palin2222 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'm not sure about everyone else, but I'm really looking forward to this formation. What do you think would be the best comp for the formation? I'm not wild about vindicators because their range is so short. and with the formation having to keep so close together I'm worried about hitting my own formation with scattered shots. Preds seems like they would be really good with Autocannon and Las sponsons. Perhaps a little expensive up up 8 Lascannon shots a turn could mess up something things. Whirlwinds sounds like it could also be a solid choice against horde armys, and the cheapest option of the three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Me I'm going for Whirlwinds. I love Whirlwinds and they are the cheapest version of Hammer of Caliban. That and my 3rd Land Raider sits 2000 Km away from me. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elios Harg Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Crusader with multimelta upgrade (it can potms) and 3 dakka preds(AC/2HB). Relatively inexpensive and a crap load of firepower. It'll shred any monstrous creature up to T7. T8 it has trouble with. Against vehicles up to AV11 it will shred, AV12 it will do Ok, AV13-14 will be difficult. I know the tank/monster hunter is redundant, but at least in the formation you won't lose it after the first pred dies. My second favorite would be the vindicators, I would probably again pair with a crusader due to range synergy, though a traditional LR wouldn't be bad either, especially with a MM option. Makes a good tank squadron/MC brood killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erren Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Note that the techmarine also has tank and monster hunter, and that those are conveyed to any unit he joins. He has to start enmarked of course, but then he could jump out to link up with DWK, BK, devestators, etc and really boost them at the cost of dropping your land raider to "just" BS4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elios Harg Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Definitely good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I think that Hammer of Caliban is a very expensive formation, so by taking it, you have to decide choices of your roster at all. Hammer of Caliban has 2 serious issues: 1) All squadron must fire at 1 target, excluding 1 weapon of LR due to POTMS. It slightly mitigates your options, if you are looking for combat efficiency. For example, Whirlwinds are best at shooting at infantry, while LR good for AT role. 2) LR has transport capacity, which you probably want to use (because LR is expensive for just fire support role) and drive it close to enemy. So, you have to move your other tanks closer to enemy too, maintaining the squadron. However, your other tanks are vulnerable for flanking fire due to side 11 AV. Predators lose part of their shooting capabilities by moving, and Whirlwind shouldn't placed near the enemy at all. To solve this 2 issues, you should choice your options wisely. For now I suggest 2 ways of effective use of Hammer of Caliban: 1) LRC with MM + 3 Vindicators. They have similar weapon range. At 1850-2000 points level it is a good addition for your demi-company. You can pack assault squad / vets in LRC, riding them to charge. Vindicators escort LRC and provide no-cover giant ap2 blast. At 2250-2500 points level I will add Azrael to the LRC, providing it a 4++, and take full company for other points. Azrael in this build also provide 10-12 units with 10 ld, which is good. 2) LR + 3 Predators (AC + Las sponsons). This is fire support formation, and with 6 Las shots, 2 linked-Las shots, 6 AC shots it renders enemy MC and vehicles very well. Unfortunately, you kinda lose points for LR transport capacity... But it shoots not bad after all. Due to it's stationary role, it will benefit from Aegis defence line. I think that it is first of all fire support addition for demi- or full company too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 1) LRC with MM + 3 Vindicators. They have similar weapon range. At 1850-2000 points level it is a good addition for your demi-company. You can pack assault squad / vets in LRC, riding them to charge. Vindicators escort LRC and provide no-cover giant ap2 blast. At 2250-2500 points level I will add Azrael to the LRC, providing it a 4++, and take full company for other points. Azrael in this build also provide 10-12 units with 10 ld, which is good. That's a pretty expensive 4+ save there. A much better option would be to not take Azrael, but instead put those points toward taking another Land Raider. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 That's a pretty expensive 4+ save there. A much better option would be to not take Azrael, but instead put those points toward taking another Land Raider. But if we are talking about Lion Blade, the only option to take another Land Raider is by taking another Hammer of Caliban formation, which is even more expensive. Also, LRC in HoC really benefits from this save, because it shields other tanks from incoming fire. And Azrael in HoC not only gives 4++ to LRC, but provide army-wide LD buff (for intended full company), 4++ to melee squad of veterans/assaults he is in, and some hth prowess by himself. Hovewer, I agree with you that Azrael is expensive and I suggest it for 2250-2500 points level games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I think there are several viable options here. I could even see whirlwinds working (cheap; effective against all infantry / most MCs / transports; paired with LR which can POTMS one lascannon, add something in the LR for countercharge rather than charge).The biggest issue for me is that in terms of firepower for points, Hammer of Caliban is never going to be as good as the speeder formation -- which is also super-durable as long as your enemy can't ignore cover. So, I think HoC pairs best with free-transport-tastic Greenwing, in which case your HoC makeup will depend on what you plan to use the Greenwing for. Free backfield razorbacks? Take preds or whirlwinds, also in the backfield. Free drop pods and/or rhinos? Then you probably want the vindicator / LRC combo. Try not to scatter the Vindi shots onto your podding marines. And, if you're not adding a load of transports and tanks from Greenwing / Ironwing, and are instead going Ravenwing-heavy, you're better off with the speeders instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 The biggest issue for me is that in terms of firepower for points, Hammer of Caliban is never going to be as good as the speeder formation -- which is also super-durable as long as your enemy can't ignore cover. Speeders are durable, but they have to jink to save themselfs, which negates their firepower in ongoing turn. And tanks shoot consistently all-day-long, shielded by LR. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cielaq Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 However, your other tanks are vulnerable for flanking fire due to side 11 AV. Just remeber that those vehicles are one unit - if you position them correctly, your enemy must shoot LR first. And if you put Azzy inside, that means in order to get to that AV11 Vinicators he has to destroy AV14 4HP 4++Sv model. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanSturrock Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 With the Darkshroud in the formation, you don't necessarily even have to jink (you can decide based on how much firepower is coming your way). I do get that HoC is more reliable in durability... but compare:5 speeders with typhoon / heavy bolter, + darkshroud = 455 pts. 10 x S8 shots at BS5 = 8.333 x S8 hits, plus 18 x S5 shots at BS5 = 15 x S5 hits. And you get Interceptor. Plus great cover saves from the darkshroud -- sit these guys behind a ruin or forest or free razorbacks, and you don't even need to jink. And you can do all this from 36" away, or at a pinch, against stuff that can shoot back at 36", you can hang back and just shoot the missiles. 3 preds with AC/HB + LRC = 535 pts. 6 x S7 shots = 4 x S7 hits, plus 4 x S6 shots twin-linked at BS5 = 3.888 hits, plus 9 x S5 shots = 6 x S5 hits, plus 6 x S4 twin-linked at BS5 = 5.833 x S4 hits. Plus you have to be in 24".Now, mind you, HoC gets Monster Hunter / Tank Hunter -- but even then, the speeders do better offensively, for 80 points less. The speeders are getting 8.333 x S8 hits to your 7.888 hits at S6-7, as well as 15 x S5 hits to your 11.833 x S4-5 hits -- significant improvement. And what are you fearing that can ignore cover out to 36"? Not much... and if it does show up, you hang back at 48" and shell it with krak missiles. Edit -- forgot about BS5 from the techmarine, sorry. Tweaking accordingly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Just wondering... Why use the hammer of Caliban when you can play either a 3 LR formation OR a tech marines + tank squadron formation that allows you to play up to 3 thunderfire cannons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Hammer of caliban would be great if we got the stalkers, or if you could take the lsv as a squadron in it. It doesn't fit my need beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Or at least if the LR wasn't attached to the tank squadron... Here we just have a costly utterly rigid unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palin2222 Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 Just wondering... Why use the hammer of Caliban when you can play either a 3 LR formation OR a tech marines + tank squadron formation that allows you to play up to 3 thunderfire cannons? If dark angels got access to a thunderfire cannon I would gladly do this, but we dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 IanSturrok, pretty good math here, I see you point. Just want to add, that I will use HoC (if ever) in fire support role with AC-Las Predators and godhammer LR, not dakka preds. Also, I want to point, though speeders are great and I like them, they are highly vulnerable to Eldar dark reapers, Tau broadsides with markers, Legion of the damned, IG las-platoons. So any DA strategist should choose his options in regards of his meta. Just wondering... Why use the hammer of Caliban when you can play either a 3 LR formation OR a tech marines + tank squadron formation that allows you to play up to 3 thunderfire cannons? Because... We play DA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palin2222 Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 IanSturrok, pretty good math here, I see you point. Just want to add, that I will use HoC (if ever) in fire support role with AC-Las Predators and godhammer LR, not dakka preds. Also, I want to point, though speeders are great and I like them, they are highly vulnerable to Eldar dark reapers, Tau broadsides with markers, Legion of the damned, IG las-platoons. So any DA strategist should choose his options in regards of his meta. Just wondering... Why use the hammer of Caliban when you can play either a 3 LR formation OR a tech marines + tank squadron formation that allows you to play up to 3 thunderfire cannons? Because... We play DA? For the Lion! Im with you, The preds I would run would be AutoCannon/Las-spons. Up to 8 Lascannon shots a turn should be enough to wipe some nasty things off the board/draw a lot of fire. Keep a Librarian near by to give the unit Twin linked. Against hordes I might switch to Whirlwinds for pie plates :D I am still sad about no TFC's though :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Just wondering... Why use the hammer of Caliban when you can play either a 3 LR formation OR a tech marines + tank squadron formation that allows you to play up to 3 thunderfire cannons? If dark angels got access to a thunderfire cannon I would gladly do this, but we dont. Just use the vanilla profiles. I wouldn't do that with UM strike Force as it's not DW terminators. But explain me what is the difference between a vanilla WW and a DA one? Same rules, same options... So why would prevent me to play the vanilla formation? It will give me access to thunderfire cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elios Harg Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Because Hammer of Caliban is part of your Lion's Blade detachment and the other is not. Also, some people have issues with "codex bashing" to make their army. Bear in mind that while the LRC needs to be within 24", the other models can behind the land raider. The land raider is about 5" long itself, and you have 4" coherency. So the preds can be at nearly max heavy bolter range while the crusader is still able to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Sure... But I lose what? BS3 instead of BS when I overwatch... What I'm saying is that the Hammer of Caliban is rigid, costly and totally unplayable as the unity doesn't complete each other... To me it looks like the old devastator box (the metal one you know?) : One weapon of each type, no possibility to split the squad... And you want me to shoot at the same target with an HB and a lascan? On the other hand I have a formation that allows me to play the good ol' Ironwing (particularly If I play a company with free RZB)... Why should I hesitate. (please note that it's the same thing with scouts : I can play the vanilla scout formations. I'll get Teleport homer for my termis and a count as Naaman with Telion. Sure they don't have grim resolve but actually it's fluffy : they didnt achieved their formation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Master Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I've got a transport question. If the techmarine has an accompanying servitor retinue, can another squad/IC join them? I.e Crusader with Techmarine and 3 three servitors + Librarian in TDA & DW Command Squad. I would say yes, as the servitors come under the Techmarine HQ slot, but would like peoples opinions DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkProdigy Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Cannot, although the servitors come with the technarine they lack the independent character rule that he has, and therefore cannot be joined to other units that also lack this rule. Other ICs can join the tech and servitors, but not another non-IC unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palin2222 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Sure... But I lose what? BS3 instead of BS when I overwatch... What I'm saying is that the Hammer of Caliban is rigid, costly and totally unplayable as the unity doesn't complete each other... To me it looks like the old devastator box (the metal one you know?) : One weapon of each type, no possibility to split the squad... And you want me to shoot at the same target with an HB and a lascan? On the other hand I have a formation that allows me to play the good ol' Ironwing (particularly If I play a company with free RZB)... Why should I hesitate. (please note that it's the same thing with scouts : I can play the vanilla scout formations. I'll get Teleport homer for my termis and a count as Naaman with Telion. Sure they don't have grim resolve but actually it's fluffy : they didnt achieved their formation) I don't see how its unplayable, I've got a couple ideas how it could be one of the better formations in the codex. As for your other point, wouldn't taking a formation from the space marine codex make you unbound? I'm not sure how that would work, I'm not super familiar with the ally rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palin2222 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Just wondering... Why use the hammer of Caliban when you can play either a 3 LR formation OR a tech marines + tank squadron formation that allows you to play up to 3 thunderfire cannons?If dark angels got access to a thunderfire cannon I would gladly do this, but we dont.Just use the vanilla profiles... ...So why would prevent me to play the vanilla formation? It will give me access to thunderfire cannon. Nothing would stop you from playing vanilla marines, if vanilla marines is what you want to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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