Corswain Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I'm on a gen1 iPad and can't create spoiler tags for some reason, so final warning SPOILERS!!! Ok, got the ebook today. Not too bad but disappointing as the last of a trilogy. Too many open ends, too many unknown fates, too many unanswered questions. Talking points: - Astelan still alive (the astartes shot at the end of Master of Sanctity was not Astelan but this was not explained further. I guess there were two naked space marines running around?). Still causing mischief. - Sabrael still alive. - Telemenus becomes a dreadnaught. A bit disappointing but I think we all saw that coming. - Some Inner Circle revelations but nothing earth-shattering. - Cypher's identity NOT revealed - Some interesting politics among the Inner Circle - Tuchulcha!!! The book by itself is probably a 3 out of 5 for me. It's just not a satisfying conclusion. The action is good, the characters are good it just feels unfinished. It only cost me $13 (AUD) on the iTunes store though so pretty good value. If you want details or clarifications, ask away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Arkley Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 What was the big reveal at the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Two important lines: "I command you. Get us away. Get everyone safely away from the breach." "...It would be much easier if we had been merely witnesses." So, now we know who really snatched up the Fallen and spread them through time & space. Grim dark timey-wimey stuff. THIS actually answers how and where the Lion truly is. Now it makes sense the Dark Angels don't have a 10,000 year old Primarch lying in stasis. But they do now, and as it seems to have stemmed from both ends of the timestream, 30K to 40K... I have a new profound respect for Azrael. It was like making a wish with a genie from the Twilight Zone. Be careful what you ask for. It never turns out the way you'd expect. Methinks one could speculate the Guardians of the Covenant were involved in, or formed because of, securing the awesome Deus ex Machina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Cypher manipulated everyone in order to time travel back to the destruction of Caliban but that's where the books ends. No explanation of why. I believe Gav Thorpe is writing a DA heresy novel so maybe that will shed some light on why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Two important lines: "I command you. Get us away. Get everyone safely away from the breach." "...It would be much easier if we had been merely witnesses." So, now we know who really snatched up the Fallen and spread them through time & space. Grim dark timey-wimey stuff. THIS actually answers how and where the Lion truly is. Now it makes sense the Dark Angels don't have a 10,000 year old Primarch lying in stasis. But they do now, and as it seems to have stemmed from both ends of the timestream, 30K to 40K... I have a new profound respect for Azrael. It was like making a wish with a genie from the Twilight Zone. Be careful what you ask for. It never turns out the way you'd expect. This is one of the unexplained parts I meant. I mean it wasn't clear to me that the Fallen were brought through, just hinted. And we see Cypher fly INTO the warp breach. Why would he fly into it if he's just gonna get pulled out bu Tuchulcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Arkley Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 So the Lion is brought back in M40.999? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Doesn't seem like it. No large scale plot development, we just end up where we were to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Tulchulcha is the name of a chthonic daemon, not to be confused with the term demon. It is subterranean, in, under, or beneath the earth. It referred to Caliban as its home. Are the Ouroborus and the Tulchulcha connected? With the Dark Angels, everything is hints and secrets and lies... Tulchulcha could have grabbed the Fallen from Caliban, Chaos may have grabbed a few as the Fallen were drawn through the aethers of Time. This may be why they appear as randomly as they do throughout the millennia. As for the Lord Cypher... could he have denied the chance at reaching the Lion's side (perhaps because he may have failed to once before at the end)? Two Lord Cyphers on Caliban during the Heresy? Both motivated differently perhaps. Tulchulcha linked in the the past and the future... yeah, this can only get more complicated from here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Arkley Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 So how did Az feel being used by Cypher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 So the Lion is brought back in M40.999? Not necessarily. It's my subjective interpretation. With the timestream link, it is possible for this event to explain the Lion's disappearance from Caliban and into the heart of the Rock. The temporal effect makes the matter subjective... if the Lion was saved from the past and is now in the present all such ravings from Luthor raving about the Lion are from his warp-rattled brain. He was speaking truthfully, from his own warp-time point of view. Azrael felt about as good as the last seven Supreme Grandmasters did about dealing with Cypher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Arkley Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 So I suppose my last question is Cyoher really a bad guy or do you think he is doing it out of guilt of failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Too many paradoxes. Not enough explanations. There is only a few pages left after Cyphers treachery becomes obvious to him. Azrael seems resigned. Pragmatic Dark Angels attitude. It really does feel unfinished. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Thorpe will continue the story. If so, my opinion of the book would be higher. It's a good middle chapter, not a good ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 So I suppose my last question is Cyoher really a bad guy or do you think he is doing it out of guilt of failure?Up to your interpretation, which I thought was good. Still some mystery.He never denies being a traitor, he never claims to be loyal. Still has his own, unknown agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 So I suppose my last question is Cyoher really a bad guy or do you think he is doing it out of guilt of failure?Up to your interpretation, which I thought was good. Still some mystery.He never denies being a traitor, he never claims to be loyal. Still has his own, unknown agenda. It's Cypher. Compared to him the Imperial Assassins are well known individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 How is it that Lord Cypher can always meet with hidden masters without hassle? What are the Inner Circle politics? How big are the Inner Circle of Unforgiven? Is Astelan still alive at the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Inner Circle politics - kind of an expansion on Master of Sanctity but we have Asmodai and Sapphon wanting to abandon Tharsis while Sammael and Belial want to conclude the war there. We see some of Azraels thoughts on how much to divulge to who etc. he is also slightly concerned for his position, believing that Belial and Asmodai are looking of signs of weakness. There's a few manipulations of various members of the Inner Circle. I liked seeing the slightly paranoid side of them but was a little annoyed with Thorpes flippancy with the hierarchy. The implication that Azrael might be removed from his position was a bit strange. Astelan is alive to the end but actually takes very little part in the story. He's never seen in person, just used as a distant threat. Him being alive is one of the reasons I think there could be more in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Gav has written earlier in his blog earlier if he can, he would like to make more stories involving Nakir, of the Consecrators. Any revelation towards 30k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Not really, as mentioned above there's some implication that present Dark Angels are "responsible" for the fallen being scattered. I'm interested to see what Gav's new heresy novel might clear up about this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The ending line makes it quite clear that the 40k Dark Angels have been manipulated to extract the Fallen from Caliban's surface with the power of Tuchulcha. But... what about the loyalist Heresy-Era Dark Angels? Azrael said "Get everyone safely away from the breach", not "Scatter the bad guys over space and time and leave the good guys where they are". Some loyalist could have been scattered in 40k aswell, thus explaining some of the Fallen considering themselves as such. But I do not remember any of them claiming to have been fighting FOR the Lion during the Fall of Caliban. Also, this would imply that some of the "bad" guys remained in the 30k half of the rift, which would immediately start a second civil war... well, perhaps they were all killed in the final phase of the battle or retreated. It could make sense. Or perhaps, the loyalist were all scattered in the 30k part of the breach... But Azrael's request was not so specific, on the contrary, he was fooled just because of his non-specific request... therefore, the division would have happened only becase Tuchulcha willed it so, perhaps being a servant of the Dark Gods. On the other hand, the Fallen survived the battle of Caliban thanks to Tuchulcha's doing in the future, and in that future they play a major part in making the very event that saved them take place, in a circular timeline like "I-saved-my-past-self". I still do not understand the role of Typhus in this book, apart from him and the Fallen trio being tricked and used by Cypher to create a threat big enough for Azrael to listen to him. Perhaps Astelan was aware of the bigger picture, but I ignore what difference this would make, as well as I ignore the reason behind this most complex of Cypher's masterplans. Does this book finally classify him as an enemy to the Dark Angels and the Imperium? Or perhaps he meant to save the Lion and bring him to 40k, for the end times, where he would be needed most? Why did he excape towards 30k? To start all over again? I like to thing that the Hunt is the price the Dark Angels had to pay for the safety of the Imperium - a price that will grant them their Primarch in humanity's most desperate hour. The answers are still missing, and I do not really feel this as a true conclusion to the saga -apart from the shocking finale, we are at the starting point again, with nothing changed and more questions than answers. But I guess that's how it goes with the Dark Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Am I correct in assuming that cypher doesn't have a particular sword with him that would make all DA go bananas than they already do at the mention of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Am I correct in assuming that cypher doesn't have a particular sword with him that would make all DA go bananas than they already do at the mention of him? He has a sword that no one but its true possessor (which Cypher claims to be not) can unsheate. Asmodai tries, and gets punished by horribly realistic allucinations. But nothing more is revealed about said sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 My issue with the extraction of the fallen is that Ezekiel specifically states the unforgiven have been moved, the Terminus Est have been moved and the plagueheart has been moved. He and Azrael are alone, if the fallen were extracted, why wouldn't he say so? I would think that he would have a big "whoops! Shouldn't have don't that!" moment. Too loose, not clear enough. As for the sword, could be lion sword but the hallucinations showed a death but not the death of the lion we are familiar with. More shenanigans with changing fluff maybe. I've always had the very basic problem of scale with primarch heirlooms. If its the lion sword, shouldn't it be the size of if not bigger than cypher? How does Azrael wear a helmet made for a being much larger than him? Plot armor - that's how! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 How does Azrael wear a helmet made for a being much larger than him? Plot armor - that's how! http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk141/Mechxen/Smallville42ce1c7201b6c_zpsyvqrjtje.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hephaesteus Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hi guys, More spoilers I guess! Did anyone else notice the bit towards the beginning that says “the identity of the arch-heretics, Luther’s lieutenants such as Merir Astelan, Zahariel El’Zurias and the ringleader known only by the title of Lord Cypher.” I had presumed Zahariel was going to turn out to be the 40k Cypher, or at least not become one of the fallen, but it looks like he is being separately identified by the DA. Any thoughts? Cheers, H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward Assist Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 A very poorly written novel, in my humble opinion. As a whole, the novel felt rushed to me with the opportunity for what should have been epic battles - such as the invasion of the Rock - reduced to a few short non-consequential chapters. To be fair, this could be because if he took the time to develop the plot on the page - a plot to time travel to steal a legion of fallen to bring back to future and ally with Nurgle's finest gets thwarted by 40k DA destroying Caliban - it would have appeared even more awful. None of the major players showed the intelligence or experience of veteran commanders of the Chapter and much of their dialogue took the form of mindless cliched soundbites. Worse of all, Thorpe squandered an opportunity to flesh out Cypher and develop him as a character instead of a Saturday morning cartoon villain trope. He may as well have been Carmen San Diego. Other authors have really breathed new life and given interesting perspectives on classic 40k characters but that seems beyond Mr Thorpe. I hope he has nothing more to do with the legion's fluff, certainly in the Horus Heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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