Dark Angels Incoming: Denying the 1st Legion

[Bartali]

 

I'm not too concerned about Ravenwing. At least they won't be forcing Skyfire, unlike Nurgle Princes or Crimson Death formation stupidity. 

 

You need more than a random 'Perfect Timing' on your Libby though. Because they'll make a bee-line for him and murder his face Turn 1. Black Knights are pretty much designed to murder enemy Terminators. Pure GK will get eaten alive by Ravenwing. 

 

 

 

I think the Ravenwing are a massive concern. The formations include combined overwatch (BS2) from 24" units, and the flyers are plausible now.... S10 AP2 blast is decent. The Ravenwing will have to go after your Librarian (or multiples of) as you say, so I think the trick is making a honey pot out of him/them.

 

You will see that the Ravenwing are nearly impossible to keep in close combat.... They will just hit and run from NDK's, and unload plasma including the extended 36" range on the Vengeance. The Speeder formation allows the overwatch (24") as well as the Interceptor rule.

 

So Ravenwing will let you deep strike.... and then the Vengeance drops a large plasma template on them interceptor.... It will be interesting to see how people want to continue with their personal "Gate" rulings... IE: is it deep strike? Because it will make a difference vs. Ravenwing depending on how you play it.

 

I dunno... I see them as a real pain to deal with. I can see leaning heavily on our Psychic phase for this one...

 

The Deathwing Terminators are good... but I just still like ours better overall.

 

 

 

I don't think Ravenwing are that big a deal, certainly nothing different to existing White Scars lists. Re-roll jink is nice enough, but as with any other biker list if they jink they're snap-shot,ing their melta/plasma/grav next turn.

 

Once you've made a bike unit jink, move on to shooting the next one

[Gentlemanloser]

Ravenwing get to jink then shoot normally next turn once.

 

And really, once is going to be all they need.

 

Pew Pew.

 

(And if not, they're Snap Shotting at BS2 anyway)

[Freman Bloodglaive]

No. They snap shot at BS2 if they are overwatching. Grim resolve does nothing if they're jinking.

[Gentlemanloser]

Does Grim Resolve specify Overwatch?  Thought it was all Snap Shots are at BS2?

 

Still, Ravenwing get the ability to shot normally after a Jink once.  But as far as I can remember, that's a detachment bonus.

[Prot]

The free jink comes from the formation, and the mini formation with the Vengeance/speeders allows the 24" overwatch rule, as well as the interceptor. The Vengeance as well as the Shroud got upgraded, and point reductions (to 3 Hullpoints) and the Vengeance will hit you with AP2 S7 Pie on your way in with interceptor at 36" now.

 

I have less concern about the Deathwing. Maybe that's shortsighted, but I keep seeing all the Buffs to Ravenwing and it looks improved, on a unit by unit bases, plus costs, plus special rules through formations or otherwise. Take into account you can't hold these guys in close combat so you will lose that protection (hit and run, guaranteed with RW banner). Plasma talons on top of guaranteed vengeance speeders as well as the better equipped Dark Talon (with double jink as well!) is capable of the S10 AP2 blast shot at 18" now.

 

It's an elite force that became better at killing elites. So I guess that's why it concerns me. BUT it will have a HUGE hole for psychic stuff as there's no way someone's fitting in a Conclave, or even something remotely close to denying our Psychic phase.

 

I wonder if Invis will work? I feel RW will have superior firepower at AP2, etc, but I see the combined overwatch/BS2 overwatch a bit concerning. But Invis would give us... no advantage there?

 

I know I used to double tap the Plasma Talons on the Blackknights, and just bugger off in the assault phase and do it again, but I see it being worse at higher BS now, and the combined overwatch.

 

Deathwing are Deathwing. Their access to hammer/shield is there, but the Deathwing Knight has to trade in all his attacks for basically 1 smash. They will have plasma cannon capabilities as well, but only 1 in 5. Belial is still a second rate character imo.

 

I think the Multi-wing Lion's Blade is going to be a tough nut to crack, don't forget the DA now also access Grav so yet another reason that the NDK moves closer to an endangered species!

 

I have a sneaking suspicion with the RW super jink goofiness that Tau will be out soon with a total cover denial mechanism that is easy incorporate. ;)
 

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

 

 

I don't think Ravenwing are that big a deal, certainly nothing different to existing White Scars lists. Re-roll jink is nice enough, but as with any other biker list if they jink they're snap-shot,ing their melta/plasma/grav next turn.

 

Once you've made a bike unit jink, move on to shooting the next one

 

 

Ravenwing MSU looks very viable - then when they jink they have plenty of other units to keep up the shooting. You need as many credible shooting threats (no not just one or two storm bolters) as they have units to shut them down and that is really not what GK are best at.

 

I do think Ravenwing just got properly good. Greenwing are decently better and deathwing are still not as good as GKT. With hit and run plus super-duper-better-than-Tau overwatch and interceptor I think GK are going to be learning new tactics to deal with the improved greenwing, they are just like White Scars unless you plan to deep strike in and then assault - when they are better. When you charge they don't care if they jinked - the BS2 overwatch kicks in just fine. Same for interceptor.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I have a sneaking suspicion with the RW super jink goofiness that Tau will be out soon with a total cover denial mechanism that is easy incorporate.

They already do. It's called markerlights. Tau won't have any issues versus Ravenwing. They still blow them off the table with 'Tides and 'Scour'. Ravenwing are actually best suited to killing other Marines, unsurprisingly.

[Prot]

I have a sneaking suspicion with the RW super jink goofiness that Tau will be out soon with a total cover denial mechanism that is easy incorporate.

They already do. It's called markerlights. Tau won't have any issues versus Ravenwing. They still blow them off the table with 'Tides and 'Scour'. Ravenwing are actually best suited to killing other Marines, unsurprisingly.

I know, but what I meant was I think it will get even easier....

Remember those batreps I just did a few weeks ago vs that Tau guy? He was using experimental units of Riptides that were disgusting... They jumped something like 24" and did dual high strength AP2 flamers, and then ran away....

*IF* GW wanted to really, really magic bullet RW, this would be the unit I'd legalize (but get it under control. The current rules are insane.)

GW is looking like they magic bullet last week's codex with the next week's codex. This has happened to varying degrees since we've seen this new amazing pace.

So perhaps TAU are that magic bullet? Then Chaos comes out with no Overwatch allowed, and we're back to the Grey Knights that would mess up Chaos!

See, I have it all planned out. lol

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I would not be surprised if GW incorporated FW units into the main rulebook. It's happened before. And yeah, the FA Riptide is pretty much designed to nuke Marines and run away from melee retaliation. 

 

Even without any new units, Tau don't have issues killing Ravenwing. So they can only improve in that matchup. 

[Aethernitas]

I would not be surprised if GW incorporated FW units into the main rulebook. It's happened before.

 

Pretty sure that unit rules must have corresponding GW units to have 3rd party immunity. If only FW produces a model thats green light for Chapterhouse & Co to get behind the sculting desks.

[jeffersonian000]

Just noticed the DA Teleport Homer only works for TDA that Deep Strike. And that is in fact Deep Strke, not arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. Interesting.

 

SJ

[durdle-durdle]

What about using dark angels as allies? An allied detqtchment could give you one of their librarians to access interromancy, scouts to get teleport homers on the board for accurate turn 1 deep strikes, black knights for some good movable ap2, suicide company vets or a DW command squad with apothecary and storm shields to go around with draigo, devestators or predators for long range anti tank/man the adl. I'm not saying go overboard with it, but I think they can fill some of our gaps pretty nicely.

Another alternative could be their librararius conclave (which competes with the sm one) which would give some fearless librarians with interromancy to our terminator squads.  Also, zeke now gives +1 attack to units within 6", so that's useful too vs the SM one.  youd have to weigh harnessing on a 2+ versus fearless, interromancy, and zeke.

[jeffersonian000]

Yeah, the DA fill our missing roles, which is a little annoying. Deathwing Knights are better Paladins than our Paladins.

 

Although, attaching Draigo and Stern to a unit of DW Knights has a certain synergy, don't you think?

[Prot]

Gees, you know I have to admit I have a large Dark Angel force, and I got the codex on day one, and I'm having real trouble making it click for me.

 

And every unit I analyze I think, 'How are my Grey Knights going to handle this?' 

 

To be sincere I think the thing that bothers me most is our lack of access to hammer/shields against a force like this. IF we can protect the NDKs' from going down too early to Grav Devs/ and Black Knights, it's a great match up for us.

 

In most cases our heavy Incinerators are going to be very good because most RW players will be looking for a shrouded/Skilled Rider re-rollable 2+ jink... it won't happen. They'll get their 3 + and that's it. If you take that dual jink away, then really that just becomes an over priced bike.

 

The Deathwing are very hard to field. The Black Knights are very hard to field. You're looking at seeing 1 large squad, and an HQ. They totally screwed up on the RW command units like Libbies as they aren't considered Libbies.

 

Looking at the special characters. I think Az is expensive, but a good force multiplier. But FnP on a squad, with relentless Grav might be 'good', it won't be good enough against us.... Ezekiel is okay, but we know they won't be doing much in the Psychic phase. I'm really thinking GW didn't do Belial any justice either.

 

In some areas it feels like DA are actually better than Space Marines simply because they got Grav + their special units. But getting some synergy out of that stuff isn't looking to be too easy with the new Formations.

 

Mixed wing might be the most potent. With a single scout squad counting as the Auxiliary for the Lion's Blade we may actually see more Lion's blade than Gladius' !! How strange is that?

 

The Ravenwing Support is fantastic, if you have an ObSec Demi-Co, but again, getting all this to gel together is looking very strange. I have to be honest, right now, I don't like their 'wings' for Detachments. DW is virtually unplayable as a wing, and RW is very good, but... how much of this do you think we'll see? 

[jeffersonian000]

What you do is shoot your Stormbolters first to force a jink, then roast them with the Incinerators while laughing manically.

 

SJ

[durdle-durdle]

What you do is shoot your Stormbolters first to force a jink, then roast them with the Incinerators while laughing manically.

 

SJ

Turn 1 they get a jink without snap shooting. After that, yeah that's a good plan.

[Dread]

I got the DA dex today. Meh, I really don't see much changed from the last. A few words here, changing rules, moving Azrael, still no ironclad. Grav guns, woohoo. Nothing really got fixed, IMHO. We'll see with some play testing but I just feel I rebought the book I got last time.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

They don't have to jink against storm bolters. They choose to jink before you shoot, and storm bolters against toughness 5 and a 3+ save has low enough damage potential they'll just take the armour save.

[casb1965]

They don't have to jink against storm bolters. They choose to jink before you shoot, and storm bolters against toughness 5 and a 3+ save has low enough damage potential they'll just take the armour save.

 

You're not 100% right on that, because they have to declare at the start of the shooting phase they can't let the bolters go and then jink because the shooting phase has already started. So they jink against the bolters or not at all.