Dual Battle company feedback.

[Morticon]

Morticon; what would you put down as the greatest contributor to your success? The full bs Overwatch, or the free razors?

 

 

Ahoy!  The Overwatch is good, good, but doesn't seem to be the most beneficial part of it.  The list I've been playing has 5 pods in it and 5 razors - 4 of which are "heavy".  It's not that firepower that is overwhelming, but rather the tactical flexibility that this combination offers.

 

3 Pod first turn allows for one helluva alpha strike that doesn't diminish your backline that is being strongly supported by all those razors.  I dont find that the enemy dies to a barrage of firepower put down by the the free razors, but rather that every little bit helps to get every marine unit contributing as much as possible.  

This is like the "ultimate" list for my playstyle.  It's exactly how I prefer to play my BA; multiple units with synergising abilities rather than one uber unit supported by other nothings.  

 

So, in essence, id say it's not the guns on the razors or the overwatch skill, but rather the fact that because you are allowed 400+ points free you can have much more contributing to the overall tactics of your army.  

 

While I dont believe this is the most "broken" thing GW has every released, I do think its maybe the most unfair.  

Obsec is a big deal too.  Your opponents can't just ignore those units, they have to deal with them.  I have nowhere near the models to run this and I likely won't before the next codex drops.  It does look like fun though.

HUGE deal- HUGE.  ObjSec on everything is just insane.  (And its really, really, really fun to play)

I'd like to see someone run the DA Battle Company against the Space Marine Battle Company.

 

I played the SM one too, after my first go with the DA.  (Played DA 4 times now and SM once) - I feel the SM is far more versatile, but the DA you can get much more in on account of the lower Aux tax.  

 

Each army vs the other would be a great battle thats for sure!!!

[MithrilForge]

5 man squads and razorbacks ...i'm glad i don't play tourneys anymore....

Mithril

[Morticon]

5 man squads and razorbacks ...i'm glad i don't play tourneys anymore....

Mithril

To be fair, the 5man razor squads have been a thing for a long, long time now thanks to BA and their fast razors, it's just now that these razors are free that it makes good sense.

[Stormxlr]

I'm assuming the razorbacks even though bs4 overwatch is extremely good (in essence a second shooting phase). A free razorback + 20 points gives you a three hull point tllc! A mobile tllc weapons platform for 20 points ouch!!!!

I dont understand why people consider extra overwatch to be such a big boon, most armies never even go in Assault. Its extremely rare to use it.

Guard, Tau, Eldar, Necrons wont go into assault so much or at all. Only Necron unit to ever assault are wraith and then you are wounding on 5+ with bolters. 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

I'm assuming the razorbacks even though bs4 overwatch is extremely good (in essence a second shooting phase). A free razorback + 20 points gives you a three hull point tllc! A mobile tllc weapons platform for 20 points ouch!!!!

I dont understand why people consider extra overwatch to be such a big boon, most armies never even go in Assault. Its extremely rare to use it.

Guard, Tau, Eldar, Necrons wont go into assault so much at all. Only Necron unit to ever assault are wraith and then you are wounding on 5+ with bolters. 

 

It's a boon because it's free and becomes better in a demi company and awesome in a battle company.

Sure this is a shooting edition but assaults do happen, and when they do, better overwatch can swing things in our favour.

There are still orks and Nids around to make good use of overwatch.. :D

[WellSpokenMan]

 

I'm assuming the razorbacks even though bs4 overwatch is extremely good (in essence a second shooting phase). A free razorback + 20 points gives you a three hull point tllc! A mobile tllc weapons platform for 20 points ouch!!!!

I dont understand why people consider extra overwatch to be such a big boon, most armies never even go in Assault. Its extremely rare to use it.

Guard, Tau, Eldar, Necrons wont go into assault so much at all. Only Necron unit to ever assault are wraith and then you are wounding on 5+ with bolters. 

 

Guard and Orks assault all the time to tarpit, but that tactic is not very effective when you can't keep those Terrmies locked in combat because their Storm Bolters chewed you up on the charge.  Imperial Knights charge, but they will think twice before running at a Grav Cannon with an Amp.  Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Nids, and Bloodthirsters charge.  Lots of units still charge.  It's an option you denied your opponent.  Nobody is going to charge you.  It's up to you to build on that.  Yes, it is situational, but it's still good.

 

I'm getting a bit frustrated here, because I feel the general feeling has shifted from "wow this is pretty good" to "Oh man, I'm disappointed because I'm going to have to change the way I play" to "this codex sucks because we didn't get a win button."  Come on guys.  It's better than it was.  If you want to be able to play like Eldar then go buy Eldar. 

 

/my $.02

[Flam]

How do you feel about this in low points games (1000-1250pts)?

Should be with everything basic: 70x10, 90x2 and 55 for scouts is only 935 pts and then 10 razorbacks (55x10) for free. Not even the vanilla codex can do this for this cheap, because their auxiliary formation selection. I have power gaming necron player in my meta and I am all for using all my 'tools' to level the playing field with them, but against other codices that certainly does seem overpowering (for now).

Even in large points games, (if you take the razorbacks) you are essentially getting 550pt advantage non? Assuming all points costs are priced fairly...

Unless these free vehicles are necessary to keep us competitive when they update the other codices... but until then, I assume this is for more transport sales.

[Morticon]

While, I agree that Full BS overwatch is not the most versatile of boons, it's definitely that situational "stuff you!!" that tips the DA dex from being 'broadly competitive' to being 'exceptionally competitive' on account for being so damned good in that particular situation, and generally kick ass in all the others.

 

I obviously cant speak for all meta's, but I know the local tournament scene here hinges entirely on close combat.  Shooty is still, of course, fundamental and dominates the middle playing field.  But all the top players here have either a strong CC element, or a dedicated CC theme to their army.  Greyknight Dreadknights, Eldar Wraithknights, Daemonkin mauler lists, nids, orky biker lists (currently what i regard as the strongest list in the country for our meta) and even my BA tournament stuff-  all of these now suffer from this DA rule.  

 

Only thing I would disagree with Wellspokenman on is that this codex is a huge "win button".  It may not be for those that are strong adherents to Deathwing-pure, but, pretty much everything else got buffed to cray-cray level.  Ive never felt more confident of comfortable playing any other list- but, that being said i am bringing 450 points more to the table :/

 

Flam;

 

Its tough to say at that points level because i'm of the honest belief that this army is "made" by the gear you choose.  At that points level, its difficult to get the specialist weapons needed to take out the tougher things - that being said, it winds up becoming entirely about attrition - moving as much crapola onto objectives and saying "come move me off"- which is not a particularly fun/enjoyable way for either player to play i would think.

I also dont think its "necessary" to keep you guys competitive  - the options available to DA now are unreal.  

[Frater Cornelius]

Close Combat actually becomes more prevalent these days, as well as hordes. What better way to take shooty death stars out of the game than tying them up of outright murdering them in CC :D

[WellSpokenMan]

 

Only thing I would disagree with Wellspokenman on is that this codex is a huge "win button".  It may not be for those that are strong adherents to Deathwing-pure, but, pretty much everything else got buffed to cray-cray level.  Ive never felt more confident of comfortable playing any other list- but, that being said i am bringing 450 points more to the table :/

 

 

For the people with the models to field the Lion's Blade with two Demi-companies it might be close to a "win button," but you still have to contend with Space Marines being able to the same trick.  Their basic troops are better then ours due to their Chapter Tactics, even if our Aux formations are better.  For the rest of us poor people the codex is powerful, but requires a lot of  tactical and targeting decisions.  I think you can take a Ravenwing or Multi-wing list and still lose if you make bad decisions.  As opposed to Eldar's massed Scatterbikes that, before the proliferation of Grav, could just stay at max range and shoot their way to victory.  A 6th grader could win with that list.  Dark Angels players that kept playing through 6th though, should have no problems with tactical decision making.  The skills required to make a DA list work with that codex should make a player a beast with this one. 

 

Edited for grammar

[Morticon]

 

  Dark Angels players that kept playing through 6th though, should have no problems with tactical decision making though.  The skills required to make a DA list work with that codex should make a player a beast with this one. 

 

As a BA player since 1999 I feel ya on that point!  

 

Played another game today vs a faaarely different DA double demi.   Was one of the most enjoyable and exciting games ive had in years and years.  He wound up taking it in the end - in turn 5 i woulda had it, in turn 6 he had it, i woulda had it back in turn 7 - 5 objectives total, with 3 of them contested, and him removing units from the other two in turn 6!!  Was amazing, amazing game.

 

Some pivotal bad luck/good luck moments that took it though - most notably;

 

No reserves on in turn 2 :/, pods on in turn 3, and outflanking devs (strategic WLT) only in turn 4. 

Chaplain being stuck in combat with grunts for 7 or 8 combat phases.

Master (with bloody mace) wiffing his attacks and getting killed by 2 plebs.

Duffing my overwatch with 2 MM and 5GC shots vs his termy master. 

 

And then, him making around 14 rr jink saves on his bloody bikers.  I have a newfound respect for the ravenwing stuff- that reroll jink is beserk.  With the shroud....wow..

[twopounder]

 

I'm assuming the razorbacks even though bs4 overwatch is extremely good (in essence a second shooting phase). A free razorback + 20 points gives you a three hull point tllc! A mobile tllc weapons platform for 20 points ouch!!!!

I dont understand why people consider extra overwatch to be such a big boon, most armies never even go in Assault. Its extremely rare to use it.

Guard, Tau, Eldar, Necrons wont go into assault so much or at all. Only Necron unit to ever assault are wraith and then you are wounding on 5+ with bolters. 

 

 

My marines are armed with more than bolters and you're leaving out all the things that do assault - dark eldar, tyranids, blood angels, space wolves, black templars, white scars, ravenguard, orks, chaos, grey knights, and demons. Even eldar and tau have units that assault and will get chewed up doing so.

 

What's more - if you're already prepared for grim resolve, then you have enough firepower to win a shooting war. Why do you think you'll only ever shoot in the assault phase?