CAD or Demi Company?

[Berzul]

Hi everyone.

 

So, with the information already leaked and thoroughly discussed so far, I've been playing with list ideas. My main point of personal debate is of the convenience of a Demi Company over a regular CAD army.

 

Surely the benefits of the full on Battle Company over a regular CAD speak for themselves, but since that would be very hard to field unless it is a high point game (and with most of my battles being between 1000 and 1500 points so far), the Demi Company will most likely up being what most of us will play anyway (given it's point cost, which gives room to include auxiliary units better than a just a 5-man unit of scouts).

 

I've always noticed that, for the most part, players in this forum tend to focus strongly on either RW or DW, with GW having its place, but on a smaller scale and more specific approach.

 

So, now that this new formation forces us to include so many marines, the question is: Is this formation a good way to go for you? Over a CAD army or even an unbound one. Given that, these two choices, would allow for less marines and more terminators and/or bikes.

 

I personally always use a lot of greenwing, with a small deathwing or ravenwing support, so when I went down the list of the requierements I was excited (all I need to finish is my dust covered box of assault marines, which I always wanted to use, but never could find an excuse to include, over a Ravenwing Attack Squadron). 

 

I already have some lists in mind I want to try, which rely heavily on the 3 tactical squads. 

 

Does anyone feel that this formation is more competitive than a CAD or unbound army? 

Would anyone transition to a Demi Company, from your tried and true army compositions?

 

I'm very interested in your thoughts on this.

 

Thanks 

[Frater Cornelius]

Demi Company (or rather the Battle Company) is done better far better by SM (White Scars to be specific). Capitalize on your strength and play Multiwing synergy. Which usually means CAD + Formations + RW/GW Detachment or any combination of those.

[Berzul]

I haven't yet sat down to study a synergy oriented army. I have read some good posts on the forum, though. I guess my interest in the Demi Company comes from my liking of the greenwing. Part of my mind insists that I'm just using it to justify bringing in more marines xD

 

Any ideas on good synergy builds?

[march10k]

I think a demi company with the dakkapole would be pretty insane...who doesn't want 4 BS3 shots per model on overwatch?  I'm guessing the company master won't get a jump pack, and the only real use for a character in the demi company is to go with the assault squad, so I'd lean towards the chaplain, without whom the assault squad kinda sucks anyway.  Devastators are never a bad idea...so nothing in the demi company is really unwanted in my book.

 

What makes me waver is the insane limitations on stuff to go with the demi company.  The other pieces you can plug in are extremely rigid and/or expensive in their construction.  I'll probably try the redemption force in support of a demi, although the points'd be really tight at 1850.  I'll also try the hammer of caliban as lascannon spam, mars pattern land raider with three lascannon preds...not sure if I'll splurge on the sponsons, depends on points and stuff.  That would seem to make my lascannon devastators obsolete, but if the hammer can only really target one tank, maybe two, the devs have a role...or I might go grav with them...

 

In the end, though, I'll most likely go with a CAD that looks a lot like a demi company, but with a librarian as my HQ and the assault squad replaced by a crusaderload of interrogator-led knights..

[Frater Cornelius]

That is the second time you are talking about the dakka pole. It is gone. A relic of the past.

 

As for the rest, I agree. The Demi Company makes you take too much trash. WS can make good use of it by sticking 5 Devs with 2 Grav Cannons into a Rhino, scout it forward and then unleash 10 Grav shots per turn. Get two of those. Get bikes with Grav and Scout Bikes as Auxiliary. WS is good at it. They also get the UM CT on top of their own. DA get better overwatch in an edition that is about shooting, where the only viable assault units do not really care about your Bolters.

I recommend taking a look at the three detachments, CAD for Greenwing, RWSF for Ravenwing and DWSF for Deathwing. Combining those and peppering it with a few Formations if your gaming group/event allows to take more than 2-3 sources in your army.

[Ultra Magnus]

March there have been a few posts you have made recently regarding inclusion of the dakka pole. I just want to make sure you realize that our former Standards have been removed from the new dex.

 

No dakka pole. No 4X Bolter shots.

 

My DA wear hoods so you can't see them crying... :)

[SvenONE]

The Demi Company, and by extension the Lion's Blade do something a CAD can't do, and that's increase the chances of killing enemies in their own turn.  I don't think I or the rest of us have really fully realized the power of that Overwatch BS modifier, and anything that improves that is something we should be absolutely taking.

 

I don't think that CAD is completely dead though.  I think that you'll still run a CAD if you want to run a Deathwing Knights-centric list or Ravenwing Black Knights without paying a tax of an HQ or Formations.  Simply put, given the odd forced deep strike rules of the Deathwing, the only way it seems that we can do Landraider Delivered Terminators is via the cad.

 

A modest Demi Company clocks in around 900 points or so.  That's 3 full tac squads with special weapons, a CM, 10 man AM squad and Devastators.  That's before you buy any other formations to make it a Lion's blade.  Now, you can of course cheap out and go minimum 5 man squads, but you're still going to have a tad more flexibility with the CAD.  Just less bonus rules, rules that I'm afraid may not be worth passing up.

[aura_enchanted]

The Demi company is good if your going to make use of the units involved, however the problem is that your taking assault marines which aren't the greatest, I would much rather prefer taking veterans over them or a command squad, you'd make more use of them.

 

And the devestator are unfortunately being shoved down your throat in the formation because their tour heavy support if you don't take additional formations and devestators are god awful, period. In a world where a CAD can contain whirlwind squadrons, predator squadrons, and the mighty mighty deredeo and vindicator laser tank destroyer for a fraction of the cost of a vastly superior load out and statline it's hard to justify taking them. Their a unit that doesn't belong in an army that has outpaced what a devestator brings to the table. This isn't to say it doesn't have its merits however. The Demi company's rules are solid and we could certainly use solid rules in our armies current state of affairs.

 

So take the Demi company of you can employ it's rules to effect, if you weren't going to make the rules work in your army it probably isn't worth taking.

 

The CAD can and will always be the gold standard to which we hold detachments and base army formation flowcharts (or aff's as I call them). For a long time ago the CAD has had many names but every time it's been doing us a solid. And every time it's been the safe pick, I myself am sticking with the CAD because I view the Demi company as points i don't need to spend for rules I won't be using. So therefore it is irrelevant to me.

[palin2222]

I've been wondering about this since I first heard about the formations. On the one hand, I like my predator and my mortis contemptor, and can not use either of them in the Lion's Blade. On the other hand, my normal list closely resembles the make up a demi-company (aside from the assault marines) It might be worth the tax of assault marines for increased BS on overwatch.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I will try the Demi instead of the CAD. Obsec on assault squad and devastators is huge for me . Sure assault marines aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, but 5 with flamers are very cheap and with obsec they can do something good. Same goes for Devs. Now not only they sit back to provide cover fire, they also babysit an objective to boot.

CAD has it's advantages, but the Demi Company besides being new is not so expensive points wise. I can see myself doing Demi+Lib Conclave+ RWSF+ something else.  I don't actually care if WS or UM do Demi better than us. I'm playing DA so I'm used to other marines doing stuff better than us, if I went just for super-duper-efectiveness DA wouldn't be the army I chose to play.

My 2 potatoes.

[shabbadoo]

The minimum cost to field a Demi-Company is 495 points (31 models total), and for a Battle Company it is 935 points (57 models), if you chose a Scout unit as your mandatory Auxilliary. That is as cheap as you can go, and to keep the points so low you must take 5-man squads (no upgrades of any kind are included in those totals). Still, you can see the cost of a Battle Company is not prohibitve in even smaller games. if you go with a 750 point game, a Demi-Company can still be given a good amount of upgrades, and if you go with 1,000 points they may have many, plus at least one additional Formation to back them up. If you go to 1,500 points, either a Demi-Company or a Battle Company setup can be given quite a bit, including addtional Formations. And the Battle Company gets ten transports for *FREE*. Who doesn't want ten *FREE* Razorbacks for those 5-man squads? That's ten *FREE* twin-linked heavy bolters right there, with only the upgrade cost to get some of the harder hitting turret options. Add some Dreads? *FREE* Drop Pods for *EACH*. Add Company Vets? *FREE* Razorback! Add a Command Squad? *FREE* Razorback! Basically, you can get a rather large amount of *FREE* stuff. To be honest I am very much not keen on all the *FREE* stuff; especially when it can amount to 300-500 points of extra stuff, in a 1,500 point force no less, over what your enemy is fielding simply because of the Detachment that was chosen. That is pretty messed up when you think about it. Maybe people will field the Lion's Blade and the Gladius enough to eventually realize that the power armored space marines units are not so bad that they need quite so much of a boost to be a competitive choice.

All that being said, this minimal sized "Full" Battle Company could take *FREE* Drop Pods for 2 Command Squads, 2 Company Vet Squads, 2 Assault Squads, and up to 6 Dreadnoughts, while taking *FREE* Razorbacks for 6 Tactical Squads and 2 Devastator Squads. Net result? Up to *12* units which can Drop Pod in, and *8* other units which can form a gun-line/be objective grabbers/holders. With plenty of upgrades, and even room for one or more additional Auxiliary units, you can cram all of that in at 2,000 points; maybe even 1,850 if you go light on the additional Auxiliaries. That is up to 12 *FREE* Drop Pods and 8 *FREE* Razorbacks, which would amount to 860 *FREE* points. In a 2,000 point list, that's up to a +43% advantage in points over your opponent just because of the formation you chose. Pretty broken, huh? CAD gives a bit more choice with regard to the number/type of Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support choices you can take, but does that really compare with getting 860 points of free stuff? Not in the slightest. Surely tournament horror stories about Gladius and Lion's Blade will abound?