PFG babysat your lascannon devastators...but I really want a dark angels tactical squad to be a great choice again, without any outside help, like they were in 3rd edition. As for DW...they'll get boosts, but I hear that the PFG is going away...too bad, I abused the hell out of it, sneaking three crusaders into a 4++ bubble for the ultimate rhino rush of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM (17 melee terminators stepping out into your face on turn two, with tons of dakka from the crusaders) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amnesiadidit Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I am pretty sure that new codex which soon will appear see minor boost to RW, Balancing weapons and points to DW and DW vehicles making them more viable and major boost to green wing units. But like SM codex I expect greatest strength will be formations and combo formations. Vehicle squadrons are pretty big thing too. While I can see where to expect great strength in the formation, the concept also scares me. I for one like to make my list completely, not copy and paste presets, with that being said it would be a lie to say I dont want to use any formations cause I am learning how to incorperate them more and learning about their flexability. What scares me is DW builds are so point consuming that once you put one together, well thats all you have. My 6th ed list for 1850 is belial, 1x 10man termies, 2x 10man tac, 2x v.dreads, and 2x LRC. thats it, thats all i can fit into 1850 for my DW force. So when I see the DW formation I instantly think how can you add much more to that? Maybe I am just metally math challenged or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Jiraco Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 I hate threads like this. For one META is relative to regions. Every one is different. If anything is true about the current competitive META in the United States it's that lists that are well rounded and played by someone who understands it front and back will win. Cheesestick Eldar spam lists are countered this way. My gut tells me that Dark Angels will be a very rewarding codex. It appears to have a lot of synergy with itself (more so than 6ed) and will use tactics that haven't been utilized (interromacy). Dark Angels will be easy to play but once mastered, extremely destructive. You're entitled to your opinion, but if you hate these threads, perhaps you should avoid them. Besides, I believe you are misunderstanding it. Cheese lists are not necessarily META. In fact, most of them are not, even the Dakka Pole. They are gimmick lists that are super strong versus some lists and useless against others. The main tournament lists are all balanced. They need to have something for everything. The most successful balanced lists trend to a common theme or combination of core units. This is how the META is established. However, DA players have been absent from all the tournaments I've been to before my break. On another note, I picked up the White Dwarf this weekend. Formations are not familiar to me but seem to reward fluffy lists. I like this idea and hope they will be competitively stronger than messy lists that people can chuck together. Edit: I'm toying with the idea of having a fully mechanised Demi-company along with the Pred squad & LR formation. Will wait until I read the new codex, but I can't stop my mind from buzzing with excitement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 +++ Keep in mind that up if the discussion shifts to talking about army lists, that is accomplished in the army lists sub-forum. +++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 +++ Keep in mind that up if the discussion shifts to talking about army lists, that is accomplished in the army lists sub-forum. +++ One of the results of tactical discussions are lists. It is a way to make your point, presenting a practical example and shows your attempt at turning theory into practice. There is a difference between a thread discussing an army list and a thread that uses an army list to help with a discussion about tactics. The former belong in the Army List forum but I disagree that the latter one does as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Immersturm, While you are correct that practical examples are a key teaching tool, it is unwise to argue with the Mods publicly. That is an electric fense you don't want to piss on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I will reinforce Bryan's point of view since I suspect he was misunderstood. If the thread turns into an army list showcase it will get moved into army list subforum. Why? Becauseyou can have tactical discussions without posting a full army list. Instead of posting: 1x Chaplain on bike 2x 5 man RW squad, 2 mm 3x2 LS Typhoons 3x3 Land Raiders You can still achieve the same effect by simply typing for example: I will have the Chaplain as HQ because bla,bla,bla. Then 2 full Ravenwing squads for speed and resiliance, bolstered by Typhoons in the backfield shooting oportunity targets and the stars of the show will be the 9 Land Raiders being twin lascannon bunkers. That allows me to deal with anti tank, limited anti air and still has enough anti infantry firepower. So that you are giving a general army composition, giving details and tatics usage without actually posting a wall of text army list. What we want to avoid here is people posting lists willy nilly, without explaining reasoning and probably just fishing for feedback. By posting a general compostion of the army instead of a full army list not only you avoid the list fishing but you also have to add a purpose for what the units are actually doing, making tactic discussion more rich, better looking and more informative. I hope it was clear enough. I would also reinforce Valourous Heart's point by saying that a PM sometimes saves a lot of trouble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 @ Lucy - Point taken and agreed on ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sindiferous Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 The only issue I see with the new codex is re-learning how to use deathwing efficiently. I always deep struck Belial and 2 squads of DWT into the enemy or objectives on turn 1. They created havoc that allowed my LRC with a squad of DWK and my ravenwing black knights to speed up and do some major damage or take objectives (along with 3 devastator squads for support. I built that force, learned everything about it, and loved it for the past two years. This new codex will be awesome but I really did love the last codex (and the art inside!!! the new codex books don't have unit specific art anymore which is sad). Greenwing just got better and can be ran similar to vanilla marines. Ravenwing are better too imho. Should be interesting to find the balance of this codex, even if it isn't super competitive (cheese ) I'm right there with you Death_TuRk. I almost always face slapped the opponent on turn one and followed up with RW or GW securing objectives as needed. Also threw in an IK for support fire at times( no Devs in my collection yet). Now you can maybe get some grav and amp bits to upgrade your Devs and throw them into a drop pod with Azrael and Ezekiel (twist on the AZEK bomb) to launch them with the DW in round two to create some havoc. Or do what I am thinking, cruise your bikes up on turbo boost jinking all the way to get close in and use transponders instead of Belial. Throw that new terminator Libby in and a libby on a bike for Interomancy kicks. Who knows how things will go down. As for the DA META with 7th Ed. Codex. DA has been an underdog since I started just before 6th edition, but this codex looks like it makes some positive and not so positive tweaks that should give all three wings a better chance to balance out the Army for the new Formation based system GW is going to. Mind you that's only based on what I've read so far, but I have always liked an underdog and mine had some teeth just before 7th rules change and didn't slack off to bad afterward. All I have known is the 1st Legion is for Tacticians (a la The Lion) who can think on their feet and outwit their opponents with feints and precision. With new Interomancy and changes, I think I can add a bit of nasty to my DA Army (right after I figure out how not throwing terms first round works.....) Let the games begin! Never Forget! Never Forgive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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