Making DW viable

[Polythemus]

Hey guys,

 

just thinking out loud here regarding making termies viable considering what we know now. I think that based on the design theory we are seeing we can expect that when the sixth codex came out blind (WS/BS debuffs) was the mechanism that they were thinking would save terminators now that we have Interromancy plus librarius conclave It may be that this is the mechanism. A though experiement leads me to thinking this way

two DW squads, one with termie libby, zeke in a pod, and a bike libby with some raven wing. these three libbys ensure that you can spread zeke and the biker to give the 12" connection node for psychic debuffs. while your still dealing with enhanced denials vs maledictions if may work if you deep struck your termies near something that can kill them.

 

thoughts?

[FarFromSam]

Can't resist the urge to weigh in despite the lack of all rules.

 

I think pure DW didn't get stronger and will still struggle.  If anything the loss of FnP banner won't compensate the price decrease.  Customized sgts are nice, but won't stop the weight of fire problem.  And with the possible loss of ob sec, even at 35 points a model, and the new rules, I think the DW would be hurting.  Maybe Land raiders will save the day.

 

DW's best bet is going to be supporting other elements and letting them support the DW back. 

 

My two cents

[Polythemus]

well i can't say that I was reccomending pure DW. I am looking at a combination of units as a means to make DW more feasible. As it is now everyone thinks terminators are not a viable option ever. If you take some combo of the above units with some support elements It may be possible. 

[FarFromSam]

I like the idea of putting the pinch on other armies by deep striking in two five man termies in between bikes and the enemy.  Either assault nasty terminators, or get shot to death by bikes.  Might work even better now if the "choose whether or not to pass a reserve roll" applies for DW.  Get to pick when and where we drop in and give em the squeeze.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ farfromsam - To quote you from the RW thread: 'United we stand. Divided we fall.'

I think Greenwing should make the core of every competitive DA list now, seeing as they offer decent punch, Obj.Sec. pods and capping prowess. In addition to that you then add DW or RW and whatever you desire.

 

The question is, how do you want to play the DW. Via the DW Strike Force? Or the DW Redeption Force Formation? Both offer slightly different things.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Once again, I think we we have the full Codex and a few games under the belt we will be able to determine what will be viable for DW.

My footslogging DW were viable outside tournaments. Not top performers but they would go down fighting. With points reduction and a few buffs I expect them to be better. I will have to choose what kind of formation/detachment/CAD is better but things look better just by seeing some of their bonuses and changes. TH sgt is back. :D

[Master Sindiferous]

I played DW extensively with 6th and loved the first round face slap we could bring.  I will miss that in particular, but until I see the full codex and understand the full mechanics I can't really say how I am going to go forward.  I think I may be building out my dust collecting RW squadron box and my RW BK boxes to throw into the mix.  

 

I already run  my GW with Company Master and quad gun or a small squad of RW with a Libby on bike at times support DW, so the new Interomancy powers may help along with bikes carrying transponders to offset the First turn Deep Strike.  Bikes jinking without loosing BS round one just might get me close enough with the new Call to War (??) for DW, so that I don't have to use Belial to get precise strike on second turn.  More like a feint with bikes and a precision strike on second round within 12 ' of RW transponders after you see how your opponent opens up his game.  Throw another Libby in terminator Armor and link the two for added effect.

 

Maybe going second will be better, but nothing like taking the initiative to run hard and fast and keep your opponent guessing.

 

Guess we will see how the rest of the Codex breaks down.

 

Never Forget! Never Forgive!

[Master Avoghai]

Just an self-quote of what I've written in the general rumors topic.

 

About the DW auto loose : actually it's a debate that happens every single time since v3 codex. in 2007, everybody was moaning about the fact that you have to take Belial to pass the termis as troops, whereas in v3, only a Librarian or a chappy on TDA was necessary. This loss of flexibility was justified by GW with the fact that, if you liked, you were now free to include vindicators, WW or RW bikes in your list (whereas the v3 version limited to only DW termi, dreads and LR).

Of course it was not a satisfying answer for those who wanted to play pure DW army but at this time, Jervis started to evoke the mojo "but DW needs support from the rest of the chapter"

 

In 2012 : it was the same thin : Belial was still the only way to field DW as troops and they released this strange "hurry up guys I need to go to the bathroom" model. Many people were wondering : wouldn't have been simpler to create the entry "master of the DW" rather than creating a model in the finecast range that was already vanishing due to lack of quality? Moreover, lots of people complaining about the special rules that were not complementary (mix'n match vs vengeful strike)

And when people starts complaining about how hard it was to run pure DW, GW answered again : the codex was not made to run pure DW. Of course you can, and it could be a nice challenge, but we've tried to make a codex based on the synergy of the 2 wings.

 

Here again we see that DW is not made to be run as a pure army. It's even worse because in the previous version, you could still do it and have a tough game. Now you cannot have a game at all. But the justification will always be the same : the formations are made to be played in synergy with RWAS.

The best proof is that our scouts still don't have teleport homer... GW wants the DA to work with the black and white synergy.

 

And now they have the unbound excuse... They still did not understand that people play a game to apply a corpus of rules and deal with it... If tomorrow you allow football players to use their hands or Rugby players to pass the ball forward, be sure that lots of them will quit.

In conclusion I think we should stop hoping for any pure DW army. It's not GW goals to let us play such army anyway...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

It seems that pure DW or pure RW is dead. That said, the formations for them are nice as allies. I dislike that DW lost it's first turn deepstrike, that was a major selling point of deathwing, and now it's gone, making them less useful in my eyes. 

[Frater Cornelius]

It seems that pure DW or pure RW is dead. That said, the formations for them are nice as allies. I dislike that DW lost it's first turn deepstrike, that was a major selling point of deathwing, and now it's gone, making them less useful in my eyes. 

 

The one DW unit I am interested in are the DWK and I can easily run them in a CAD, riding a Land Raider with Ezekiel and having a good ole time. However, that is a tri-wing list I am talking about. I really think that this book has been designed with multi-wing in mind.

RW + DW work out very well actually. You use the RWSF and Turbo-Boost T1 to get your free jink save and still fire next turn, preferably with Dark Shroud. T2 pretty much all bikes are alive and can shoot and TDA can drop around them without scattering and the entire army opens fire and wins the game. With these kinds of combos, I am willing to give up T1 deep strike.

[Polythemus]

Agreed

 

I want to get a sense of what the points would be for a green wing with lions blade with chap in termie armor, plus libraries conclave with zeke and termie lib and bike Libby, with deathwing formation and rave wing. Units can't count as being part of two formations right?

 

I am starting to get the sense that detachments are easier to work with than the formations. Will have to keep the nomenclature straight when describing these.

[Daevyll]

DW viability has taken another, non-new-codex related hit in my opinion because of the increased number of AP2 theats out there since our last codex. Not just the updated codexes of exisiting armies, but new ones as well; just look at the number of AP2 options in the Adeptus Mechanicus list, or the Harlequins.

 

Terminator armour just doesnt have the added value it used to have.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

DW and ravenwing working together is a good plan, as I don't believe that Ravenwing lost their teleport homers. So that tactic will still work, but with DW losing their first turn deep strike, it's going to be a trick to keep the ravenwing alive, so you can't be as aggressive as you'd usually be. The way I played it, was deploy as far ahead as I could (right at 12") then make my scout move near cover, and then deep strike the termies in and then use my movement to dart into cover, all while providing a base of fire for the DW. Then DW would take over the base of fire job with the stormbolters and assault cannons. 

 

I'd still like to have 10 more deathwing terminators (push fit are fine, as they're cheap), and second full up ravenwing attack squadron. 

[Frater Cornelius]

No, keeping them alive will be trivial with the Ravenwing Strike Force. Turbo Boost and get jink and shoot with full potential when DW arrive. Black Knights with Dark Shroud will do the job amazingly well and herald the arrival of death ;)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So, maybe I'm missing something, does the new book have more than just the Lion's Blade detachment? So there are ways to build pure DW and RW armies, are they core formations or are they detachments?

[Frater Cornelius]

They are full-fledged Detachments. RW has 12 FA and a few others and allows only RW units. DW has 10(?) Elites and only DW units can be taken. There are also Formations.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Nice. Although the DW detachment, seems to be somewhat lacking (since DW no longer have the T1 deeps strike), I think the way to run it will be with land raiders and t2 deep strike.