Ravenwing Black Knights vs Ravenwing Bikes

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, the rules have been leaked as well as the excellent Ravenwing Detachment and point costs (if you have no seen them, check the NR section). You have FA as your mandatory choices. This means either RW Bikes or RW Knights. While not mutually exclusive, they have some similarities. So here is the question. When would you use them? Would you take both? Would you limit yourself to just one? If so, why? Let's get a discussion going ;)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The rules have been leaked in German I'm not touching any discussion until I have a full Codex in my possession. Furthermore bikes or black knights each have their pros as cons and different uses, there is no discussion to be had, IMHO.

[Frater Cornelius]

The rules have been leaked in German I'm not touching any discussion until I have a full Codex in my possession. Furthermore bikes or black knights each have their pros as cons and different uses, there is no discussion to be had, IMHO.

By all mean, elaborate on the pros and cons. I am wondering, too. And you have probably been using them for longer than I have

[Chaplain Lucifer]

That's why I said I can only comment when I have full possession of the rules. Off the bat, the price tag is one thing that can swing thing for one or the other. Range is also an issue seeing plasma talons are reduced to 12", as well as special weapons. But I think both have their merits and they don't compete for the same spot to warrant a discussion, one vs the other.

[Jazzhands]

ThinK plasma talons have been shown to be the same.

I tend to only use normal ravenwing bike if taking pure rw.

Knights are in most of my lists.

 

But as our brother states not much point in comparison. Both fill different roles

[Frater Cornelius]

I am still not quite clear on what those different roles might be. To be RWBK seem superior in almost every way. And if objective scoring is what you are after, Drop Pods do it better and have more dudes in them. Maybe I am missing something, but my first instinct tells me RWBK.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Grav, attack bikes,24" range. RWBK don't have that.

[Frater Cornelius]

Grav, attack bikes,24" range. RWBK don't have that.

 

Fair enough, Grav is a reason I buy. But not Attack Bikes, since they will be purchasable on their own and thus do not depend on Bikes to bring them.

[WellSpokenMan]

From what I've gathered so far:

 

RWBs are 25 points with Scout, Hit & Run, & Re-rollable Jink. 

 

RWBKs are 40 points with the above rules plus Skilled Rider, Plasma Talons, +2Atk, +1Ld, +1Str and Rending in CC.  RWBKs can also get FNP in RCS. 

 

Black Knights are the winners, but they will be receiving a lot of attention.  RWBs are no slouches with the ability to add 2 Special weapons and Attack Bikes.  I might outfit My Sarges with Power Fists as well.  A unit like that can do a lot of damage while your opponent is busy trying to deal with the Knights. 

 

I think it is somewhat ammusing that this re-rollable Jink makes Ravenwing a serious CC build.  Particulary if run with a Darkshroud.

[Master Avoghai]

The choice only exist to me if yu don't include any flyer in your RWBF.

 

It seems (If I understood well since I've mistaken the plasma talon change ;) ) that the RWBF may either be deployed entirely OR kept in reserve entirely.

 

Problem is : since you are obliged to keep your flyers in reserve according to the rulebook, then it means that the inclusion of a single flyer oblige you to keep everybody in reserve.

 

So you end up with the same problem as DWBF : how do you do to have someone on the battlefield turn 1?

 

To me the only solution is to have RWAS.

 

Moroever this formation seems really strong

They have scout (even the LS :blink: )

They can summon the DW

They gain +1BS if the LS hits the same target...

 

So to me, if you want to include a flyer you have no choice : you HAVE to take the 3 flyers formation OR you have to include bikes

[Liberame]

Being a RW player myself, the BK are good all rounders, superior in every way, but they still die at about the same ease as a regular biker, skilled rider only helps so much. In the last codex I avoided using rwbk when possible and only took multiple command squads, which with our formation, can only have one command squad per detachmt it looks like. Double meltagun and multi melts Attack back for the regular raven wing was very strong so is double flamer.

 

In the older codex bikers had the advantage of the devastation banner, with that gone I'll go back to using my bikes as specialist roles of going after tanks and now mc (because we get grav now) and let my Knights take on the general majority of my opponents. Imperial Knights are common in my gaming area, so talons don't do too well for me vs a melta

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Avoghai - Good job spotting that flyer issue. I also like the RWAS Formation. Taking two of those would really be awesome. However, that either means you need to take a lot of sources and some tournaments ban those, or play the Lion's Blade. The Lion's Blade seems horribly inefficient, because you need to take a Company Master instead of a Librarian and you have a ASM and Dev tax.

There is a third solution, namely RWSF + CAD. That way you can bring all your Ravenwing (except flyers) in one detachments and your preferred support elements (including flyers) in the other one. If you go for option three, you then need to see who plays better with Tacs, RWBK or RWAS? Tough to say.

Option four is to skip flyers and get RWSF for the RWBK + Dark Shrouds and RWAS Formations to get the whole package.

Too many options...

 

@ Liberame - Do not forget the 3+ or even potential 2+ rerollable jink save. This makes RWBK excellent melee units as mentioned above. However, I still agree that taking so many high profile units is risky. I usually just run one Command Squad on bikes with SM and no Cents or one RWCS without RWBK because I only have one efficient tank to protect them. The rest are Tacs or regular Bikes or both to saturate the board. Basically one star and the guys supporting it.

Would that be a way to run them? Sammael + RWCS + RWAS + whatever else, for example CAD with Tacs?

 

Also, a bit of Math.

At 18" 5 RWBK vs 6 RWAS with 2 Grav shooting against T4:

2+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 4.6 wounds

3+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 4.0 wounds

4+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 3.3 wounds

5+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 2.7 wounds

6+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 2.0 wounds (2.7 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

 

At 9" shooting against T4:

2+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 6.6 wounds

3+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 5.3 wounds

4+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 4.6 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

5+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 4.0 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

6+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 3.3 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

 

So, RWBK almost universally outperform RWAS at a 20pts premium given the setup above. However RWAS are less dependent on range and have ablative wounds so they are not as reliant of jinking. This gives RWBK greater killing power but RWAS have greater flexibility.

Given this info alone, I recon that one RWCS with characters and two RWAS will make a good balance. However, if you bring an extra CAD into the mix with Drop Pod Tacs, the RWAS will lose value against RWBK since Tacs can do the mid-field duty while RWBK can do the killing.

[FarFromSam]

They each have their roles, but with introduction of grav, possible loss of ob sec, possible nerf to rad, possible addition of MMAB squads, possible loss of Bolter Banner, possibly stronger fliers, it's safe to say it's too early to tell where they'll end up.  

 

Not sure if pure Ravenwing, or pure Deathwing are viable with the rules we have available atm.  Missing Ob sec has me worried.  Dual wing utilizing equal parts Melta RAS and RBK to perform their roles looks to be strong.  Actually... if we can get it... squads of melta attack bikes and grav RAS may win out for me since fliers aren't as bad of a choice for anti air.  

 

BK's might be feeling anxious...

 

Time will tell.  We need more information namely, for me, ob sec status on bikes will make the call for me. (not holding my breath)  

[FarFromSam]

@ Avoghai - Good job spotting that flyer issue. I also like the RWAS Formation. Taking two of those would really be awesome. However, that either means you need to take a lot of sources and some tournaments ban those, or play the Lion's Blade. The Lion's Blade seems horribly inefficient, because you need to take a Company Master instead of a Librarian and you have a ASM and Dev tax.

There is a third solution, namely RWSF + CAD. That way you can bring all your Ravenwing (except flyers) in one detachments and your preferred support elements (including flyers) in the other one. If you go for option three, you then need to see who plays better with Tacs, RWBK or RWAS? Tough to say.

Option four is to skip flyers and get RWSF for the RWBK + Dark Shrouds and RWAS Formations to get the whole package.

Too many options...

@ Liberame - Do not forget the 3+ or even potential 2+ rerollable jink save. This makes RWBK excellent melee units as mentioned above. However, I still agree that taking so many high profile units is risky. I usually just run one Command Squad on bikes with SM and no Cents or one RWCS without RWBK because I only have one efficient tank to protect them. The rest are Tacs or regular Bikes or both to saturate the board. Basically one star and the guys supporting it.

Would that be a way to run them? Sammael + RWCS + RWAS + whatever else, for example CAD with Tacs?

Also, a bit of Math.

At 18" 5 RWBK vs 6 RWAS with 2 Grav shooting against T4:

2+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 4.6 wounds

3+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 4.0 wounds

4+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 3.3 wounds

5+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 2.7 wounds

6+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 2.0 wounds (2.7 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

At 9" shooting against T4:

2+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 6.6 wounds

3+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 5.3 wounds

4+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 4.6 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

5+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 4.0 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

6+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 3.3 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

So, RWBK almost universally outperform RWAS at a 20pts premium given the setup above. However RWAS are less dependent on range and have ablative wounds so they are not as reliant of jinking. This gives RWBK greater killing power but RWAS have greater flexibility.

Given this info alone, I recon that one RWCS with characters and two RWAS will make a good balance. However, if you bring an extra CAD into the mix with Drop Pod Tacs, the RWAS will lose value against RWBK since Tacs can do the mid-field duty while RWBK can do the killing.

How do the numbers look against T8 Monstrous creatures, Imperial Knights, and landraiders?

[Frater Cornelius]

I think Obj.Sec. Pods are the supreme way to score objectives. Bikes are too easily pushed off an objective. After having another look, I really feel that the book is designed with Multi-wing in mind. DW + RW is solid, but lacks man power. I think that RW + GW will be a solid strategy. This is where you get some of your killing power (Grav-Cannons, Special Weapons) but mostly your objective camping from.

That means bikes should really be the rapid response part of the army, pressuring and bringing killing power to where it is needed.

 

Edit: Well against IK, LR and T8 the RWAS win without question. However, their roles can also be filled by Tacs to some degree.

[FarFromSam]

Immersturm, out of likes for today, but you get one here any way.  You nailed it.

 

Multi wing wins it.  Gaming part of me is excited for how it looks on the table, and how strong it looks to be, but fluff part of me wishes there was a way to be equally as strong with DW or RW only builds.  Last codex we had trouble with being too expensive and needing too many things to synergize and get going.  This codex helps a little bit point wise, but might suffer from the same thing.

 

Greenwing gives cheap ob sec, and bodies.  The two things we're missing.  

 

United we'll stand, divided we'll fall.

[Liberame]

@ Avoghai - Good job spotting that flyer issue. I also like the RWAS Formation. Taking two of those would really be awesome. However, that either means you need to take a lot of sources and some tournaments ban those, or play the Lion's Blade. The Lion's Blade seems horribly inefficient, because you need to take a Company Master instead of a Librarian and you have a ASM and Dev tax.

There is a third solution, namely RWSF + CAD. That way you can bring all your Ravenwing (except flyers) in one detachments and your preferred support elements (including flyers) in the other one. If you go for option three, you then need to see who plays better with Tacs, RWBK or RWAS? Tough to say.

Option four is to skip flyers and get RWSF for the RWBK + Dark Shrouds and RWAS Formations to get the whole package.

Too many options...

 

@ Liberame - Do not forget the 3+ or even potential 2+ rerollable jink save. This makes RWBK excellent melee units as mentioned above. However, I still agree that taking so many high profile units is risky. I usually just run one Command Squad on bikes with SM and no Cents or one RWCS without RWBK because I only have one efficient tank to protect them. The rest are Tacs or regular Bikes or both to saturate the board. Basically one star and the guys supporting it.

Would that be a way to run them? Sammael + RWCS + RWAS + whatever else, for example CAD with Tacs?

 

Also, a bit of Math.

At 18" 5 RWBK vs 6 RWAS with 2 Grav shooting against T4:

2+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 4.6 wounds

3+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 4.0 wounds

4+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 3.3 wounds

5+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 2.7 wounds

6+ save - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 2.0 wounds (2.7 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

 

At 9" shooting against T4:

2+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 6.6 wounds

3+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 5.3 wounds

4+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 4.6 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

5+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 4.0 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

6+ save - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 3.3 wounds (5.3 if only TL-Bolters shoot)

 

So, RWBK almost universally outperform RWAS at a 20pts premium given the setup above. However RWAS are less dependent on range and have ablative wounds so they are not as reliant of jinking. This gives RWBK greater killing power but RWAS have greater flexibility.

Given this info alone, I recon that one RWCS with characters and two RWAS will make a good balance. However, if you bring an extra CAD into the mix with Drop Pod Tacs, the RWAS will lose value against RWBK since Tacs can do the mid-field duty while RWBK can do the killing.

If you're comparing to 6 RWAS, then make it 4 grav, I msu the crap out of ravenwing, so when an opponent shoots me, I don't mind if I lose a sub100 point squad

 

Based off what we know of the codex, 2 RWAS squads of 3 with 2 grav guns should be 210 points compared to 5 black Knights at 200pts

[Frater Cornelius]

Aye, good point. I will calculate that one as well. My guess is that at 18" the MSU wins but RWBK will still have the upper hand up close and totally win out in melee against T1-T5.

[Liberame]

They will no doubt win the melee fight, I'm going to have to rebuild a bunch of ravenwing to do what I envision.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Liberame - I will do this a bit more specific now. 5 RWBK vs 2*3 RWAS w/ 2 Grav each. By wounds I mean unsaved wounds.

MEQ 18" - BK: 3.7 wounds; B: 5.6 wounds

TEQ/TWC w/ 3++ 18" - BK: 1.24 wounds; B: 2.4 wounds / 2 wounds

GEQ 18" - 3.7 wounds; B: 3.9 wounds (3.5 with only TL-Bolters)

Fleshhounds 18" - BK: 2.5 wounds; B: 1.5 wounds (1.8 with only TL-Bolters)

Riptide with 3++ 18" - BK: 1 wound; B: 2.3 wounds

RWAS wins.

 

MEQ 9" - BK: 7.4 wounds; B: 5.9 wounds

TEQ/TWC w/ 3++ 9" - BK: 2.5 wounds; B: 2.5 wounds / 2.2 wounds

GEQ 9" - 7.4 wounds; B: 5 wounds (7.1 with only TL-Bolters)

Fleshhounds 9" - BK: 5 wounds; B: 2.0 wounds (3.6 with only TL-Bolters)

Riptide with 3++ 9" - BK: 2 wound; B: 2.32 wounds

RWBK win.

 

So again, you want BK for close encounters, where they will probably need a good tank. Also, if you need to be close to perform, this defeats the purpose of having a fast moving response force, especially if you want to go into melee. This leads me to the conclusion that you want Tacs in Pods, one RWCS with Characters, three units of MSU Grav Bikes with MM Trikes, one Dark Shroud + 250-300 points of whatever you desire.

[Master Avoghai]

@ Avoghai - Good job spotting that flyer issue. I also like the RWAS Formation. Taking two of those would really be awesome. However, that either means you need to take a lot of sources and some tournaments ban those, or play the Lion's Blade. The Lion's Blade seems horribly inefficient, because you need to take a Company Master instead of a Librarian and you have a ASM and Dev tax.

Tournaments will have to evolve anyway as multiple formations is the way to go for the codex to come... Particularly with ours, whose functionning really mimic like the chapter should work with detachment from the 1st and the 2nd that joins regular battle companies.

 

On the other side and that's a personnal thought, but I think that since they are aware they''ll never succed to manage tournament play, GW team try to release lots of "non allowed in tourny things"... That way, people will be discouraged to participate to tournament because they will be tired to be forbidden to field their armies... (Note that I don't approve this way of thinking because it also leads to customer leaving but that's GW's business after all)

 

I will personnaly go with

-Sammael + 2 libbys on bike

-One nephilim

-One DT

-One RW command squad

for the RW BF detachment

 

beside of which, I'll include :

-2 RWAS (composition to be defined)

 

Don't know if it would leave points.. If so I would gladly add a darkshroud

 

Anyway I think that even without any flyers (or if I prefer add the 3 flyers formation), I'll go for RW bikes with meltas to deal with tank threat)

[Frater Cornelius]

The list I would want to try out first is this:

Hidden Content

CAD

Librarian - ML2, Axe, Bike

10 Tacs - Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav Cannon, Drop Pod

10 Tacs - Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav Cannon, Drop Pod

Drop Pod

Dark Talon

RWSF

Sammael

RWCS (5) - Apothecary

RWAS (3) - 2 Grav

Trike - MM

RWAS (3) - 2 Grav

Trike - MM

RWAS (3) - 2 Grav

Trike - MM

Dark Shroud

1750pts

The step to 1850 would be to add combi-Grav to the Bikes, give the Apothecary the Preferred Enemy Relic and throw a few points here and there for upgrades, like the RW Banner.

However, I think I will not use the Dark Talon in competitive games and rather get a Rhino with another 10 Tacs in there to get more dudes up and running and to have something body block the inevitable Skyhammer Charges (not that RWBK need defending from that ).

[L30n1d4s]

Some thoughts I had on the newest version of RW Black Knights... overall, I think they will be one of the top-tier units in the game for some time to come:

 

https://greysplinter.wordpress.com/2015/06/22/analysis-black-knights-in-the-new-dark-angel-book/

[Frater Cornelius]

They have always been top tier. The issue was that everything else around them was bad. Now that everything is good, they will get their time to shine.

There already is a thread about RWBK and the comparison to RWAS as well as uses for them. If you have ideas, feel free to chime in.

[mysideofthemirror]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303857-rumours-dark-angels-2015-codex-leaks-pg-62/?p=4097955

 

In english - "or deployed as normal'" - this means you can use flyers without forcing everything into reserve.  If you choose to deploy some units to start the game however your not guaranteed the turn 2 reserves showing up.