Ravenwing newbie

[steve!]

Hey folks,

 

Thinking of starting up a pure Ravenwing force when the new book comes out. wanted to try something different to my usual style of marines and bikes and speeders where never something I really took.

 

I was wondering if some of the more experienced RW players can maybe give me some tips or pros and cons etc. Obviously some things have changed with the new book however any help would be awesome.

 

Thinking of starting by getting the new RW battleforce also.

 

Thanks

[Frater Cornelius]

I am spending my free time thinking about that very issue. The Ravenwing. I do not think a pure force would be as effective as a Dualwing one, but I may be wrong. Either way, you definitely want to look into Black Knights and Dark Shrouds supported by regular Bikes and Trikes. The Ravenwing Strike Force will be your best bet, possibly supported by some of the Ravenwing Formations you usually find in the Lion's Blade Detachment (which can also be taken on their own).

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I agree that a Dualwing would probably be the most effective way to make it work. Bikes and Dark Talons like crazy.

[Frater Cornelius]

I agree that a Dualwing would probably be the most effective way to make it work. Bikes and Dark Talons like crazy.

 

Which is the point where I am stuck. GW + RW, Bikes or Black Knights or both but less Tacs? Options :D

 

Either way, you will probably need to decide which way you want to go, pure RW or Dualwing. If it is pure RW, then the choices become more straight forward, at the cost of efficiency however. Hell, I even just made a pretty decent triple-wing list with the codex. A lot if possible here. Take your pick of the litter ;)

[Liberame]

I use to play strictly ravenwing for a long time and have learned their flaws and strengths. In tournament settings I needed to bring in some tau broadsides to shore up my anti air so that my RW could handle the rest. With the escalation of power in recent codices, I've grown fond of multiple small units, MSU.

 

With the old codex I would run Sammael a Libby on bike and 6 minimum 3 man squads of bikes with melta guns with an attached multi melta Attack bike, 5 man command squad with apothecary and the dakka banner. Came out to be a shy over 1500 pts but it was always my core. Libby would try to get invisibility and keep my command squad safe

 

I would add black Knights and occasionally land speeders to provide support depending on points. Sammael would help protect one of the bike squads, if I added extra bodies then he went there. He was typically always a the first casualty,having cursed army and never knew how to pass a cover save. His plasma cannon always got hot but he made sure everything else stayed alive to pour out the fire power.

 

We play in an edition where people bring overwhelming firepower via imperial Knights, wave serpents, wraith Knights, 20 man packs of dogs, jetbiikes, and wraith blobs. With the loss of the dakka banner I feel free from the burden of being handled around one unit to get the benefit, I can surround and spread my units to cover multiple angles and objectives. More often than not, I'm jinking, however my opponent doesn't have enough firepower to make ALL my units jink. I have 12, count it, 12 100 point units or less that are allowed packing melta weaponry. A super choppy unit with tons of plasma. And with the introduction of grav, I'm going to be swapping out some guns on my boys in black.

 

With the buffs to the speeders and planes, I'm not going to need to look elsewhere for anti air support anymore, which is good since I sold all my tau. I am excited for this release, I sold my original ravenwing army that I painted for the ETL 2 years ago, but I have a new unpainted one waiting on my desk. Wasn't sure if I was going to bite the bullet and go back to vanilla, but RW are here to stay....with some Black Templars...

[ValourousHeart]

Well given your previous struggles with the Jetbike, perhaps this time you might consider the Sableclaw (speeder).

 

The jetbike is all about the rule of cool, but Sableclaw was the real beat stick in the codex in the last 2 versions, and I am seeing nothing in the next codex to change that.

It doesn't miss (6-7 hits per turn), it wounds most units on 2/3+ (5-6 wounds per turn), has the ability to pen AV14... and now can vector strike.  Actually it is better than Vector strike since it hits rear armor, where vector strike hits side armor.

 

The issue that most people face is that they believe that you can just swap anything for something thing else of equal points and if it does better then it is great and if it does worse then it sucks.

 

But if that is true then consider this.  Would you consider a predator as a suitable replacement for an assault squad?  Would you need to change your tactics or even other parts of your list to accomodate that switch?  They are about the same point cost, but they don't directly replace eachother.

 

When you put it to them that way most people will agree that predators and assault squads are both decient units but one really can't cover the other's job.  Well it is really no different with Sammie and Sableclaw.

 

I recommend a solid core of Sableclaw, 12 bikes, 2 attack bikes, and 2 speeders.  You should be able to fit that into a 1000 points without any difficulty with some points left for upgrades.  You may not be able to get everything you want in that list, but you'll have everything you'll need.  At 1500 points you'll want to be at 18 bikes, 3 attack bikes and 5 speeders (including sableclaw), you'll have plenty of points to work with here, and you could fit in more units or go nuts on upgrades.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Would I regard a Predator as a replacement for an Assault Squad?

 

I'd sooner take a Predator than an Assault Squad, let's put it that way.

[Frater Cornelius]

Sableclaw will be forced to jink half the time. You can not risk anything with only 2HP and rear AV10. I kinda prefer solo Sammael permajinking and chopping up enemy scoring units. I love tough solo characters, they are annoying and disrupt your game but are not really worth shooting, especially not Sammael with his 3+ or even 2+ rerollable jink. Sableclaw simply lacks output when forced to Jink.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Sableclaw jinking has BS2. with twin linked it will still get a fairly high number of shots in. That said if you play Sableclaw thoughtfully AV10 rear is not a problem. If he stays 24" from the enemy he has a tough AV14 and 4+ to avoid jinking, specially if around him are squads that prevent anyone from getting to the rear/assault range.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Grim resolve does not apply when the model is jinking, and only applies when firing overwatch.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Gah. Sorry. I blame the rules having less than 48 hrs. ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

I will definitely give it a spin. AV14 is still respectable enough and it can still function as my Scoring Unit hunter. We shall see how it performs.

[ValourousHeart]

The only times I feel a struggle with Sableclaw are vs the "I'd kick my own mother down a flight of stairs" lists.

And vs those lists there really isn't anything you can do.

Your opponent has decided that his fragile ego is more important than any semblance of fun for both sides.

 

If that is the envornment you are playing in, then you have my condolences.

But if you want to compete in that envornment you have to bring the biggest DBag list you can think of and hope that it is enough.

DA will probably never have that level of DBag factor.

These DBag lists I'm referring to are the ones that even if you do manage to beat them, you still feel like quiting the hobby.

 

Now this is not the same as just highly competitive lists.

You can have a highly competitive list that doesn't suck the joy out of life.

Vs those types of lists, Sableclaw only died about 4-5 times during 4th and 5th edition.

The 1-2 times that I faced those DBag lists made me skip 6th edition all together.

 

AV14 means that they have to us a min S8 weapon to do anything.

If they are getting in your rear armor, then you are doing something wrong.

Sure there are lots of ways to get to the table but that doesn't mean you can't account for them and plan accordingly.

 

Trust me, if you are running enough threats at him, and limiting his ability to effectively respond to you, you won't have to worry about Sammie.

The way you win is with local superiority.

 

There are 3 things to consider when trying attain local superiority, one is more units, two is more models and three is more points.

If you have the advantage in models, units and points in this part of the field then you will carry the day.

Very few lists can split fire enough to handle all of our MSU.

 

Focus on limiting his ability to respond.

If you can't completely prevent the unit from responding (killing it) then over saturate it with targets.

 

10 landspeeders with assault cannons and heavy bolters are about 700 points, they should be able to take out 3 tactical squads.

The only way that they can respond to those speeders, if they were run a 10 different units, meaningfully was if they were combat squads with transports... that would give them 9 units to fire back with.

But the way those 3 tactical squads survive is by packing them selves up in those Rhinos, but that also means that they have fewer shots coming back at you.

 

Now be wairy of Tau, most of your benefits as RW are negated by the basic Tau rules... and any list tayloring gives them even more of an advantage.

But like I said you can face a competitive list that is doesn't suck the joy out of life... or you can face the type of list that does.

[Frater Cornelius]

The only times I feel a struggle with Sableclaw are vs the "I'd kick my own mother down a flight of stairs" lists.

And vs those lists there really isn't anything you can do.

Your opponent has decided that his fragile ego is more important than any semblance of fun for both sides.

 

[...]

 

That is the kind of people you face at tournaments. Beating them is possible. The list is only part of the fight. I do not care if they bring the cheesiest cheese that ever cheesed, I will still take them on and I will still win. Also, some people, including me, derive their fun from making strong lists. Besides, 'this unit is bad against good lists, because the list is good' is a bad argument. You need to analyze the merits and drawbacks and then apply them to the lists you are most likely to face in any given meta.

[WellSpokenMan]

You'll want a Ravenwing Support Squadron.  Take 2-5 Land Speeders and either a Darkshroud or a Vengeance and you gain Strafing Run (BS5 against no-flyers and skimmers), Interceptor, and the ability to fire overwatch on behalf of a buit within 24"  The Darkshroud gives the entire formation Stealth and Shrouded.  The Vengeance makes the bad guys (and occasionally itself)  go poof. 

[depthcharge12]

With all the new unit entries and updates, you literally can't go wrong picking units from the Raven wing.

 

I'd highly recommend grabbing either the support squad or bikes+speeder detachment and the Silence Squadron. Those three flyers get work done with Blacksword missiles deleting Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Dark Talon dropping a no scatter can of nope on an enemy unit. Not to mention the rift cannon taking a dump on death star units.

[ValourousHeart]

 

The only times I feel a struggle with Sableclaw are vs the "I'd kick my own mother down a flight of stairs" lists.

And vs those lists there really isn't anything you can do.

Your opponent has decided that his fragile ego is more important than any semblance of fun for both sides.

 

[...]

 

That is the kind of people you face at tournaments. Beating them is possible. The list is only part of the fight. I do not care if they bring the cheesiest cheese that ever cheesed, I will still take them on and I will still win. Also, some people, including me, derive their fun from making strong lists. Besides, 'this unit is bad against good lists, because the list is good' is a bad argument. You need to analyze the merits and drawbacks and then apply them to the lists you are most likely to face in any given meta.

 

 

Tournaments have nothing to do with this conversation.

 

As I said there is a difference between the highly competitive lists and the kid whose favorite part of summer camp was clubbing baby seals.

There are lists out there that can win consistantly, yet have not sacrificed thier soul to do so.

Then there are other lists and players that feel... well I think this quote sums it up best.

 

"It is not enough for me to simply win, all other must fail."

 

But there is also a generational difference in gamers.

The older generation grew up on games that tought tactics and stratagy, the ability to bluff and the ability to problem solve.

They brought this knowledge and experence into table top gaming... and faced a younger crowd that did not have that knowledge, because the grew up on video games that emphasized cordination and pattern recognition.

This younger crowd did not walk away from this experence with an understanding of tactics and stratagy, they walked away with a desire to inflict upon others the humilation that they experenced.

 

This isn't about you or your ability to make a strong list.

We all have ideas about how to make a strong list, it is about the spirit with which that list is played.

 

Was the older generation trying to humiliate the younger generation in my example?

I don't think they were, they were just caplitlizing upon the inexperence of thier opponent.

Were they to play again with similar lists, the younger player more than likely would not fall for the same trick, because they would start to see the pattern.

 

I do think that the younger player learned the wrong lesson from the experence.

They didn't notice what the people that beat them had in common, just the severity with which they were beaten.

 

The "poor spirit" that I am talking about is the person that sees that the new guy across the table only brought autocannons (S7) vs his list of 5 landraiders and doesn't say anything, just proceeds to curb stomp the kid.

The 5 landraider list isn't the problem... unless you built the list specifically to face that kids autocannon list.

 

When the 4th edition codex came out, I went undefeated for 8 months playing 2-3 games a week.

As early as the 2nd or 3rd week after the release, I started helping my opponents craft their list specifically to beat mine.

Even doing that it still took 8 months before someone came up with a list, and was lucky enough to win.

And even that list I beat the following day.

 

Like I said it is about the person's spirit, not specifically the list they bring or if they happen to play in tournaments.

[SvenONE]

I think a pure RW will be awesome, we still need to see the rules on ICs taking Space Marine Bikes though.  

 

I think if you run the RW Detachment with Sammael, using your 2 FA slots as RWBKs, or Attack Bike Squads.  You can fill the rest of your list out with Ravenwing Attack Squadron Formations and Ravenwing Support Squadrons.  The old battleforce was soooooo much better.  6 Bikes, a Speeder, AB, and a TON of bits for only a little more than the current one.

 

So much firepower.  I have to go back and review my RW lists from 6th, but Ill certainly adapt one.

[depthcharge12]

Here's an 1850 point list idea for you (stolen from my own list lol):

 

My all Ravenwing plus 3 detachments craziness:

 

1850 points - Ravenwing primary organization

 

HQ

Sammael 200

 

Elites

Ravenwing Command Squad (6) 250

+ Apothecary

 

Fast Attack

Ravenwing BKs (3) 120

 

RWBKs (3) 120

 

Dark shroud 80

 

 

Ravenwing Silence Squad

 

2 Nephilum 345

+ 1 w/lascannon

 

1 Dark Talon 160

 

 

RW Strike Squad

 

6 RW bikers 180

+ 2 grav guns

 

1 Land Speeder 75

+ TML

 

 

RW Support Squad

 

1 LSV 135

+ assault cannon

 

3 Landspeeders 185

+ 1 with TML, 2 with 2 HBs

 

 

Yo dawg, I heard you like detachments...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

In any game that includes Necrons armour 14 means nothing and 2HP with only a 4+ save to protect them is too fragile. At least on his jetbike Sammael can hide in a squad and gain the extra protection an apothecary provides. Grav guns also glance on sixes.

 

That has nothing to do with the opponent fielding a cutthroat list, but the fact that armour value is very situational and seldom valuable.

[ValourousHeart]

In any game that includes Necrons armour 14 means nothing and 2HP with only a 4+ save to protect them is too fragile. At least on his jetbike Sammael can hide in a squad and gain the extra protection an apothecary provides. Grav guns also glance on sixes.

 

That has nothing to do with the opponent fielding a cutthroat list, but the fact that armour value is very situational and seldom valuable.

But you are add 300+ to make him more survivable... do I get those points too?

All of which can be wounded by S3 weapons, forget Necrons, the jetbike can die to flashlights.

I have to ask, have you actually used the landspeeder?

Because if you had, and if you were using him correctly, you never have to worry about people shooting at him.

 

I'm going to let you in on a little secret, you can't just swap the jetbike for the landspeeder and expect him to work.

Just like you have to tailor your list for the Jebike by bringing babysitters, I mean black knights, you have to tailor your list for the speeder and bring lots of vehicles.

 

Ah forget it... come to Denton and I'll show you how it works.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ VH - Now you are trying to force your opinion onto people. Consider that everyone needs to make his own picture about it. You have done your part well and brought your points across. Why press the matter when people disagree? You have your view and they have theirs.

 

I have used it before and it never died with me, but it was never that much of a threat either. I find I get more mileage from S4 AP2 melee than his 7 TL shots when hunting dedicated scoring or MSU units. In this codex I think I will run him completely solo without support and use his warlord trait to reach enemy MSU bikes or cover campers and rip them a new one. He can start the game in reach of the DS to get his 2+ re-rollable. I find solo HQs very annoying to deal with because you want to kill him since he is taking your army apart one by one, but you do not want to dedicate so much shooting to one model when you have Black Knights or similar breathing down your neck.

[ValourousHeart]

@ VH - Now you are trying to force your opinion onto people. Consider that everyone needs to make his own picture about it. You have done your part well and brought your points across. Why press the matter when people disagree? You have your view and they have theirs.

 

I have used it before and it never died with me, but it was never that much of a threat either. I find I get more mileage from S4 AP2 melee than his 7 TL shots when hunting dedicated scoring or MSU units. In this codex I think I will run him completely solo without support and use his warlord trait to reach enemy MSU bikes or cover campers and rip them a new one. He can start the game in reach of the DS to get his 2+ re-rollable. I find solo HQs very annoying to deal with because you want to kill him since he is taking your army apart one by one, but you do not want to dedicate so much shooting to one model when you have Black Knights or similar breathing down your neck.

I know you are right. But the way I see it is that people are coming on to this forum looking for help. So for someone with no personal experence using a unit or army comes in and states his opinion as fact, well that does not sound like help to me.

 

That is just his opinion based on nothing, probably just hearsay. The worst part is that it is all circular, noone remembers who said it first, but everyone is repeating it.... I saw it on the internet, it must be true.

 

The problem is that there are a lot of times where I hear something that contradicts my experence. I feel it is important to point that they have no personal experence with this and are just regurgitating someone elses opinion.

 

Persoanlly I think terminators are a really weak unit. But I also haven't played them since 3rd edition. So is it right for me to jump in to every DW topic and tell people that TDA units suck?

[Liberame]

Not a big fan of Sableclaw myself though I want to test gun out again now that he had psuedo vector strike. Just worried that will get me into compromising situations where I'm too close and be charged. At least as a jetbike I can fight back and then hit and run out for more mobility. Also 360 degree firing arc on jetbike

[Freman Bloodglaive]

My opinions are my own, based on the ability to understand the weakness of a vehicle with only two hull points whose effective range is only 24", the range of gauss rifles, or within easy reach of the common melta or grav platforms. Giving the model an extra 300 points means nothing as it can't join other units and has to rely on its own durability. The best that can be hoped for is to obstruct line of sight to it, but because it's not an Eldar "jump, shoot, jump" model if it can't be seen to be shot, it can't shoot either. Mind you, a heavy bolter and assault cannon are no more threatening than a normal land speeder Tornado that you pay less than half the points for.

 

Sammael's speeder pays a lot of points for its durability but 40k is increasingly turning into a game where durability is irrelevant. The important criteria is the ability to dish out damage and to be frank, neither Sammael incarnation is particularly killy for his points value.

 

As for anecdotes about the speeder being useful, that is irrelevant without understanding the meta it's being played in. Rating Land Speeders against Tactical Marines? Who plays with Tactical Marines? For the same points as a full sized Tactical Squad in a Rhino Space Marines can get two bike squads with grav guns who can dish out better damage, cover more territory, and aren't reduced to foot slogging when their ride gets popped. Bolters don't concern any player today. Dark Angels with the Banner of Devastation kept them competitive longer than anyone else did, but that is gone now. Special weapon concentration is the Marine strength now.