Fahlnor Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 ... that our Assault Squads should be given the choice to take either up to two special weapons or up to two power weapons? I mean, these are dedicated assault units and they suck at combat. This bothers me way more than it should! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 No. They're dedicated assault units by virtue of having a pistol and sword. They're not dedicated take all comers like assault terminators. Assault marines are for attacking weak spots in enemy lines and squads with poor armor saves and fighting capability that they can capitalize on. They fit the doctrine outlined in the codex astartes. What you're looking for is essentially the death company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I suppose it would make them different compared to regular Space Marines assault squads. Personally, what I would have liked to see is a rule similar to the Space Marine Biker IC rule. If taking an IC with a Jump Pack made Assault Marines a troops choice, that would be so dang awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrunTeufel Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I would still go with two meltas to be honest. You don't want to be too killy in combat and just get shot to pieces and furious charge, priest +1ws buff along with possible +1int from BSF turns them into a good combat unit anyway. Being able to take melta/flamer makes our assault squads more versatile. They are cheaper as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Assault marines are for attacking weak spots in enemy lines and squads with poor armor saves and fighting capability that they can capitalize on. Like grots and minimal squads of guardsmen? :P Cause that's about the limit to what they can take on presently. Thing is we deal with those far more effectively just by shooting.... Hidden power weapons for 5 pts each like vanguard plus the special weapons they currently have would make them viable again. People seriously underestimate how weak assault is in the current meta. You need far more than a jump pack and 3 A on the charge with AP- attacks to accomplish anything these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagunio Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I suppose it would make them different compared to regular Space Marines assault squads. Personally, what I would have liked to see is a rule similar to the Space Marine Biker IC rule. If taking an IC with a Jump Pack made Assault Marines a troops choice, that would be so dang awesome! Or if full squad of 10 is taken, then they are troops :). Would be win-win-win - 5 man suicide squads are fast, 10 man squads are troops and games workshop gets to sell more kits :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I suppose it would make them different compared to regular Space Marines assault squads. Personally, what I would have liked to see is a rule similar to the Space Marine Biker IC rule. If taking an IC with a Jump Pack made Assault Marines a troops choice, that would be so dang awesome! Or if full squad of 10 is taken, then they are troops . Would be win-win-win - 5 man suicide squads are fast, 10 man squads are troops and games workshop gets to sell more kits Yeah that would've made a lot of sense actually! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Nah, that'd eat into the number of BA tac squad kits they can sell us (a little bit - we'd still buy them to bling up our ASM) As for power weapons, idk, I'd like to be able to take one in the squad but it seems like way too much of an upgrade, especially when we already have DC. If we could get the eviscerator from the new kit, that would be sweet. I'm fine with being the only faction that can take melta weapons, though. Double flamer ASM is cool and all, but double melta with a free drop pod is bloody brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 No. They're dedicated assault units by virtue of having a pistol and sword. Guardian Storm Squads can take both 2 special weapons and two power weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 @ knife&fork: Yes, those are the exact kind of threats I'm talking about. Also moderately sized boy squads, devastators, fire warriors, and basically anything that has a 4+, 5+, or 6+ save and insufficient numbers to lock you into a hideously protracted combat. Orks and nids don't tend to last that long with the number of attacks and crappy saves. @ Xenith: The OP mentioned that assault squads suck at combat. I took this to mean melee combat - their purpose after all. Storm guardians don't adhere to the codex astartes and they're not black Templar crusader squads. Sure, storm guardians and assault marines pretty much have the same role based off their wargear. Comparing between different races like that is great and all but it's not a good grounds for argument in my opinion. Templars shun traditional codex organization so their access to 2 power weapons is acceptable. If GW writes in that the codex squads often split into combat squads like the old days where they have a sergeant and maybe a "leader" in the other squad that they allow to also take upgrades, then sure. Power weapons are for veterans and officers who demonstrate ability. Line guys aren't that since they're line guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 If the codex is the reason assault marines cannot take power weapons...then why can chaos marines not all take power weapons? Relative rarity? If so, then Black Templars would have no more than other chapters. Power weapons are about as rare as plasma pistols in the fluff. Why do tactical squads get upgrades that improve their shooting, yet assault squads do not get upgrades that improve their assault? Surely the primary doctine of the codex astartes is flexibility. Long story short, they should be able to pick 2 weapons, either special shooting or melee weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 According to the new Marine Dex we are "wildly divergent" from the Codex... So... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood & Thunder Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 All they need to do is give our tactical squads access to jump packs. I got into blood angels because I fell in love with fielding 20+ jump marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Why does adherence to the codex astartes by one faction automatically implies the exaggerated opposite in armament in the traitors? You want a reason.. fine.. GW wrote it that way and that's the way it is. You think they should have access to two power weapons because you want them to. I don't want them to because the fluff does not support it. We're at an impasse, you and I. I never mentioned relative rarity - only that officers and marines of demonstrated ability, and thus advancement in the ranks, would have one. This doesn't mean a chapter doesn't have more power weapons sitting around than they have sergeants nor does it imply they have fewer. Veteran squads have greater access to weapons and are distinct in that manner in virtually every book. Tactical squads have their options as per the same reason assault squads have theirs - GW's rules and fluff. That said, tactical squads, although lauded as a generalist squad type, are primarily there for ranged combat. They get ranged upgrades accordingly - 2 per squad plus sergeant. An assault squad is a melee unit and armed for that purpose. They get ranged weapons to reduce the strength of their foe before charging in. It may sound a bit counter-intuitive to arm a melee squad with ranged weapons to reduce the melee workload. Maybe it is. Without whittling the enemy down a bit, assault marines tend to suck. Flamers and plasma pistols reduce the number of enemy combatants that exist to fight back. I guess meltas could be used in that regard, at least if you chose to go after TDA squads or MC, but other than that I think meltas are better suited to attack bikes and speeders. Flexibility doesn't mean you just go to the armory before every battle and hand out toys because every man should be 200% optimized. A company is flexible by virtue of the variety of units available to fulfill a given mission. Each of those individual units is then adaptable in some fashion to better suit a particular foe or mission requirement as well. If you find your assault squads need more power weapons, then maybe you shouldn't be using assault squads for the purpose you are using them. Use vanguard vets, death company, or something better suited to the target. Honestly, I think assault squads could be improved across the board if they had shred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Shred was actually the other option I would have considered when I wrote the original post. Give chainswords Shred and I'd be overjoyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Shred was actually the other option I would have considered when I wrote the original post. Give chainswords Shred and I'd be overjoyed. A good idea, but that might be a bit too much I think. Either +1 S like a scorpion chainsword, or maybe a 6 to wound counts as AP2, similar to bladestorm. I'd like to see assault marines able to beat up hordes easily, while veterans go after jucier targets. Of course, the horde killing cant overlap wth the death company too much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Bladestorm rule definitely, that's good, I like that. Can you imagine my disappointment at getting into this hobby after years of reading fluff to find out that a chainsword was a basic weapon. LIke didn't have a USR to :cuss :cuss up automatically. I just assumed they rended automatically or at least on a 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Make it ap3 on a 6 and that works for me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 Mayb Rend is what I meant... :D I was meaning that a wound roll of a 6 automatically goes through armour, basically. It occurs to me now that shred may be rerolls to wound...? I'm happy with lightning claws having shred. Chainsword, I think, should be ignoring armour on a 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Shred for bolters and rending for chainswords :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Unsure on Shred for bolters, however more wounds but not ignoring armour is a good thing. Maybe S6 AP - ? ;) Spoilers for Unremembered Empire I mean, 10 bolters in a room with Guilliman get within a hears breadth of killing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I would just be happy woth chainswords gettting their AP 5 back. That was nice to just remove Guardsmen, Orks, Gaunts, and other such chaff without some cheeky t shirt save. Plus, are they honestly telling me some puny conscripts fists penetrate as much as "diamond hard razor edged" chainsword teeth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Spoilers for Unremembered Empire I mean, 10 bolters in a room with Guilliman get within a hears breadth of killing him. Rowboat Girlyman : Not my primarch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Shred for bolters and rending for chainswords Sounds good to me. It always bugged me that attacking someone with a sword-that-is-a-chainsaw was only as effective as attacking someone with a stick. And now that Skitarii can cause two wounds with their standard firearm because of radioactive ammo (because mild radiation poisoning kills that fast), it seems silly that a self-propelled exploding bullet only gets you Strength 4. As for new toys for Assault Squads, while Eviscerators are cool (Blood Angels should get them soon enough, I think), I think it would have been better still to allow Power Weapons and Power Fists as alternatives there. Eviscerators seem a bit specific in style and function so some other options may work better thematically for different chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 It makes no sense that vanilla marines get those massive eviserators and flesh tearers leave them in the armoury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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