Dark Angels Incoming: Denying the 1st Legion

[Prot]

So as it is starting to leak in heavy doses, we know a few things are true for Dark Angels. Let's keep conversation specific to the Dark Angels here, and see how Grey Knights come out.

 

What we know:

 

- 6 Formations, and the main detachment is the Lion's Blade.

Some of these formations are a play on the Space Marine formations with a twist, like the flyers (3), etc. Some of these now seem to replace Sammael and Belial's inherent abilities and form Deathwing and Ravenwing Formations.

 

The Lion's Blade mimics the Gladius in that free transports are allowable (rhino's/Pods/Razorbacks) to the formation. The Chapter trait of Overwatch at BS2 raises that to full BS.

 

- New (Rumoured) Psychic powers unique to Dark Angels appear quite potent:

Interromancy powers:

 

Primaris - Mind Worm - WC1 focussed witch fire, 12" S6 AP2 Assault 1, Ignores Cover, if model takes an unsaved wound then -3 BS/WS/I/Ld for rest of game

 

1 - Seed of Fear - WC1 Maledication affecting all enemy units within 9", they take Morale, Pinning, and Fear on 3d6

 

2 - Righteous Repugnance - WC1 Blessing 24" grants unit Rage

 

3 - Aversion - WC1 Malediction 24" unit may only fire Snap Shots

 

4 - Malestrom of Misery - WC2 witchfire 24" S1 AP2 Assault 1 Blast always wounds on 4+

 

5 - Trephination - WC2 18" focussed witchfire - affected model rolls 2d6+2-Ld and takes that many wounds with no armor or cover saves

 

6 - Mind Wipe - WC3 24" malediction - target unit is WS1/BS1 until end of their next turn, when they have to take a Ld test, if failed effect is permanent

 

- The Ravenwing is back which is in a formation/detachment, but has some new twists with guaranteeing arrival and re-roll jinks. (With a Shroud this might be back to a 2+ re-roll). Denying cover will be big on these guys.

 

- The Deathwing is back in a formation/detachment but the Knights seem better. Smite has changed, and the flail can go from AP 3 to a single "smash" attack basically. These guys definitely got better.

 

- There appears to be an auto-drop in starting on turn 2 allowable. Also deep strike deviation can be mitigated by landing within 12" of another unit. 

 

- The base terminator is looking to be about 7 meltabombs and comes with fearless and split fire.

 

 

Odds and Ends:

- The Power field generator is gone. (no more 4++ Landraiders)

- The banners... notably dakka banner and FnP banner are gone.

- Buffs to both flyers seem evident. I think the Dark Talon is going to have a Strength 10 AP2 blast.

- Greenwing has access to Grav weapons, but it seems there still isn't access to the other unique SM units like Centurions, Stormtalon, Stormraven, Ironclad, Sternguard, etc, etc.

- A big nerf did hit the Ravenwing Grenade Launcher as it appears to not give a -1 toughness penalty to the the targeted unit.

 

 

I think psychic defense is going to be huge. It's interesting to note that rumours so far aren't actually showing the Librarius Conclave (LibCon) in the codex. It's worth noting LibCon has been available to DA since the December Christmas Black Library Dataslate release, but how this interacts with the "Lion's Blade" or other formations is not fully understood and I'll have to update this when we know for sure.

 

The Interromancy is chalk full of leadership (Interrogation) manipulations and some very good debuffs. I think the Grey Knight mastery of all things psychic is going to be huge. It makes me lean towards going back to my full LIbby, full Warp Charge options. 

 

They will obviously be very hard to charge. The Lion's Blade might be full BS overwatch, but even a Ravenwing Plasmatalon (twin linked) is going to hurt on BS2. Plus it appears a formation allows a "Tau-tactic" in allowing units within 24" to participate in overwatch.... making assault a much riskier venture.

 

What other big items are out there? What do you think our best avenue is for countering this? 

[Everon]

I'm curious. Have the dreadnoughts and techmarines been brought up to SM par? I guess same for the tanks if they can be squaded? If so, it's a good sign for our new dex when ever it shows up one of these months or years

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The goods news is that our Mastery 3 stave Libby is going to shut down Interromancy quite reliably (3+ re-rolling 1's). except for the Rage blessing which is nice but nothing new (Blood Angels have a similar power in Sanguimancy). So, not too concerned about their unique psychic discipline. 

 

Overwatch at BS2 is still pretty meh. And even at full Ballistic Skill, it's still mostly just bolter firepower, which we typically weather quite well. Of more concern is Black Knights rapid-firing plasma into us. Re-rolling Jink is also pretty annoying, 'Cleansing Flame' or heavy incinerators are going to be needed (they still get their 3+ armour, but at least it fails 1/3rd of the time and it can't be re-rolled). 

 

Given their Deepstrike focus, bringing Interceptor or Coteaz would be a strong move. The Derodeo Dread from Forge World recently got updated with a hellfire cannonade weapon option (to replace the AA autocannons). That would seem to be an ideal solution for Deathwing. As for Ravenwing, I'd be looking at Allying a Whirlwind Scorpius.. 2-4 x krak blasts per turn is pretty nice. It can fire indirectly and Ignore Cover normally because of Barrage. 

[Bartali]

On the face of it, DA aren't as strong as SM. They lack the cornerstone units that SM (Tiggy, Centurions) or even GK (Draigo, Dreadknights, ML3 Libbies) have.

The Chapter trait is 'ok', but not as good as some of the SM ones. It's useless if you're playing someone who doesn't want to assault you for instance.

I still maintain that much like the Gladius, you'll never see the Lion's Blade on your average shop/club/house tabletop that much

Deathwing still aren't that great - I think a GK Terminator/Dreadknight list is better.

 

Ravenwing are probably the most interesting again, much like the last codex. It'll be interesting to see what shakes out to be better - SM or DA bikers.

[Gentlemanloser]

First thoughts;

 

Bring a Skyhammer.

Dangels get Gravs.  Have thier Dreads been updated with the new stats?

Interromancy (lol crap name), /meh not worried.  They won't have a lot of WC, and we can Deny better.

Bikes got a boost.

DW Knights got a boost with the Samsh every turn. 

Dangels get Grav.  Oh I've mentioned that already.

Not seen rules for Belial, but even with a guaranteed Turn 2+ Drop, unless he buffs DS, we're better (and Space Marines are better still).

 

A good update.  Probably not as 'potent' as Space Marines (depending on how the Ravenwing matches up to Space Marine 3 bikes + Gravs + Command Squads).  But def head and sholders above thier last couple of dexes.

 

Thier Termies are still expensive, for a few additional rules.  Won't help with survivability and Terminators are all gonna die much easier now.  So I'd stear clear.

[Bartali]

.

Not seen rules for Belial, but even with a guaranteed Turn 2+ Drop, unless he buffs DS, we're better (and Space Marines are better still).

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Thier Termies are still expensive, for a few additional rules.  Won't help with survivability and Terminators are all gonna die much easier now.  So I'd stear clear.

 

It's a shame really. I like Deathwing, and have dabled with them in the past. It seems they're forever going to be sadled with the 190pt Cpt. Useless tax, and then overcharged for 'meh' special rules

 

5th ed seems a long time ago now when I could field a 'pure' Deathwing list (TDA Characaters, Terminators, Ven Dreads, Land Raiders) and get wins against the more competitive codexes

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Deathwing and GK I think did so well in 5th because no one had the AP2 output to cause them issues. Also, wound allocation shenanigans, a general lack of AP2+Ignore Cover, and melee still mattered. 

 

Nowadays...I think we can get away with Termies because ours are cheap and are incredibly flexible, plus they're on table Turn 1. They just need support, which is why Allies are mandatory now, same for Comms Array. But Deathwing? They get storm shields, sure, but it's not enough. They pay too much for it. 

 

I am keen to see Ravenwing be good again. Heldrakes in 5th really put a huge dent in that build, but now AA has been stepped up across the board, 'Drakes and other Flyer annoyances are able to dealt with (still scary but you have options to counter it eating your whole army). As GML mentions however, they'll need to be decently costed to compete with vanilla Grav-Bikers. The nerfs to the Ravenwing grenade launcher seem a tad stupid, it's not like rad or stasis grenades were ruling tournaments. 

[Rurik the blessed]

Great release of DA, I'm wondering now.... who's next? shall GK receive some love soon?

[Bartali]

I don't think so. GK probably won't get anything for a while yet.

I don't think GK need much at the moment. A lot of the stuff introduced for SM/DA doesn't really effect GK that much, or if we do want it, we can take as allies. GK certainley haven't been left out in the cold like BA have.

 

If the GK codex is to be more than an ally codex (or the mono build that the more pig headed of us likes to play), it needs a bit of an expansion with some new units. That's unlikely to happen in the current cost cutting climate of GW though.

[SyNidus]

I don't think so. GK probably won't get anything for a while yet.

I don't think GK need much at the moment. A lot of the stuff introduced for SM/DA doesn't really effect GK that much, or if we do want it, we can take as allies. GK certainley haven't been left out in the cold like BA have.

 

If the GK codex is to be more than an ally codex (or the mono build that the more pig headed of us likes to play), it needs a bit of an expansion with some new units. That's unlikely to happen in the current cost cutting climate of GW though.

Pig headed? That's a lil harsh mate, I prefer the term purist.

 

Anyway, in regards to the DA codex, I'm looking at the strength of the army, and it's looking really good. If the current trend of power creep keeps up, we're going to have a fairly powerful dex.

 

I'm waiting for more of the codex to be revealed before I discuss countering strategies.

[Prot]

Well they (DA) aren't handcuffed to Belial anymore really because his inherent bonuses to Deathwing are mostly gone, and turned into the DW Detachment. Like our NSF, it's fairly wide open, you just need an HQ, and 2 DW termie squads. And you're off... the Sarg's can take hammer/shield now too.

 

I saw a Relic blade that is S+2 and AP1 I believe. I'll probably see Termie Capt's with that, much more than Belial who will probably still be best served in Hammer/Shield.

 

Deathwing Knights might not get stuck on our Termies as easily because of their ability to enact their Smite (Smash) rule every turn.

 

Unfortunately I'm not really afraid of the Deathwing.... it's the Ravenwing I am seeing as the big threat.

 

Ravenwing can declare when they pass their reserves. The Shroud can prevent overwatch (not likely, but still possible). The Ravenwing rule can allow for re-rolling failed Jinks. These Jinks can still get as good as 2+.

 

In one turn the Ravenwing can turbo + Jink for free, meaning next turn they shoot as normal. 

 

The Ravenwing flyer formation is very similar to the SM one... 2 Nephilims (slightly improved missiles) and 1 Dark Talon which now has a S10 AP2 blast.

 

This is a very good looking Detachment to me. It will have speed, and very good survivability. 

 

I think our Psykers will still shut down Interromancy pretty easily, but I don't see it being used in these stronger bike lists. I used to play exclusively Ravenwing for nearly a year with my DA and this feels like a definite upgrade. 

 

Most of what I said above I have confirmed to a large degree but one thing I'm hearing is the Ravenwing Speeders have Intercept now.

 

So put that all together, and add in the double jink with the ability to hit and run.... I'm honestly thinking one Libby is getting Divination for deny cover. Cover is getting so ridiculous in my Meta I feel forced to take the deny cover stuff. This RW detachment just reinforces that. But without that Jink/Cover/Shroud working for them, I think it takes them down considerably. 

[Bartali]

 

I don't think so. GK probably won't get anything for a while yet.

I don't think GK need much at the moment. A lot of the stuff introduced for SM/DA doesn't really effect GK that much, or if we do want it, we can take as allies. GK certainley haven't been left out in the cold like BA have.

 

If the GK codex is to be more than an ally codex (or the mono build that the more pig headed of us likes to play), it needs a bit of an expansion with some new units. That's unlikely to happen in the current cost cutting climate of GW though.

Pig headed? That's a lil harsh mate, I prefer the term purist.

 

Anyway, in regards to the DA codex, I'm looking at the strength of the army, and it's looking really good. If the current trend of power creep keeps up, we're going to have a fairly powerful dex.

 

I'm waiting for more of the codex to be revealed before I discuss countering strategies.

 

 

Not intended as an insult - I fully class myself in the pig headed group ;)

 

Sadly I note it's not possible to field a Deathwing only list anymore due to forcing you to start in reserves and deep strike turn 2. I had a lot of fun playing Belial, Chap/Libby, 3x DW squads, 2x Land Raiders at 1500 back in 4th/5th.

 

Makes me tempted to try Libby, 2x GKT, 2x Land Raider, 2x Dreadknight at 1500 for a giggle.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Sadly I note it's not possible to field a Deathwing only list anymore due to forcing you to start in reserves and deep strike turn 2.

 

And in one fell swoop, GW kill off the Deathwing.

 

'Allied only' now (Yes, this includes in Codex 'Allies').

[Kruso]

Pure DW is dead, but their sergeants can now apparently take LC or SH+SS instead of being stuck with sword. I remember that seemed to be a big issue for DW players when their last codex dropped. Oh, those poor souls.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm not too concerned about Ravenwing. At least they won't be forcing Skyfire, unlike Nurgle Princes or Crimson Death formation stupidity. 

 

You need more than a random 'Perfect Timing' on your Libby though. Because they'll make a bee-line for him and murder his face Turn 1. Black Knights are pretty much designed to murder enemy Terminators. Pure GK will get eaten alive by Ravenwing. 

 

It's why I reckon the Whirlwind Scorpius is a good choice. It's not overly expensive, AV13 frontal means the plasma talons won't do jack normally (especially behind an Aegis Line), and it nukes them with impunity (D3+1 blast Barrage krak missiles is legit at murdering Marines in cover, and their T5 doesn't matter). Your other options are basically Contemptor with conversion beamer+Battle of Keylek, or Mortis pattern and double plasma cannon+Battle of Keylek (which has the added benefit of being able to nuke Deathwing when they turn up). 

[Gentlemanloser]

And if you don't use Forgeworld?

 

(Rending Sternguard with the Ignore Cover bullets!!)

[Prot]

I'm not too concerned about Ravenwing. At least they won't be forcing Skyfire, unlike Nurgle Princes or Crimson Death formation stupidity. 

 

You need more than a random 'Perfect Timing' on your Libby though. Because they'll make a bee-line for him and murder his face Turn 1. Black Knights are pretty much designed to murder enemy Terminators. Pure GK will get eaten alive by Ravenwing. 

 

 

 

I think the Ravenwing are a massive concern. The formations include combined overwatch (BS2) from 24" units, and the flyers are plausible now.... S10 AP2 blast is decent. The Ravenwing will have to go after your Librarian (or multiples of) as you say, so I think the trick is making a honey pot out of him/them.

 

You will see that the Ravenwing are nearly impossible to keep in close combat.... They will just hit and run from NDK's, and unload plasma including the extended 36" range on the Vengeance. The Speeder formation allows the overwatch (24") as well as the Interceptor rule.

 

So Ravenwing will let you deep strike.... and then the Vengeance drops a large plasma template on them interceptor.... It will be interesting to see how people want to continue with their personal "Gate" rulings... IE: is it deep strike? Because it will make a difference vs. Ravenwing depending on how you play it.

 

I dunno... I see them as a real pain to deal with. I can see leaning heavily on our Psychic phase for this one...

 

The Deathwing Terminators are good... but I just still like ours better overall.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And if you don't use Forgeworld?

 

(Rending Sternguard with the Ignore Cover bullets!!)

 

I dunno why you wouldn't. GW keep failing to give people the right tools, FW keep pumping out solid books and new units to answer threats. Derodeo was basically invented to screw Flyers because the Stalker wasn't enough (until very recently, and even so if you lose a squadron member they all lose Ignore Cover). And they even gave it a plasma alternative, so it can rek Terminators and MC's. 

I think the Ravenwing are a massive concern. The formations include combined overwatch (BS2) from 24" units, and the flyers are plausible now.... S10 AP2 blast is decent. The Ravenwing will have to go after your Librarian (or multiples of) as you say, so I think the trick is making a honey pot out of him/them.

 

You will see that the Ravenwing are nearly impossible to keep in close combat.... They will just hit and run from NDK's, and unload plasma including the extended 36" range on the Vengeance. The Speeder formation allows the overwatch (24") as well as the Interceptor rule.

 

So Ravenwing will let you deep strike.... and then the Vengeance drops a large plasma template on them interceptor.... It will be interesting to see how people want to continue with their personal "Gate" rulings... IE: is it deep strike? Because it will make a difference vs. Ravenwing depending on how you play it.

 

 

Urgh, they gave the Vengeance speeder Interceptor? That's kinda disgusting. It's pretty cheap too, not like a Riptide. 

 

Well, on the plus side, this makes BA a lot more attractive for Allies. Angel Wing shuts down Interceptor hard, in particular blast and templates can't Snap Shot so that reks the Vengeance. That still leaves Black Knight plasma talons on their next turn....hurl a 'Vortex' at them I guess. 

 

As I said, Allies are kinda mandatory these days anyway. So just take anti-biker tech. GK themselves don't do that very well. We have no ranged AP2, or even AP3 (best we can manage is random Rends). 'Perfect Timing' just means they save on 3's with no re-roll, same for heavy incinerators or 'Cleansing Flame'. You need AP3 and Ignore Cover, which apparently is only for heretics or xenos. I'd recommend a LRR, but they still have multi-melta Attack Bikes, and it's slow...

 

Yeah, like I said earlier, nuke them with a Scorpius or Contemptor Mortis w/ twin plasma cannon+Battle of Keylek (as it also deals with Deathwing quite well, two AP2 blasts starts to test their storm shield saves). If you let them have Jink saves, it's GG, they'll out-attrition you. 

[Zhukov]

DA codex can be summed up by the notion that Dark Reapers are temporarily out of stock

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

And if you don't use Forgeworld?

 

(Rending Sternguard with the Ignore Cover bullets!!)

 

I dunno why you wouldn't. GW keep failing to give people the right tools, FW keep pumping out solid books and new units to answer threats. Derodeo was basically invented to screw Flyers because the Stalker wasn't enough (until very recently, and even so if you lose a squadron member they all lose Ignore Cover). And they even gave it a plasma alternative, so it can rek Terminators and MC's. 

I think the Ravenwing are a massive concern. The formations include combined overwatch (BS2) from 24" units, and the flyers are plausible now.... S10 AP2 blast is decent. The Ravenwing will have to go after your Librarian (or multiples of) as you say, so I think the trick is making a honey pot out of him/them.

 

You will see that the Ravenwing are nearly impossible to keep in close combat.... They will just hit and run from NDK's, and unload plasma including the extended 36" range on the Vengeance. The Speeder formation allows the overwatch (24") as well as the Interceptor rule.

 

So Ravenwing will let you deep strike.... and then the Vengeance drops a large plasma template on them interceptor.... It will be interesting to see how people want to continue with their personal "Gate" rulings... IE: is it deep strike? Because it will make a difference vs. Ravenwing depending on how you play it.

 

 

Urgh, they gave the Vengeance speeder Interceptor? That's kinda disgusting. It's pretty cheap too, not like a Riptide. 

 

Well, on the plus side, this makes BA a lot more attractive for Allies. Angel Wing shuts down Interceptor hard, in particular blast and templates can't Snap Shot so that reks the Vengeance. That still leaves Black Knight plasma talons on their next turn....hurl a 'Vortex' at them I guess. 

 

As I said, Allies are kinda mandatory these days anyway. So just take anti-biker tech. GK themselves don't do that very well. We have no ranged AP2, or even AP3 (best we can manage is random Rends). 'Perfect Timing' just means they save on 3's with no re-roll, same for heavy incinerators or 'Cleansing Flame'. You need AP3 and Ignore Cover, which apparently is only for heretics or xenos. I'd recommend a LRR, but they still have multi-melta Attack Bikes, and it's slow...

 

Yeah, like I said earlier, nuke them with a Scorpius or Contemptor Mortis w/ twin plasma cannon+Battle of Keylek (as it also deals with Deathwing quite well, two AP2 blasts starts to test their storm shield saves). If you let them have Jink saves, it's GG, they'll out-attrition you. 

 

 

Legion of the Damned. Relentless heavy weapons with Ignores Cover built in and a nice 3++ to tank that nasty plasma interceptor fire. Plasma cannon for the win.

 

With interceptor and overwatch the new DA have some of the tricks that made everyone rage against Tau for so long.  Although with not a single DA model to my name I am strangely glad to think that they are finally going to have some really powerful tricks hidden in their dresses robes so that DA players can finally see some reward for years of grim hardship.

[Everon]

Well good news for us in the future, I see techmarines and dreadnoughts were brought up to par.

 

Here's to hoping our codex is actually a 6th edition released during 7th and we get a boost by early next year?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Legion of the Damned. Relentless heavy weapons with Ignores Cover built in and a nice 3++ to tank that nasty plasma interceptor fire. Plasma cannon for the win.

 

Yeah but they don't turn up till Turn 2 at best. Plenty of time for the Ravenwing to rek you. Plus, it's only one blast, which combined with larger Biker models and their ability to spread out...just not as effective. You need multiples to be truly effective. Which is why Scorpius is better. 

With interceptor and overwatch the new DA have some of the tricks that made everyone rage against Tau for so long.  Although with not a single DA model to my name I am strangely glad to think that they are finally going to have some really powerful tricks hidden in their dresses robes so that DA players can finally see some reward for years of grim hardship.

 

Yeah it will be nice to see DA actually matter for once. I love their background but I could never bring myself to put up with their awful rules, edition after edition. It's largely my frustrations with Deathwing being so meh that lead me to GK. 

Well good news for us in the future, I see techmarines and dreadnoughts were brought up to par. 

 

Here's to hoping our codex is actually a 6th edition released during 7th and we get a boost by early next year?

 

Awesome. It's a shame Dreads are still a bit too easy to kill, but 4A really shifts them into their true role, which is an assault walker that also shoots a bit. I'd also be happy with 2W Tech-Marines. If we're really lucky, we might even get Servitor cohorts with ours as well. 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Pure DW is dead, but their sergeants can now apparently take LC or SH+SS instead of being stuck with sword. I remember that seemed to be a big issue for DW players when their last codex dropped. Oh, those poor souls.

 

Strictly speaking the Codex was perfectly clear that they could. It was a poorly worded FAQ that stuffed everything up.

[Kruso]

 

Pure DW is dead, but their sergeants can now apparently take LC or SH+SS instead of being stuck with sword. I remember that seemed to be a big issue for DW players when their last codex dropped. Oh, those poor souls.

 

Strictly speaking the Codex was perfectly clear that they could. It was a poorly worded FAQ that stuffed everything up.

 

 

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Anyway, it was such a crapstorm back then.

 

As for the topic, I can't wait to read the new fluff. I've always liked Dark Angels and their secrets-in-secrets- and circles-in-circles -stuff. Maybe they have added something about the Grey Knights knowing of their secret, like in that novel Can't-remember-the-name?

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah, how the Dangels have got away with blowing up a GK strike cruiser, I've no idea...

 

Maybe the GK prognosticators have been distracted by something!