30k Marines, 40k Weapons?

[Viridia]

So, I've been pondering something ever since I started drawing up my plans for a 30k Imperial Fists army. I'm not a fan of paying a premium for a pack of ten meltaguns or ten heavy bolters if I really only needed one or two of each item, and individual bits sellers, though invaluable, aren't much better in terms of the price. At the same time, I'm looking to keep what third-party bits and models I use to a minimum so that it's still clearly an Astartes army. But to me, the only reasonable option for this is to crack open my 40k era bitzbox. So my questions to you all;

 

Is it offputting to see someone mixing occasional 40k weapons into a 30k army?

Have you mixed some 40k parts into a 30k army, and did you think it looks quite fitting?

 

[demio]

Personally no I haven't and won't because it would drive my OCD crazy. It wouldn't bother me if someone else did either. You could argue the fact that 40k weapons are around at the time of the Heresy and are just models produced by different forgeworlds.

[GrandMagnus]

I dont mind at all, I have a couple of MK IV marines on my table right now which are using the Godwyn pattern bolters and Im seriously considering buying 20 of them from Ebay simply because the FW patterns are so damn expensive.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, it really isn't much to argue. 40K weapons are 30K weapons that were the easiest to maintain and replicate, in part and/or in whole.

 

So if anyone does have a problem, they're weird.

[Marshal Rohr]

I didn't like the idea of Godwyn bolters on Heresy models at all for the longest time.

 

 

Until I saw Heinrich's Blood Angels. Now I'm collecting Sternguard bolters left and right.

[Stofficus]

The weapons are probably the easiest thing to justify - and really I don't have an issue with any source of models to get people into 30k (I'm working on building a community out of my store's disenfranchised 40k crowd, and telling them they can use 40k marines/guard/admech/whatever works provided they're wysiwyg does wonders for enthusiasm). 

For purity's standpoint, some Legions are easier to justify throwing 40k kit on to; Alpha Legion owing to their own controlled means of production and invented/copied/modified designs, Imperial Fists due to, in old fluff, being the first recipients of Mk VII armour and the next generation of gear from Mars prior to the Siege of Terra (who knows if that'll stay true) and, if one factors in the Scouring, the Ultramarines being the priority force post-Terra. 

Ultimately though, wargear shouldn't matter; the Tigrus pattern gear is not radically different from the various 40k versions, and the rulebooks more or less encourage diversifying and customizing your forces. Hell, the Imperial Militia list is basically a giant neon sign of "Hey, Guard players, come join the party - your army works here, and it's like the awesome 4th edition one you lot are still pining for." If anyone gets in a huff because of some Godwyn bolters, they're clearly a little off. Come up with a theme and run with it, and if you really need to justify 40k-era kits, just go for a Scouring/Siege of Terra theme. 

[Viridia]

Some interesting responses there guys, thanks, especially the one about 40k gear being easy-maintenance 30k gear. I must admit, I hadn't realised that Mk VII armour was quite so old, I'd always thought that it was very much a post-Scouring design at the earliest. Still, makes me feel a bit better giving my standard bearer a VII-pattern arm with his banner.

[Carlson793]

, the bulk of my Tac Squads are 2nd Ed monopose bolter marines. They don't have the 30K aesthetic, but it's allowed me to bulk out those troop slots quickly and cheaply, leaving my Mk III armour for Special/Heavy Weapons and Special Units.

http://www.sprubitz.co.uk/ekmps/shops/sprubitz/images/tactical-space-marine-miniature-from-the-out-of-print-warhammer-40k-2nd-edition-1993-oop-x1-239-p%5Bekm%5D1000x755%5Bekm%5D.jpg

[apologist]

If anything, I think scattering in a few non-FW bits can add to the look of the army, particularly for less well-supplied and distant armies, or those recovering and rebuilding after a tough campaign.

 

Part of the appeal of 40k is that it's virtually stagnant in terms of scientific progress or development, so almost every weapon in 40k would have been present in 30k. There are some rare specific examples that were developed later, but even these can be glossed should you so desire, by saying that it's an early variant, an artificer-wrought example, or simply an STC pattern that got lost in the Heresy and rediscovered later.

 

Forge World have included lots of patterns in their artwork. I don't think that there are many hard-and-fast rules with FW's naming scheme when it comes to the OOP models, but generally, 'Mars' seems to indicate the current plastics, 'Mars-Proteus' any older plastics that have been superseded. In particular, Mars-Proteus pattern seems to be a nod to the veterans, as these designs tend to be those from Rogue Trader that haven't had an updated from FW :)

 

Some specific examples:

• Betrayal: p19 – The 'Legiones Astartes Wargear: Early Crusade era' image pictures the plastic chainsword, labelled ''Thunder Edge' pattern', and the plastic combat knife is labelled 'Sol Pattern' (there are also some grenades and bombs on the same page which you might find relevant).
• Massacre: p17 – 'Legiones Astartes heavy Support Wargear: Later Great Crusade era' image pictures 'Sol Militaris' pattern heavy weapons, which are the FW shoulder-mounted ones. Given their similarity to the 2nd ed heavy weapons, you might call the older metals ones 'Sol Pattern' or 'Mars Proteus'.
• Massacre: p124 – This shows a combi-boltgun that looks very similar to the plastic boltgun;  labelled 'Ultima pattern combi-flamer'.

So, if you want a 'canon' answer, I'd suggest you call plastic weapons that don't have a specific name the 'Sol', 'Mars' or 'Ultima' pattern. 

[The Pounder]

I agree with everyone else. I always use a mix of parts and like how they turn out.

At the end of the day it's your toy soldiers so it's up to you how you go about building your force.

[DuskRaider]

I use some 40K weaponry here and there to show the various patterns used by even a single Legion. I also use 40K powercells (backpacks) on my 30K Death Guard, in particular the Chaos ones, as these are shown in Betrayal as Anvilus Pattern Powercells. One of those things that just adds a little more character to the army.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Given my lack of 'toy soldier's budget I'm having to convert and play around with mostly 40k models.

I try to get a heresy ascetic but with about 7k of both Scars and Wolves, I am not going down wholesale forgeworld replacement!

[DuskRaider]

I think the important thing is that your able to play. I focus on the authenticity and "historical" accuracy of my Legion, mainly because I have time in the world to model and paint, but gaming is few and far between due to having three kids. If it gets you out and onto the field (and isn't cardboard cutouts or something horrible), do it.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I prefer some of the 40K weapons. The the over the shoulder heavy weapons in particular look ridiculous, and I've never been a fan of the old flamers. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I agree with Hesh about the shoulder-slung look being ridiculous.

 

For bolters it really depends on the armour mark you're using. Godwyn bolters look kind of odd with mk II and III, while umbra ferrox looks good on just about everything

[Knight of the Raven]

I didn't like the idea of Godwyn bolters on Heresy models at all for the longest time.

 

 

Until I saw Heinrich's Blood Angels. Now I'm collecting Sternguard bolters left and right.

Don't forget to get sternguard arms if you plan to use the drum and box magazines, for they're too thick for tactical arms.

 

Edit: I just tried to fit these bolters on said arms and I still had to cut plastic off both the forearms and the hands. Either the kit is smarter than me, I can't glue straight to save my life or there's an issue with the design.

[Atia]

yep, do it^^ basically, most of the 40k range was there in 30k, be it tanks (mars pattern) or weapons^^ 

[Kriegriss]

I use the odd 40k weapon in 30k but o have an easy out my IF force is based around the siege of terra so I can say that just stole the newest blingyest loot when Sigismund and Diaz "Reprovisioned" on Mars I like the look of GODWYN pattern bolters especially ones from the templar upgrade kits. I am also partial to many of the special weapons. the 30k rocket launchers look like giant tuna or dolphins be slung over marine shoulders lol but its a preferance thing. Anyone who sais "you're bolters are not 30k specific so you can't use them" is probly no fun to play with anyways there you're models bro do what you want

[The Prodigal Legionary]

Has there ever been a tutorial for converting regular bolters into Heresy designs? I've found some good ones for armour but bolters are the sticking point. As to the rest I personally think shoulder-mounted looks quite stupid. It's never made clear when the 'modern' designs came in but given what we know about the Imperium's attitude to technological development it seems likely that FW's sticking to their own weapons is more a marketing thing than a historical thing.

[Slips]

Has there ever been a tutorial for converting regular bolters into Heresy designs? I've found some good ones for armour but bolters are the sticking point. As to the rest I personally think shoulder-mounted looks quite stupid. It's never made clear when the 'modern' designs came in but given what we know about the Imperium's attitude to technological development it seems likely that FW's sticking to their own weapons is more a marketing thing than a historical thing.

The Attitude towards technology only came about long after the Horus Heresy. Before that point, the Imperium was all about technological advancement - especially since the AdMech couldnt really hide anything from anyone with the Emperor around and all. That, and it was one of the main sticking points of the Imperial Truth.

[Ishagu]

Unfortunately my OCD prevents me from mixing 40k equipment into my Heresy army.

It just means I'm putting it together a bit more slowly due to the extra expense, but I expect I'll be very satisfied once finished...

[KJB]

Unfortunately my OCD prevents me from mixing 40k equipment into my Heresy army.

It just means I'm putting it together a bit more slowly due to the extra expense, but I expect I'll be very satisfied once finished...

 

I share your pain

[apologist]

[...]It's never made clear when the 'modern' designs came in but given what we know about the Imperium's attitude to technological development it seems likely that FW's sticking to their own weapons is more a marketing thing than a historical thing.

The Attitude towards technology only came about long after the Horus Heresy. Before that point, the Imperium was all about technological advancement - especially since the AdMech couldnt really hide anything from anyone with the Emperor around and all. That, and it was one of the main sticking points of the Imperial Truth.

Perhaps a more nuanced view would be that the Great Crusade briefly reignited a scientific, progressive attitude towards technology, but immediately prior to that humanity in general would have been very reactionary and conservative when it came to technology. This is due to the events of the Age of Strife. We only get scattered hints and legends surrounding 'Iron Men' and 'Abominable Intelligence', but it's clear something happened that caused humanity to reject technology to at least some degree. This lost knowledge is an important theme of the universe, and the hubris of the Great Crusade-era Imperium is obvious through statements in the Horus Heresy series (e.g. the number of Shakespeare's plays).

Even the Mechanicus were more interested in gathering and hoarding knowledge for its own sake than applying or adapting it prior to the Unification Wars. The Emperor's influence – and his (general) recognition as the Omnissiah – is implied to have been the reason the Imperium began to innovate. However, the events of the Horus Heresy put paid to the dream as Mars burned and the Mechanicus reverted to hostile hoarding and preservation over innovation.

+++

Has there ever been a tutorial for converting regular bolters into Heresy designs? I've found some good ones for armour but bolters are the sticking point.

Not sure if this is any good to you, but I did find that using the modern magazine housing and magazine on the second edition boltguns (which are relatively easy and cheap to come by) gives a good effect:

Adding a longer barrel (made from plastic tubing) and shifting the magazine housing forward to mimic the Rogue Trader-era arrangement can help to make them look more distinctive, too. This approach would work on the modern boltguns as well.

Finally, if you only have modern boltguns available, you can trim away the grip area and replace it with a strip of plasticard. This can go some way to distancing the design from the standard one, and it looks less modern to our eyes, too.

Hope those help

[DimDim]

snip*

Finally, if you only have "modern boltguns" available, you can trim away the grip area and replace it with a strip of plasticard. This can go some way to distancing the design from the standard one, and it looks less modern to our eyes, too.

snip*

Hope those help

I Should just keep this picture on tab for easy access lol, its been used in this kind of convo so many times before:

BANG! Official forgeworld "artwork"(backgroundslol) showing the "modern" Boltgun on deathguard models.

And since this is the istvaan III book we can assume its been in service (or tests) since or even before the betrayal at istvaan.

You can thank me later

DimDim

[Kriegriss]

is it later yet... thank you