Are the super-transports all they're cracked up to be?

[LostAlone]

So I got into an argument with some people about the 'super-transports' that are around in the HH era, specifically I wasn't really impressed by the Dracosan rules, although a lot of it translates to the Spartan too. I figured I'd open a thread over hear to get some more opinions. I'm not really a competitive HH player (all the games I play really just fluffy/fun games not using competitive lists) so I haven't really seen these guys in action so I'm willing to admit I might be wrong but...

 

Are these vehicles even really that good?

 

I mean, I see what they are. Very survivable. But...

 

As I flip through the HH books I see all kinds of things that seem to be tailor made for turning a Spartan into a pile of junk. Things like the Cerberus and the Fellblade and Typhon and the Falchion are right there and pretty much any of those can punch a massive hole into either a Spartan or a Dracosan, basically just ignoring both the Flare Shield and Armoured Ceremite. Even outside of these super heavy monsters, the Sicaran Venator and the new laser-battery Vindicator (or even the vanilla Vindi) seem so hard to turn down if you know Spartans are around.

 

Do people just not take these kind of units or is it a points limit thing or what? With all the cool and exotic vehicles around it seems really strange that people just don't have a plan to handle any rogue super-heavies or what have you.

 

Does their lack of protection against ordinance and armourbane (and Lascannons) really not matter all that much? It definitely rankles at me to see a 300+ point tank carrying 300+ points of terminators (and maybe 400 points of Angron) being put into one basket when Volcano cannons etc are just a part of the standard armory.

 

Clearly if you have a reasonable knowledge that you won't see that kind of opponent then these are some nasty vehicles and almost impossible to handle but if you can list tailor, surely other people can too? And in fact, since these big anti-spartan guns are also pretty much anti-everything guns (5" template with AP1 for example...) they seem to have the upper hand, not selling out their army's effectiveness to have some game against big transports.

 

Like I say, I'm totally open to the idea that I'm wrong on this. I'm not likely to ever play more competitive HH games, because my group just doesn't roll that way; I just kinda want to understand what everyone has their knickers in a twist about. I still really feel the Dracosan is horrendously overrated, definitely not worth the kind of glowing constant praise my friends were talking about it with. The sheer cost and the lack of anything really nasty to transport makes it feel very mediocre to me. The Spartan I can respect as a vehicle (since it can carry some really nasty stuff at least) but it still feels like they get disproportionate amounts of praise and people talk about them like being meltaimmune makes them invincible. 

 

Anyway - Opinions please! Do you feel spartans are over-rated? Under-rated? Would you still take one if you knew you opponent was bringing a tank hunter LoW or stacking up on ordinance? 

[disease]

I think that you are forgetting that in a more competitive setting you are less likely to see the falchion, Cerberus, etc... For the very same reason - that they too are vulnerable to high strength low Ap fire, and they are huge points sinks (and use up the hotly contested LOW slot) for what is effectively a one trick pony. Other choices are more point efficient.

We must also consider that in a competitive setting, if is unlikely you will see just one dracosan or Spartan. One is a distraction that can be dealt with by the methods you have named. Two or three thundering toward you is overwhelming.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Cerberus are underpowered for their points. Fellblades aren't as good against armour as Armourbane likes to sound like it is; despite high pen chance, it is still usually only a single AP2 shot; ie destroys on a 6+ only. Typhon sucks, it is S8 vs AV14 so its AP1 is wasted unless you can flank it. And even then, you need to roll a 5+/5+ to kill it and is better served killing what comes out. Vindicator has same problems, must flank or it is worthless and when it does, ap2 is poor armour killing potential.

 

Falchion is just accurate Strength D. Unless it rolls a 6, the Spartan survives.

 

Dracosan is filthy cheap. Who cares if it dies? Spartan has a single role, and that is to charge fast as possible into enemy lines, flat outting turn 1, and delivering a hammer unit into enemy lines. If you aren't doing that, why are you taking a Spartan in the first place? If you can kill it after then, so what? You have 10 T5 IFist Terminators, Firedrakes, Deathshroud, Lernaeans, or Butchers or even 20 Murderface Marines chewing on your units.

 

You are missing Graviton in your list as well. Graviton has haywire, which is Destroyer-lite, basically. It is available cheap as well, 65-75pts for the most capable access using the least competitive slots (elites/f ast attack).

[Marshal Loss]

The Spartan deserves all the praise it gets. You have a LR vehicle with a 25 man capacity with quad lascannons, a flare shield and melta immunity for just over 300 points. 9 times out of 10 it will deliver its payload successfully. Additionally, out of those options you listed that can destroy a Spartan, take into account how quickly they can do so, and their points total relative to the tank they're shooting at.

 

There are plenty of ways to kill a Spartan. However, there are very few reliable and fast ways to kill a Spartan.

[xera32]

The Spartan deserves all the praise it gets. You have a LR vehicle with a 25 man capacity with quad lascannons, a flare shield and melta immunity for just over 300 points. 9 times out of 10 it will deliver its payload successfully. Additionally, out of those options you listed that can destroy a Spartan, take into account how quickly they can do so, and their points total relative to the tank they're shooting at.

 

There are plenty of ways to kill a Spartan. However, there are very few reliable and fast ways to kill a Spartan.

How quickly they can do it? 6 graviton cannons should do it in 1 turn, 2 if they are deployed poorly. 3 laser destroyers will do it 25% of the time if they are shooting the sides (6 will do it ~60% of the time), 5 castellax with darkfire cannons and tank hunt in the side does it ~80% of the time. Spartans aren't hard to kill, if you dedicate ~ 900 points to AT you can kil a spartan a turn (or a knight, or a warhound).

 

The real problem is when there is a spartan and a typhoon, or 3 knights, or 2 spartans. The saying I saw and like to use now is "1 is a target, 2 is a tactic, 3 is a strategy".

[helterskelter]

There's the always the suicidal option of using something fast, charging the spartan in the sides or peach and slapping an armourbane melta bomb on there. If you were feeling particularly saucey you could have a disposable character with a combat augment array to fly over and slap it on hoping to hit, penetrate, then auto 6 on the chart roll for victory. This is also when you have your cunningly deployed mor Deythan lined up to deck whatever comes out next turn

[Slips]

 

 

The Spartan deserves all the praise it gets. You have a LR vehicle with a 25 man capacity with quad lascannons, a flare shield and melta immunity for just over 300 points. 9 times out of 10 it will deliver its payload successfully. Additionally, out of those options you listed that can destroy a Spartan, take into account how quickly they can do so, and their points total relative to the tank they're shooting at.

 

There are plenty of ways to kill a Spartan. However, there are very few reliable and fast ways to kill a Spartan.

How quickly they can do it? 6 graviton cannons should do it in 1 turn, 2 if they are deployed poorly. 3 laser destroyers will do it 25% of the time if they are shooting the sides (6 will do it ~60% of the time), 5 castellax with darkfire cannons and tank hunt in the side does it ~80% of the time. Spartans aren't hard to kill, if you dedicate ~ 900 points to AT you can kil a spartan a turn (or a knight, or a warhound).

 

The real problem is when there is a spartan and a typhoon, or 3 knights, or 2 spartans. The saying I saw and like to use now is "1 is a target, 2 is a tactic, 3 is a strategy".

Heres the thing though: how much do 6 Graviton Rapiers cost?

 

to swap from the Heavy Bolter, its +35 per rapier not to mention the base cost.

[Marshal Loss]

The Spartan deserves all the praise it gets. You have a LR vehicle with a 25 man capacity with quad lascannons, a flare shield and melta immunity for just over 300 points. 9 times out of 10 it will deliver its payload successfully. Additionally, out of those options you listed that can destroy a Spartan, take into account how quickly they can do so, and their points total relative to the tank they're shooting at.

There are plenty of ways to kill a Spartan. However, there are very few reliable and fast ways to kill a Spartan.

How quickly they can do it? 6 graviton cannons should do it in 1 turn, 2 if they are deployed poorly. 3 laser destroyers will do it 25% of the time if they are shooting the sides (6 will do it ~60% of the time), 5 castellax with darkfire cannons and tank hunt in the side does it ~80% of the time. Spartans aren't hard to kill, if you dedicate ~ 900 points to AT you can kil a spartan a turn (or a knight, or a warhound).

The real problem is when there is a spartan and a typhoon, or 3 knights, or 2 spartans. The saying I saw and like to use now is "1 is a target, 2 is a tactic, 3 is a strategy".

Well, that's 450 pts of highly specialised anti-tank straight off the bat for Gravitons, the only extremely reliable option listed, even more in the case of the Castellax. I did say there were very few fast & reliable ways, not none at all. The Castellax will usually require a specialised mode of deployment to get themselves into that position to start with, because nobody is going to be stupid enough to let a Spartan offer its flank to a giant unit of Castellax (which is over 500 points for 5 with darkfires, + the cost of the Praevian/FL). Half of these work in certain situations, and when facing down a Spartan with a huge deathstar you want reliability.

I don't use a gunline army so Spartans et al aren't big issues for me generally as I have chainfists in eagles/dreadclaws to work with, mitigation is often the best course of action IMO.

Gravitons are great though, I'm surprised more players don't use them. I agree with you on armour saturation though

[xera32]

 

 

The Spartan deserves all the praise it gets. You have a LR vehicle with a 25 man capacity with quad lascannons, a flare shield and melta immunity for just over 300 points. 9 times out of 10 it will deliver its payload successfully. Additionally, out of those options you listed that can destroy a Spartan, take into account how quickly they can do so, and their points total relative to the tank they're shooting at.

 

There are plenty of ways to kill a Spartan. However, there are very few reliable and fast ways to kill a Spartan.

 

How quickly they can do it? 6 graviton cannons should do it in 1 turn, 2 if they are deployed poorly. 3 laser destroyers will do it 25% of the time if they are shooting the sides (6 will do it ~60% of the time), 5 castellax with darkfire cannons and tank hunt in the side does it ~80% of the time. Spartans aren't hard to kill, if you dedicate ~ 900 points to AT you can kil a spartan a turn (or a knight, or a warhound).

The real problem is when there is a spartan and a typhoon, or 3 knights, or 2 spartans. The saying I saw and like to use now is "1 is a target, 2 is a tactic, 3 is a strategy".

 

Well, that's 450 pts of highly specialised anti-tank straight off the bat for Gravitons, the only extremely reliable option listed, even more in the case of the Castellax. I did say there were very few fast & reliable ways, not none at all.  The Castellax will usually require a specialised mode of deployment to get themselves into that position to start with, because nobody is going to be stupid enough to let a Spartan offer its flank to a giant unit of Castellax (which is over 500 points for 5 with darkfires, + the cost of the Praevian/FL). Half of these work in certain situations, and when facing down a Spartan with a huge deathstar you want reliability.

 

I don't use a gunline army so Spartans et al aren't big issues for me generally as I have chainfists in eagles/dreadclaws to work with, mitigation is often the best course of action IMO.

 

Gravitons are great though, I'm surprised more players don't use them. I agree with you on armour saturation though :)

Which is why i said 900 points of dedicated tank, when the spartan needs to decide between showing its flank to laser destroyers or the castellax, it will have a problem. 1 spartan shouldn't be hard to deal with at 2k+.

[Slips]

At 3k+, Sure. But below that? Not so simple. Especially when you consider that you're investing 500+ Points to deal with a 300 Point tank.

 

It'd be pretty easy to block those shots by shoving some Rhinos on those flanks and taking a Turn of Shooting destined for the Spartan onto them instead. It means that my Spartan-Riding CC Unit is 1 Turn closer to you and the Spartan Doing its job.

 

Plan +/- Thwarted/Delayed by a Single 35 Point Tank.

 

Theres also table Layout to Consider. IF you so much as have a Narrow "Street" Set up, you can be damn sure that you're not getting side shots on that Spartan.

[Marshal Loss]

The Spartan deserves all the praise it gets. You have a LR vehicle with a 25 man capacity with quad lascannons, a flare shield and melta immunity for just over 300 points. 9 times out of 10 it will deliver its payload successfully. Additionally, out of those options you listed that can destroy a Spartan, take into account how quickly they can do so, and their points total relative to the tank they're shooting at.

There are plenty of ways to kill a Spartan. However, there are very few reliable and fast ways to kill a Spartan.

How quickly they can do it? 6 graviton cannons should do it in 1 turn, 2 if they are deployed poorly. 3 laser destroyers will do it 25% of the time if they are shooting the sides (6 will do it ~60% of the time), 5 castellax with darkfire cannons and tank hunt in the side does it ~80% of the time. Spartans aren't hard to kill, if you dedicate ~ 900 points to AT you can kil a spartan a turn (or a knight, or a warhound).

The real problem is when there is a spartan and a typhoon, or 3 knights, or 2 spartans. The saying I saw and like to use now is "1 is a target, 2 is a tactic, 3 is a strategy".

Well, that's 450 pts of highly specialised anti-tank straight off the bat for Gravitons, the only extremely reliable option listed, even more in the case of the Castellax. I did say there were very few fast & reliable ways, not none at all. The Castellax will usually require a specialised mode of deployment to get themselves into that position to start with, because nobody is going to be stupid enough to let a Spartan offer its flank to a giant unit of Castellax (which is over 500 points for 5 with darkfires, + the cost of the Praevian/FL). Half of these work in certain situations, and when facing down a Spartan with a huge deathstar you want reliability.

I don't use a gunline army so Spartans et al aren't big issues for me generally as I have chainfists in eagles/dreadclaws to work with, mitigation is often the best course of action IMO.

Gravitons are great though, I'm surprised more players don't use them. I agree with you on armour saturation though

Which is why i said 900 points of dedicated tank, when the spartan needs to decide between showing its flank to laser destroyers or the castellax, it will have a problem. 1 spartan shouldn't be hard to deal with at 2k+.

Yes, 900 points of dedicated anti-tank. That is a colossal investment, & not once did you mention the size of game. Fitting 900 points of anti-tank in order to shut down a 300 point tank in a 2k game, for example, simply demonstrates how strong the Spartan is in the first place. And the bigger the game gets, the more viable threats exist.

As Slipstreams said also, you are making a lot of assumptions about layout also.

[LostAlone]

At 3k+, Sure. But below that? Not so simple. Especially when you consider that you're investing 500+ Points to deal with a 300 Point tank.

 

It'd be pretty easy to block those shots by shoving some Rhinos on those flanks and taking a Turn of Shooting destined for the Spartan onto them instead. It means that my Spartan-Riding CC Unit is 1 Turn closer to you and the Spartan Doing its job.

 

Plan +/- Thwarted/Delayed by a Single 35 Point Tank.

 

Theres also table Layout to Consider. IF you so much as have a Narrow "Street" Set up, you can be damn sure that you're not getting side shots on that Spartan.

 

For me at least it doesn't feel like that 500ish points is somehow wasted just because a Spartan didn't show up or is kept out of LOS from it. Big nasty death cannons will still knock chunks out literally anything that you point them at. Anything that you vaporize is good to vaporize even if it's not perfect.

 

As for the relative effectiveness of anti-armor firepower, does that still count for Sicarans and Vindis and large quantities of lascannons? I can see why single pens aren't enough to just destroy a Spartan in one shot but everything on the chart barring 'shaken' looks pretty good for my money - stopping it for one turn or permanently does rather limit it's ongoing threat to your battle plan. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

At 3k+, Sure. But below that? Not so simple. Especially when you consider that you're investing 500+ Points to deal with a 300 Point tank.

 

It'd be pretty easy to block those shots by shoving some Rhinos on those flanks and taking a Turn of Shooting destined for the Spartan onto them instead. It means that my Spartan-Riding CC Unit is 1 Turn closer to you and the Spartan Doing its job.

 

Plan +/- Thwarted/Delayed by a Single 35 Point Tank.

 

Theres also table Layout to Consider. IF you so much as have a Narrow "Street" Set up, you can be damn sure that you're not getting side shots on that Spartan.

450pts to deal with 350pts of tank, 160pts+ of beatstick and 250pts+ of Assault Kill Squad.

 

You are taking out their transport, leaving an (frequently slow and purpsoseful) assaut squad without protection against medium strength rending/low ap kits like Volkite, Scorpius, Plasma, stuck in difficult dangerous terrain. An army sinking 700pts or more into suck 'linebreaker' units is begging for a Grav Spam to kill it.

 

Which is where dual phobos and min term squads kitted for shooting come in. 4 hp reqires 2 Grav rapier squads to kill it, and comes to 1100 for 2. If they are killed, they are a) not snp and b) have combi weapons when they get close, and c) still kill enemy MEQ'S easily.